NWA/DAL negotiations update

[PuffDriver]

Couldn't agree more! There is no point in fighting one another on here we are very close to being on the same team. I cant wait till its over so we can ALL move forward.

Thirded.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Is there ANY way I could convince all of you soon-to-be-joined-at-the-hip-for-the-rest-of-your-careers numbskulls to quit sniping at each other?

Give it a rest.
Support your MEC.
Focus on the benefits...not the piques.

The industry is at the precipice. Everything I'm hearing indicates there will be money thrown at both pilot groups to put this together, if we can do it without having a meltdown.

If you're not up for it, fine. You can be one of that 5% of each group that cause us to shake our heads in dismay, until somebody throws a telethon to raise money for their forced sterilization.

Couldn't agree more. Trying to take the high road but it's hard to resist responding to someone who manages to spin the fact that DL 767 rates are the same as DL 757 rates without acknowledging the other way of looking at it --- that the 757 pays the same as the 767, which pay the same as the A330!

As far pay raises go -- that's great. But what protections are some of us junior guys going to get against a 100% pay cut?

 

[nwaredtail]

As far pay raises go -- that's great. But what protections are some of us junior guys going to get against a 100% pay cut?

[/QUOTE]

None, enjoy the airline industry!

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

None, other than recall rights. But you do get the pride of being a delta pilot to tell your neighbors and family. A delta that will finally have a presence in the pacific. A delta that will be the worlds largest airline until the next merger.




As far pay raises go -- that's great. But what protections are some of us junior guys going to get against a 100% pay cut?[/quote]

 

[JohnDoe]

As far pay raises go -- that's great. But what protections are some of us junior guys going to get against a 100% pay cut?

None unfortunately. No-furlough clauses aren't worth the paper they are printed on. 9-11 proved that.

 

[General Lee]

Couldn't agree more. Trying to take the high road but it's hard to resist responding to someone who manages to spin the fact that DL 767 rates are the same as DL 757 rates without acknowledging the other way of looking at it --- that the 757 pays the same as the 767, which pay the same as the A330!

As far pay raises go -- that's great. But what protections are some of us junior guys going to get against a 100% pay cut?

Protections? Well, depending on when the DC9s are parked (they will be eventually), the timing of the SLI is important. Since it is the smallest plane in our combined fleet, I would think even an arbitrator would place those pilots at the bottom (especially if he/she decides to put some 744 pilots at the top). That could help your situation. And, if it is relative seniority, then every time we add a new hire pilot, your relative seniority increases. So, if we do hire "438" pilots this Fall, then you have just placed an addition 400-500 NWA guys below you most likely. (all done with relative seniority). Plenty of NWA people may not like that, but neither did the 17 year USAir Eastie who was placed 2nd from the bottom by Nicelau. It will take awhile until our operating certificates are combined(end of 09), and that will allow some hiring possibly on our side.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

None unfortunately. No-furlough clauses aren't worth the paper they are printed on. 9-11 proved that.

They can always use a force mejeur clause, but they have to prove it. Delta did furlough a large number after 9-11, but a chunk of those were returned fairly quickly because the arbitrator found that Delta did it improperly. Currently, pilots at Delta above TBKANE have no furlough protection that states regardless of the economy or fuel prices, no furloughs. I guess the company could try, but an arbitrator would likely look into that too and see what the exact reasons were. Hopefully our new contract will have something similar.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jetjockey#1]

They can always use a force mejeur clause, but they have to prove it. Delta did furlough a large number after 9-11, but a chunk of those were returned fairly quickly because the arbitrator found that Delta did it improperly. Currently, pilots at Delta above TBKANE have no furlough protection that states regardless of the economy or fuel prices, no furloughs. I guess the company could try, but an arbitrator would likely look into that too and see what the exact reasons were. Hopefully our new contract will have something similar.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Unfortunately General the no-furlough clause is really not worth the paper is written on. The reason is, it doesn’t cost the company money, let me explain. If tomorrow they furlough 1000 pilots, they have no further responsibility to these folks, I understand re-training and so on. However, how about instead of a no furlough clause, a clause stating that furloughed pilots will keep receiving medical benefits as any active pilot, and he/she will keep receiving B fund/401k contributions based on 70 hours from the equipment they were flying up to the furlough. Then and only then they would think about furloughing pilots.

