Northwest Flight Attendants Reject Second Tentative Agreement

[DTW320]

Come on 320AV8R....pilot groups at Bankrupt carriers aren't supposed to give up anything! BK is a great opportunity for contract enhancements! It's OK though to forego enhancements in order to help-out the pilots at your regionals. No really.....some 9E and XJ pilots told me all about how it works...

Recalls start in October. And that decision was made BEFORE the pension legislation passed last night.

 

[JP4user]

Really a warped world when some pft twerp pcl_128 is lecturing mainline guys about the industry.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Newco did not happen. If you knew NWA's definition of Newco and compared it to the TA you would have a CHANCE of not looking like a complete idiot here.

Talking about sounding like an idiot. I can't believe that you are really that stupid WTF do you think Compass is?
If blaming the regionals for your lack of vision is your thing? Then go right ahead. I remind you that because of the erosion of your jobs a lot of NWA furlough's had to come here.
Whatever twist you want to put on it. The fact is that you gave up on MORE outsourcing, Newco, Compass= $hit sandwich.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Really a warped world when some pft twerp pcl_128 is lecturing mainline guys about the industry.

Go lurk in the corporate forum and entertain each other with your Driving The Big Limo stories there, this is a Red Tail matter.



You have to admit,That's funny right there.

 

[JP4user]

Go lurk in the corporate forum and entertain each other with your Driving The Big Limo stories there, this is a Red Tail matter.



You have to admit,That's funny right there.

Sorry can't find that thread. Red Tail issues hit pretty close to home so I will stay right here and continue to watch the fun. Did the pft comment make you a little uneasy?

 

[Thomas39]

Have some compassion for stupid animals

Come on guys, don't be so hard on PCL and Dumb Pilot.

They can't help it. They are too stupid to argue with. It is obvious from their posts they have never read our TA, do not have the mental capacity to understand what the rest of the industry gave up in scope in comparison to us, and quite possably can't read, speak or understand english. (I thought that was a prerequisite for a private pilot certificate). They are just responding to the rumors that fly around our feeder carriers. Try to think of them as the stupid gorilla you get to look at when you go to the zoo. Have pitty on their feeble little minds but try to ignore them.

 

[DTW320]

Talking about sounding like an idiot. I can't believe that you are really that stupid WTF do you think Compass is?
If blaming the regionals for your lack of vision is your thing? Then go right ahead. I remind you that because of the erosion of your jobs a lot of NWA furlough's had to come here.
Whatever twist you want to put on it. The fact is that you gave up on MORE outsourcing, Newco, Compass= $hit sandwich.

WTF do I think Compass is? I think it is a concession brought about by being in BK. I think it is FAR better than what NWA was proposing in their original demand.

The FACT is you can't/haven't produced a SINGLE comparison point between the current TA and what NWA was asking before....despite several requests. The FACT, apparently, is Thomas39 is exactly right and you don't let your complete lack of knowledge of a subject prevent you from living up to your screen name here with every post.

Psssst: In your cute little "profile" to the left, under "ratings" you ask: "WITCH one do you need?It is a phone call away". Besides that being revealing as to your TRUE qualifications, I was wondering if a Warlock or a Wizard could get one by phone too?

Sorry Thomas39, you are right....I should just ignore them....but, like talking to that crazy person on the sidewalk downtown, it's just too much fun!

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Did the pft comment make you a little uneasy?

Back in 1980 my idea of Pay for Training was to get the keys of the plane from the old man's pocket! just messing with you a little JP4, I did the corporate gig for many years too.

It is obvious from their posts they have never read our TA, do not have the mental capacity to understand what the rest of the industry gave up in scope in comparison to us,

I don't know bro.! The argument of our crappy TA is less crappy than other TA's out there is kind off trying to feel better about loosing our careers little by little Isn't it?
The other day my kid started talking pilot and I just don't know if where this career is going is what I want for him. Something needs to be done to stop the hemorrhage and the way to do it is to start working together, ALL drivers of a particular brand under the same list, contract, work rules. But I don't know, it seems that the way that our association is structured is working more towards keeping us divided (Management's dream). Where will it stop? it's already up to 76 seats. Where is it going? Back in the day we used to say that the difference between Mainline and the regionals was paddles.
Considering all the circumstances, maybe your right. It could have being a lot worst. but maybe, we could have being talking about the NWA pilot group only, instead of outsourced work. Maybe the right seat of the SAAB should be the entry level A/C at NWA? Could that scenario put me out of a job or downgrade me to F/O on the SAAB when all the dust settles? possibly. But you know what? I would do it just to start turning this thing around in a heart beat!
Didn't mean any disrespect, just tired after having lived two downturns.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

In your cute little "profile" to the left, under "ratings" you ask: "WITCH one do you need?It is a phone call away". Besides that being revealing as to your TRUE qualifications, I was wondering if a Warlock or a Wizard could get one by phone too?

