Northwest Flight Attendants Reject Second Tentative Agreement

[PCL_128]

Whatever, pal. I guess WE sold out, but the UAL, USAir & DAL guys didn't.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.

No, all of you sold out. NWA was just the worst example of it.

 

[320AV8R]

No, all of you sold out. NWA was just the worst example of it.

Wow....great insight from the RJ captain.

Maybe you can negotiate a 100% pay raise and show us how it's done!

 

[ironspud]

Wow....great insight from the RJ captain.

Maybe you can negotiate a 100% pay raise and show us how it's done!

Well-RJ captain is much higher on the food chain than a little wet-eared co-pilot (at any level).
Show you how it's done? Nah..... purty much impossible.
Still hidin' behind your FA's there, Skippy?

 

[PCL_128]

Wow....great insight from the RJ captain.

Maybe you can negotiate a 100% pay raise and show us how it's done!

If you don't want to listen to the lowly RJ Captain (because mainline arrogance has served you so well thus far ), then perhaps you should listen to NWA A330 Captain Ray Miller, Council 20 Chairman. His scathing attack against that TA was far and above anything I've ever said. Too bad more of you don't have the common sense that Captain Miller has.

 

[Lear70]

Here you go, dumbsh*t:

What do you base your statement on? Did the UAL, USAir, & DAL pilots cave also? Or could it have something to do with:

--the industry being in the toilet since 9-11

--the industry losing more in the last few years than it has ever made...ever

--oil being at all time highs.....the highest ever

--LCCs operating at a lower cost, because their employee costs are lower

Your own statement, buddy.

Control yourself. I stated that the FINANCIAL DYNAMICS of the LCC model put pressure upon ALL Legacy carriers to restructure. Why the f*ck do you think UAL, DAL, USAir & NWA went into CH 11? Get A fukkin clue.

No, that's NOT what you said. Read your own quote and get your own fu*king clue.

And NOW you're going to blame the LCC's as the SOLE reason the legacy carriers filed Ch. 11? Smoke crack lately?

Whatever, pal. I guess WE sold out, but the UAL, USAir & DAL guys didn't.

I didn't say that. YOU are the one who dragged the other airlines into this, I was reminding you that the NWA did indeed cave on their TA. Since this posts is about NWA flight attendants and red tails in general, I didn't see the need to draw them into it, but if you insist, yeah, they caved, too.

Read my post again and actually THINK about your response this time, based upon your previous responses and try to make them all agree with each other. I know it will be difficult, but you'll manage somehow.

It's pretty funny how a bunch of regional and LCC guys always make you look stupid. Wait a second, you do a pretty good job of that on your own. You and YPF and the dipwit from YIP should probably get a crashpad together.

 

[320AV8R]

Well-RJ captain is much higher on the food chain than a little wet-eared co-pilot (at any level).

Really?

NWA 747-400 FO $123 /hr

PCL RJ CA $ 76 /hr

www.airlinepilotpay.com

 

[320AV8R]

If you don't want to listen to the lowly RJ Captain (because mainline arrogance has served you so well thus far ), then perhaps you should listen to NWA A330 Captain Ray Miller, Council 20 Chairman. His scathing attack against that TA was far and above anything I've ever said. Too bad more of you don't have the common sense that Captain Miller has.

Yea....too bad.

It's not just me, 64% of the pilot group didn't want to listen to him.

A lot of hot air, but no plan. When pressed on the issue, he could not explain the results of his suggestions.

WRT us being the worst sellouts......

--our NB guys have work rules, trip rigs, min days, etc...... the NB UAL guys don't.

--our sick leave is capped at 1200 hours...... the America West guys top out at 500 hrs a year.... Alaska at 800 hours.

--we top out at 40 vacation days per year.... USAir is at 21 days.

--we are holding onto our pension...for now. The UAL, USAir & DAL guys didn't.

 

[320AV8R]

Here you go, dumbsh*t:

Get fuct....'m not a dumb********************.

--LCCs operating at a lower cost, because their employee costs are lower

Your own statement, buddy.