 

[General Lee]

Unfortunately General the no-furlough clause is really not worth the paper is written on. The reason is, it doesn’t cost the company money, let me explain. If tomorrow they furlough 1000 pilots, they have no further responsibility to these folks, I understand re-training and so on. However, how about instead of a no furlough clause, a clause stating that furloughed pilots will keep receiving medical benefits as any active pilot, and he/she will keep receiving B fund/401k contributions based on 70 hours from the equipment they were flying up to the furlough. Then and only then they would think about furloughing pilots.

That is not really correct, since the arbitrator actually recalled those Force Mejeur 2 guys back with pay. So, it did cost them money in the end, and they had to keep paying for them when they didn't have the spots to put them. It made them think twice about furloughing without cause. But, I agree with what you are saying, it would be better for us to have something in our new contract like medical benefits paid by the company, or 401K contributions for the DC fund paid during furlough at 70 hours. Sure, that would be great.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

One big thing the NWA guys will also benefit from is the fact that the furloughees did not accrue longevity on their "dream vacation" while our guys did.

On the DC-9 jumpseat the other day, the guy in the right seat had less accrued longevity than I have at DL....and he was an early 2001 hire.

All our furloughees came back on the year pay they would have been had they been on property the entire time.

So on top of the % pay increase to bring their contract up to ours, they will get a huge pay increase to change their longevity to where it rightfully should be.

 

[nwaredtail]

So on top of the % pay increase to bring their contract up to ours, they will get a huge pay increase to change their longevity to where it rightfully should be.

[/QUOTE]

Yup, negotiated by our NC, (mostly) and DAL management. You should be happy that your fellow pilots are getting a raise. Are you not?

It didn't come out of DALPA back pocket, so why do you care besides the fact your seniority may be affected?

 

[General Lee]

[/quote]Yup, negotiated by our NC, (mostly) and DAL management. You should be happy that your fellow pilots are getting a raise. Are you not?

It didn't come out of DALPA back pocket, so why do you care besides the fact your seniority may be affected?[/quote]

If he is on the DC9, it probably won't.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

Protections? Well, depending on when the DC9s are parked (they will be eventually), the timing of the SLI is important.

So when are all of your gas-guzzling MD-80's going to be parked? How old are your 767's? When will they be parked?

Don't worry General. Not to pick on just you. Nobody seems to want to address the fleet incompatibility as well.

What will the new Delta do with all the NWA Airbuses? What is the fuel burn of a 747? Will they be grounded?

If you simply answer that Delta will just "replace" these aircraft, where are the details?

Where the hell is Delta (not far from yet another bankruptcy right now) going to come up with capital and/or financing? If they are Boeing replacements, what production line will they come from?

You guys are amazing how you think that the size of this combined airline will stay static or grow. You are all banking on things to fall into place that have historically NEVER fallen into place after mergers.

This current hiring boom Delta just went through was a result of a huge expansion gamble. What if things don't work out as planned? Who will be the furlough fodder for that debacle? What is Delta goes into BK again? Where will the furloughs come from?

The Delta Family is about to become the Hatfields and McCoys.

 

[General Lee]

So when are all of your gas-guzzling MD-80's going to be parked? How old are your 767's? When will they be parked?

Don't worry General. Not to pick on just you. Nobody seems to want to address the fleet incompatibility as well.

What will the new Delta do with all the NWA Airbuses? What is the fuel burn of a 747? Will they be grounded?

If you simply answer that Delta will just "replace" these aircraft, where are the details?

Where the hell is Delta (not far from yet another bankruptcy right now) going to come up with capital and/or financing? If they are Boeing replacements, what production line will they come from?

You guys are amazing how you think that the size of this combined airline will stay static or grow. You are all banking on things to fall into place that have historically NEVER fallen into place after mergers.