Thank you for bringing it to my attention skipper. Having three languages in my head gets messy. After all Dumb Pilot says it all.

 

[CubanSmoker]

You guys need a hobby.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

This is weird, it appears pinnacle is allowing compass to operate one of it's crj's under the compass flag using pinnacles resources.

 

[IB6 UB9]

The ultimate excuse of the mainline pilots. They negotiate the erosion of their QOL, they negotiate the out sourcing of their flying, they bring the bar lower each time. And then turn around and point fingers at the people that accept the positions that THEY CREATED.
You where too chicken $hit to fight and die for your rights while accepting mediocre conditions and at the same time putting language that hurt Mesaba jobs directly while accepting what your MEC said It would be a "Die on this hill issue" Newco.
Hypocrisy at its best

I just changed your name to Smart Pilot.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The ultimate excuse of the mainline pilots. They negotiate the erosion of their QOL, they negotiate the out sourcing of their flying, they bring the bar lower each time. And then turn around and point fingers at the people that accept the positions that THEY CREATED.
You where too chicken $hit to fight and die for your rights while accepting mediocre conditions and at the same time putting language that hurt Mesaba jobs directly while accepting what your MEC said It would be a "Die on this hill issue" Newco.
Hypocrisy at its best

You act like mainline should of fallen on its sword to protect scope that was already given up at every other bankrupt carrier. So tell me why liquidation of mainline would have helped mesaba or pinnacle.

 

[PCL_128]

You act like mainline should of fallen on its sword to protect scope that was already given up at every other bankrupt carrier. So tell me why liquidation of mainline would have helped mesaba or pinnacle.

There's your problem: you assume that standing up for yourselves would have resulted in the liquidation of Northwest Airlines. I don't believe that for a second. If you had rejected the POS TA, then another TA would have been negotiated in short order with more favorable terms. They played on your emotions perfectly and you fell for it.

 

[xjlifer]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[320AV8R]

If you had rejected the POS TA, then another TA would have been negotiated in short order with more favorable terms. They played on your emotions perfectly and you fell for it.

Since you are so prolific, can I please get some good stock tips from you?

BTW, the 3 financial analysts, 2 or 3 law firms, ALPA legal reps, reps from Peter J Soloman, something-Weiss & Simon, most of the NWA MEC, the NWA ALPA Negotiating team, the MEC Chairman & over two-thirds of the +/- 6000 line pilots disagreed with the opinion you state above. But I guess you're just better informed.

 

[TurboAWD]

No, he can just see better because he is looking from the outside.
BTW, isn't that what happed to the FA's?

 

[ExAF]

CAll a Waaaaambulance

Didn't mean any disrespect, just tired after having lived two downturns.

My heart bleeds for you. Try making it to mainline and living through 2 furloughs...tiring...very tiring. As a matter of fact, I've been furloughed 42% of my time at the majors. At least you are still working. Everybody has their cross to bear. And no, I'm not whining or asking for sympathy. I blame management and corporate greed, not other pilot groups.

 

[Thomas39]

Why don't YOU stand up for yourself at Pinnacle where you have the distinction of having one of the worse contracts in the industry. Why didn't YOUR pilot group negotiate and obtain a better contract than you have now?Put your money where your mouth is buddy!! How many pilot strikes has Pinnacle had? How many times has NWA pilots stood up and struck when/where necessary? Do a little research Jacka$$

 

[PCL_128]

Why don't YOU stand up for yourself at Pinnacle where you have the distinction of having one of the worse contracts in the industry. Why didn't YOUR pilot group negotiate and obtain a better contract than you have now?Put your money where your mouth is buddy!!

We are. We have already turned down several concessionary proposals from management.

The contract we have now was one of the best for a turboprop operator when it was signed ('99 when we were an all-Saab fleet).

 

[YourPilotFriend]

My heart bleeds for you. Try making it to mainline and living through 2 furloughs...tiring...very tiring. As a matter of fact, I've been furloughed 42% of my time at the majors. At least you are still working. Everybody has their cross to bear. And no, I'm not whining or asking for sympathy. I blame management and corporate greed, not other pilot groups.

You can't blame management they are trying to make the most money possible. Pilots are trying to make the most flight time. Flight time in exchange for pay, that's why you can blame pilots.