Quote:
Control yourself. I stated that the FINANCIAL DYNAMICS of the LCC model put pressure upon ALL Legacy carriers to restructure. Why the f*ck do you think UAL, DAL, USAir & NWA went into CH 11? Get A fukkin clue.
No, that's NOT what you said. Read your own quote and get your own fu*king clue.


Dude-

EMPLOYEE COSTS and FINANCIAL DYNAMICS ARE THE SAME THING.

The point is.....the LCCs had a LOWER COST STRUCTURE.....due to LOWER employee costs, LOWER aircraft lease rates, LOWER labor costs (less employees per aircraft, etc).

That's the way they structured themselves. The legacies were old-school dinosaur models. UAL had five times the employees as SWA to do the same thing. The LCCs had a system that worked, & the Legacies had to adapt.

UAL & DAL pilots were making big coin...... for a little while. Then the ax fell. It was UAL, USAir, NWA & DAL.

The financil model transformed the Legacies into big LCCs. Just like the big US automakers after the intrduction of Toyota, Subaru, Honda, etc...

Relax.......

 

[xjhawk]

wow

Wow....great insight from the RJ captain.

Maybe you can negotiate a 100% pay raise and show us how it's done!

mmmm, lets see, pinnacle is fighting the hard fight right now, i as of now totally respect those pilots than those of NWA, lets see, alpas fearless leader went on and on about brand scope and one of the main things NWA did in their last contract, besides take industry lows on everything.....was to specifically take away jobs from Mesaba......i.e take the Avros away and create yet another feeder.....great job.....considering when 90% of the pilots there will not take a job at Compass.....pay is too low....wow, i think i will apply there, get a seniority number, make more pay, and then start bitchin cause thats what NWA people do the best.......Oh, and I personally do not think any NWA pilot has the right to bash any SWA pilot......seriously......look at what they have......

 

[ironspud]

Really?

NWA 747-400 FO $123 /hr

PCL RJ CA $ 76 /hr

www.airlinepilotpay.com

What's your point Skippy?

 

[320AV8R]

What's your point Skippy?

Your comments: Well-RJ captain is much higher on the food chain than a little wet-eared co-pilot (at any level).

I disagree.

 

[320AV8R]

mmmm, lets see, pinnacle is fighting the hard fight right now

Explain how.

was to specifically take away jobs from Mesaba......i.e take the Avros away and create yet another feeder.....

How do you justify your claim?

The Mesaba guys are dealing with the MAIR Mgmt. How is that related to the NWA pilot agreement?

Did we give a certain amount of money to help park the AVROs? Get real.

Just because someone is following you, doesnt mean you're paranoid.

 

[xjhawk]

how are they fighting the hard fight? lets see, a long battle with their management to prevent even lower pay and work rules than what they already have.......oh and about the avros, yes they were leaving, but did your new agreement with NWa specifically say.......36 jets will go to compass specifically to replace the 35 avros at mesaba..........real your own agreements buddy.....i read that part at least...and know what that was....a stab in the back.

I will not stoop to bashing someone who is working hard to make thier lives better......or doing what they were told do make it in the industry.......(i.e working at a regional to pay the industry dues.....) but know this, just because you make more money and fly a bigger aircraft than someone, does not make you better, and definately not a better pilot. get off your highhorse and look in the mirror, i also understand that NWa pilots have made choices to protect their jobs......but at what expense?

 

[XJohXJ]

Look, putting the legal hocus-pocus to one side, Mesaba is wholly dictated to by NWA. NWA management controlls Mesaba, period. They hand pick the toadies to come over to our little cave, and implement whatever policies Steenland, or whoever-the-next-head-prick is, wants. What happens at NWA completely and absolutely determines what happens to us at Mesaba. There is no REAL independence for us whatsoever. So yes, we do care what you guys do under your roof, because your plumbing dumps directly on to us on the way to the river.

 

[320AV8R]

......oh and about the avros, yes they were leaving, but did your new agreement with NWa specifically say.......36 jets will go to compass specifically to replace the 35 avros at mesaba..........real your own agreements buddy.....i read that part at least...and know what that was....a stab in the back.