This current hiring boom Delta just went through was a result of a huge expansion gamble. What if things don't work out as planned? Who will be the furlough fodder for that debacle? What is Delta goes into BK again? Where will the furloughs come from?

The Delta Family is about to become the Hatfields and McCoys.

Frank, you actually ran an airline? Wow, you don't know much. The MD88s are newer than AA MD80s, have autothrottles and FMS to help with fuel burn, and can carry more people so the CASM is lower. After our BK the lease rates were reduced $200,000 a month lower than they were, making them more profitable. They are now used on some INTL routes from ATL---which can be a better fit than the 738 or 757 on certain routes.

How old are the 767s? Well, we are adding winglets to them. Does that tell you something? That will help out on fuel burn, and they are good cargo birds also. Rumor has it that some of them will get a cargo conversion and go to ANC. (UPS flies them from ANC to Osaka, Seoul, etc) We will still have those valuable cargo slots when we merge you know, and the 742s are getting really old. If UPS is getting rid of them, I bet we will eventually. The 744s will probably be converted to cargo also. Even Air France announced their 744s retirements---they are adding 777-300ERs at a fast rate to replace them.

Will we replace all of the old planes? Probably---with 777LRs and 787s for the widebodies, and 737NGs and some 100 seater Boeing may produce for the narrowbodies. We supposedly will have the same hubs (according to RA today anyway)---so I think we will have close to the same numbers for fleet. It will take awhile to replace though, and in the meantime we will supplement our fleet with fairly new used aircraft if needed--like the 20 MD90s that could be coming from Saudia. They are more fuel efficient than other planes out there, and could provide the gap.

Who will be furloughed you ask? If we on the DL side park our planes before we combine the certificates, then our side will furlough. Same goes for NWA. It will take awhile anyway to get the SLI done it seems.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dtfl]

Yup, negotiated by our NC, (mostly) and DAL management. You should be happy that your fellow pilots are getting a raise. Are you not?

It didn't come out of DALPA back pocket, so why do you care besides the fact your seniority may be affected?[/quote]

No junior pilot will be happy with a temporary pay raise, only to be furloughed because the DC9s were parked AFTER the SLI.

 

[dtfl]

Are you joking? NWA did more "cleaning house" in BK than any other airline. That's precisely why we have the lowest operating cost in the business. Only a few years ago we had a fleet of 165 DC9's. We had almost 500+ total aircraft, while now we have 300 and some change.

If you think Delta is still going to receive those aircraft this year with fuel $130 + you're high.

and you think you will receive the coveted 787?
And I'd like to see those #s proving you have the lowest cost in the business. Legacy business, maybe. Nevermind..I'll research it.....

 

[dtfl]

Stick to the point.... What does the equip have anything to do with integrating a sen list? NOTHING.

On the other issue, you just answered my point. New hires are getting the 767 because it sucks. Blame it on resv rules, base, whatever, it sucks. To be junior at DAL on the 767 is not good. Just like being junior on the DC9 sucks.

Thats NOT what he said. New hires are getting the 767 (and MD88) to the NYC area....because NYC/LGA/EWR SUCK.

 

[Superpilot92]

Yup, negotiated by our NC, (mostly) and DAL management. You should be happy that your fellow pilots are getting a raise. Are you not? raise or some of the previous money back?

It didn't come out of DALPA back pocket, so why do you care besides the fact your seniority may be affected?

No junior pilot will be happy with a temporary pay raise, only to be furloughed because the DC9s were parked AFTER the SLI.

If the DC9s are just "parked" after the SLI then its directly because of the DAL scope language. It is directly against the NWA scope language to just park all the DC9s without parking 70 seaters first. I know it sounds better for your argument but thats the truth.

 

[Schwanker]

Protections? Well, depending on when the DC9s are parked (they will be eventually)......
Bye Bye--General Lee

So will all 8 (strike that), all 10 of your 777s.

Schwanker

 

[~~~^~~~]

nevermind....