 

[320AV8R]

Why don't YOU stand up for yourself at Pinnacle where you have the distinction of having one of the worse contracts in the industry. Why didn't YOUR pilot group negotiate and obtain a better contract than you have now?Put your money where your mouth is buddy!! How many pilot strikes has Pinnacle had? How many times has NWA pilots stood up and struck when/where necessary? Do a little research Jacka$$

THOMAS39 FOR PRESIDENT. :laugh:

 

[320AV8R]

No, he can just see better because he is looking from the outside.

Yea.... with sooooooooo much accurate information. Did he sit through over 10 hours of meetings / briefings, talk to Reps, Negotiators, read reams of sh!t that came in the mail? You guys "out there" have only a fraction of the information. You hear a "nugget" of information, & treat it as fact. You need to separate the fact from fiction.

BTW, isn't that what happed to the FA's?

If you mean, did they "get the correct information".....maybe. They just changed unions. ALMOST ONE HALF of their membership is in BAD STANDING. Only 30% of their members bothered to vote on the last TA. Sixty percent of those voting...... like 35% of total members voted the TA down..... by 629 votes.

Yea.... they have a reeeeal SOLID network...... everyone is better informed on the "outside".

 

[Dumb Pilot]

My heart bleeds for you. Try making it to mainline and living through 2 furloughs...tiring...very tiring. As a matter of fact, I've been furloughed 42% of my time at the majors. At least you are still working. Everybody has their cross to bear. And no, I'm not whining or asking for sympathy. I blame management and corporate greed, not other pilot groups.

Preaching to the choir my dear sir. Rug pulled under my feet from three carriers and more corporate gigs lost due to downsizing or consolidation that I care to remember. I do enjoy and appreciate the fact that I have a job here at PCL. What I cannot comprehend to save my life is how is it possible that ALPA keeps negotiating the outsourcing of Airline jobs to other carriers while furloughing 600 pilots with thousands of hours of experience and at the same time they hire pilots with 500 hours to fly jet A/C's financed by the main carrier, to transport passengers from the main carrier with main line brand. All represented by THE SAME UNION. When are we going to wake up and work together towards Brand Scope? Is up to jets with 76 seats now flying all over North America. Explain to me how a flight from MSP to BOS in a fully automated state of the art transport jet is a "Regional" flight? Even if it has 50-76 seats. We allowed the masterful management's of this Brand carriers to sell us into the idea that these where "regional jets" and they should be operated outside the main line and the pilots of the mainline carriers fell and continue to fall for the same smoke and mirrors story, and the argument is. "Oh it could have being worst."

 

[Lear70]

This is weird, it appears pinnacle is allowing compass to operate one of it's crj's under the compass flag using pinnacles resources.

Smoke crack lately?

That's Mesaba, get it straight...

PCL has pretty strong scope language regarding aircraft being operated by Pinnacle ops (dispatch, scheduling, operating certificate). Ain't no how no way a PCL CRJ is being operated BY PINNACLE OPERATIONS by anyone except PCL pilots.

Management asked for that allowance about 2 years ago, the MEC told management to go pound sand.

 

[Lear70]

PCL_128 The battle to save this profession has to be from the bottom up.

That's a bunch of avoidist ********, and you know it. It takes BOTH SIDES negotiating TO A MIDDLE GROUND in order to protect careers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: until BOTH sides are working towards THE SAME GOAL, requiring ONE UNION, nothing is going to happen, they will continue to "divide and conquer.

Telling the regionals they bear the SOLE RESPONSIBILITY here is assinine and downright COWARDLY.

9E and XJ were profitable and are still profitable yet your wages could be sliding. If you can't capitalize on your own fortunes, how do expect someone to do it for you?

Ummm, do you know **************** ABOUT MESABA'S CURRENT FIGHT? Their management STOLE the money and the judge let them. PCL is currently WORKING to capitalize on their own fortune.

Why don't you actually RESEARCH before you post and stick your foot in your mouth?

Now both 9E and XJ are in a position to walk out tomorrow and cripple the NWA operation.

*snicker* Not quite. PCL and XJ represent about 25% of NWA's DOMESTIC departures and about 8% of Northwest's TOTAL DAILY departures.

"Cripple the NWA operation"? Get real...

Is that not enough to bargin for the scope you so desperately seek? I have said on here time and time again brand scope would save this profession,

You're right, it would. Unfortunately NWA mainline keeps giving it up.

I'll say it again, PCL has an EXCELLENT scope clause in their contract. "ALL aircraft operated by Pinnacle Airlines will be flown by Pinnacle Airlines seniority list pilots". Period. NWA gave up MORE scope in this contract.

Point that finger where it belongs.

The problem we had with striking now as opposed to 98 was the fact that in 98 the company wasn't going anywhere. Today a strike would have finished the airline.