OK.... buddy, but you had better read it again. Here is what it says:

[FONT=Arial,Bold]NUMERICAL LIMITATIONS[/FONT]
After analyzing NWA’s wants and needs for 76-seat feeder flying, and through direct negotiations with management, a maximum number of 55 aircraft configured with 51–76 seats was agreed to. This number approximates the number needed to replace the remaining 35 AVRO aircraft, upgrade some existing 50-seat aircraft routes, and perhaps explore some new route opportunities. An increase in this cap to a total of 90 51–76-seat aircraft was agreed to in the event NWA creates an affiliate feeder airline (which we currently refer to as “SJet”). The additional 35 aircraft will allow NWA to expand into new markets and rationalize current flying by adding frequency and/or shifting DC-9s to other routes.

The TA also allows for (i) an increase above the 90-aircraft limit on a one-for-one basis when 77–110-seat aircraft are introduced to the mainline, and (ii) an annual increase of three aircraft after the amendable date provided that at least 10 77–110-seat aircraft are in active service at the mainline (annual increase of five aircraft if at least 15 77–110-seat aircraft are in service at the mainline).

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]51–76-Seat Small Jets (SJ) at Nonaffiliate Feeder Carrier[/FONT]
• Aircraft may be certified for up to 86 seats (90 for the
Long Range CRJ900), but may only be configured with
up to 76 seats
• Maximum of 55 aircraft allowed (lower cap)
�� Includes current 35 AVRO aircraft at Mesaba
�� Net increase of 20 additional aircraft over current
agreement *****(A NET INCREASE OF 20 AIRCRAFT MEANS THAT THE FIRST 35 AIRCRAFT GO TO MESABA)*****

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]IOW, the AVROs will be the first aircraft to be replaced with the new jets. This language states such, and it was stated so in the meetings I attended.[/FONT]

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]---Mesaba gets 35 jets to replace the AVROs[/FONT]

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]---there can be an addition 20 (up to the 55 imit)[/FONT]

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]---then another increase of 35[/FONT]

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]---the ratios start involving NB aircraft totals, & there is a penalty if the ratios aren't met. Mesaba gets the first aircraft, & they'd be the last taken away. [/FONT]

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]Some stab in the back.[/FONT]

...just because you make more money and fly a bigger aircraft than someone, does not make you better, and definately not a better pilot.

My response was to compare pay rates of an RJ captain vs. a mainline FO.

In no way do I think flying a larger airplane, or flying for a larger airline makes you a better pilot. I have respect for all aviators, regardless of employer, or seat position. If my comments reflected otherwise I apologize.

 

[CubanSmoker]

Let's all get in to a big pissing match about everything and bark at each other like neighborhood dogs. Oh, nevermind. I guess our managements can just sit back and watch us divide ourselves until no single group is united enough to hold the bar at ANY level.

Real class act guys.

 

[ironspud]

Let's all get in to a big pissing match about everything and bark at each other like neighborhood dogs. Oh, nevermind. I guess our managements can just sit back and watch us divide ourselves until no single group is united enough to hold the bar at ANY level.

Real class act guys.

That is really crappy beer.

 

[geshields]

That is really crappy beer.

Shiner Bock is awesome..:beer:

 

[CubanSmoker]

Shiner Bock is awesome..:beer:

Well at least this thread is talking about something worthwhile now...

 

[Lear70]

Let's all get in to a big pissing match about everything and bark at each other like neighborhood dogs. Oh, nevermind. I guess our managements can just sit back and watch us divide ourselves until no single group is united enough to hold the bar at ANY level.

Real class act guys.

Put down the crack pipe...

Unity? Between two disparate groups with the animosity that now exists?

Dream on... For there to be "unity", ALL the pilot groups will have to band together UNDER ONE UNION for representation. Otherwise, everyone goes after their own agenda regardless of what it does to any other pilot group. The NWA pilots just demonstrated that and it will be a decade before they get another chance.

Too much animosity and too much of a sh*tstorm still coming down the pike for MSA pilots for you to even DREAM of thinking we could all hold hands.

Nice thought, but zero to nil chance of realization...