That's funny, I was taught when bargaining NEVER to settle for any company's best final offer, and always be willing to walk away. What PROOF do you have that it would have "finished the airline"? Did it happen for the mechanics? Is it going to happen for the F/A's? Nope.

The wages were still livable that we had to choose today. The choice of no income verses a top middle class income is a no brainer. You guys however are in a fight against wages that not even Mcdonalds employees would accept. This is not the fault of mainline pilots.

McDonald's employees? I made $75,000 my 5th year at PCL before I left. I would hardly call that poverty level. Certainly could have been better, but again, get your facts straight.

 

[Lear70]

In your own words: "Put down the crack pipe". I walked in 98. Did you?

Nope, wasn't in the NWA family at the time.

Whatever fantasies you conjured at 9E and now Airtran are quite vivid. Please elaborate on the exact improvements reached that ended the strike under pressure from Bruce Lindsey and the Clinton admin.

Pressure? Absolutely. Final agreement better than the pre-strike proposal? Absolutely. Why don't YOU go research it... I was paying attention.

Thanks....since you know all about the differences between the prestrike offer and the final TA. I was there.....you were flyin a Lear somewhere.

No, I was a 727 Captain, smarta*s. See Avatar.

How bout a multi-million dollar fine for ALPA that would be passed down to every pilot on the property? Ask your AA buds about that.

I don't have any Sky Nazi friends. I hate that airline... avoid them like the plague, have over 80,000 miles on AA I can't use from when I worked for Flexjet, would rather buy a full-fare ticket on Southwest or my own airline.

They received a fine because the union underhandedly ENDORSED a slowdown. INDIVIDUAL refusal to work under an imposed contract is not the same thing, the union could scream for workers to return to work all they wanted; YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE whether to work under that imposed contract is NOT something the judge could fine the NWA MEC for. Comparing apples to oranges.

 

[ExAF]

Blame?

You can't blame management they are trying to make the most money possible. Pilots are trying to make the most flight time. Flight time in exchange for pay, that's why you can blame pilots.

I can blame anybody I want if that's OK with you. There's a difference between making the most money possible and a kick in the balls. Believe it or not my undergraduate and post-graduate major was management and organizational management. The @ssholes running companies these days contradict everything that has ever been taught in business schools about management. Yeah I know there is a difference between "the real world" and school. I do have some management experience in the real world too, albeit not in the airline business. Anyway, management today has forgotten everything about ethics, values, corporate citizenship and human decency. They could learn a thing or two from Herb when it comes to the old adage "Take care of your employees and they will take care of your customers and the company." I'm pretty sure most pilots aren't looking for more flight time, they want more pay for less flight time. You can blame whomever you want; I'll stick to management and corporate greed. Cheers.

 

[DTW320]

Pressure? Absolutely. Final agreement better than the pre-strike proposal? Absolutely. Why don't YOU go research it... I was paying attention.

I'm sure you were paying something, but it apparently wasn't attention. I was drawing a paycheck from NWA at the time and still am. Here's what you said:

NWA took a strike, then negotiated MUCH better than their "last best pre-strike offer", or don't you remember that part?

The post-strike TA had a few minor improvements."MUCH" better? BS, and any NW pilot, on property in 98 ,reading your tripe knows that BS gives you ZERO credibility in this. I still have the pre/post comparison from 98. Perhaps YOU would like to give me an example of the "MUCH" better terms. Thanks....

That's funny, I was taught when bargaining NEVER to settle for any company's best final offer, and always be willing to walk away. What PROOF do you have that it would have "finished the airline"? Did it happen for the mechanics? Is it going to happen for the F/A's? Nope.

Really? Did your "teacher" say that applies equally and with same effect when negotiating in Bankruptcy under the legal threat of having the entire contract thrown in the trash? NWA spent over a year preparing to replace the Mechs, but you knew that with your vast inside knowledge of NWA. F/As? Lets just agree that the final chapter of their story has not been written yet and that its premature to declare victory for them. They are currently working under imposed terms worse than what they just voted down. What's that term you like? "Apples to Oranges".

 

[DTW320]

They received a fine because the union underhandedly ENDORSED a slowdown.

Actually, they received the fine for a sickout not a slowdown.

INDIVIDUAL refusal to work under an imposed contract is not the same thing, the union could scream for workers to return to work all they wanted; YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE whether to work under that imposed contract is NOT something the judge could fine the NWA MEC for.

Wrong. Any large scale no show would have been viewed as ALPA defying the inevitable court order to cease and desist and a fine could certainly be levied as well as jail time for Reps. Also, anyone doing so would have been INDIVIDUALLY terminated. That was clear. Failure to come to work under a legally binding imposed contract would be the same as refusing to come to work under the best contract out there.