Northwest Flight Attendants Reject Second Tentative Agreement

[PCL_128]

Why is that funny?

All the Pinnacle & Mesaba guys I've seen on any NW jumpseat have been respected & treated well.

Really? Never seen one of your Captains berate and belittle a Pinnacle or Mesaba jumpseater? Happens all the time. I was riding an Airbus jumpseat a couple of years ago with a newhire Pinnacle FO on the other jumpseat. First time the newhire had ever jumpseated up front. The Captain barely acknowledged us as he signed our forms, but that's fine. I'm used to it. Half-way through the flight the Captain turns around and stares us straight in the eyes and says "You know, you Pinnacle f$%$ers are no better than illegal mexicans that steal American jobs." The newhire was completely stunned. Not me. I'd come to expect this kind of treatment after a couple of years. I've heard dozens (if not hundreds) of these kinds of stories by other Pinnacle pilots. I've seen it happen to myself so many times that I've just come to think of it as normal. Getting treated like a human being on the NWA jumpseat is the exception, not the norm.

 

[Lear70]

It's the same everywhere, not just NWA. I don't have a "hard-on" for NWA pilots, I have a general lack of regard for ANY of the legacy carriers that signed the POS agreements that are out there.

I just happen to know the NWA story better than the others since I was working for a red-tail affiliate while most of this was going on and had been involved enough in our Association to pay attention; I left just before the T.A. was signed. And, since this is a thread about the solidarity the NW Flight Attendants AND Mechanics have and the NWA pilots DIDN'T, I don't see the need to drag a bunch of other airlines into the discussion as you seem to do.

YOU, 320, are trying to justify your position by the "everyone else did it" mentality which gets you exactly ZERO credibility on this board (and anywhere else for that matter). Again, take responsibility for your own actions.

Incidentally, PCL is right. I jumpseated twice every week on NWA aircraft from BNA to DTW and got so sick of the rancor directed at me by the MAJORITY of the NWA pilots (notice I did NOT say ALL NWA pilots), that I started taking SWA and going back and forth between terminals. It sucked when I had to start commuting to MEM, no other non-stop options.

Most of the pilots didn't come right out and say it, although I did have a NWA pilot ask me if I had worked during the Christmas debacle of '03 before he'd let me on (I had) and I had one guy try to deny me the jumpseat because "he didn't take scab airline pilots" (I've never crossed a picket line ANYWHERE - he was calling PCL pilots scabs), and I had to burn a $25 pass in the back. He was pissed when I got off the flight at the end, thought he had left me in BNA. Fu*k him...

I have some NWA pilots who are friends, one or two who voted Yes, and I let them know I'm disgusted by their vote but at least they will come right out and say they were watching their own best interests because of their families, etc. You, sir, don't have those kind of cajones evidently.

But if you're REALLY as clueless as you pretend to be about the animosity between the red-tail carriers, then I wouldn't be surprised if you really DID think the T.A. was a good thing for the piloting profession...

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Really? Never seen one of your Captains berate and belittle a Pinnacle or Mesaba jumpseater? Happens all the time. I was riding an Airbus jumpseat a couple of years ago with a newhire Pinnacle FO on the other jumpseat. First time the newhire had ever jumpseated up front. The Captain barely acknowledged us as he signed our forms, but that's fine. I'm used to it. Half-way through the flight the Captain turns around and stares us straight in the eyes and says "You know, you Pinnacle f$%$ers are no better than illegal mexicans that steal American jobs." The newhire was completely stunned. Not me. I'd come to expect this kind of treatment after a couple of years. I've heard dozens (if not hundreds) of these kinds of stories by other Pinnacle pilots. I've seen it happen to myself so many times that I've just come to think of it as normal. Getting treated like a human being on the NWA jumpseat is the exception, not the norm.

you will have this exact same attitude when you make mainline. Happens to everyone some just show it more than others. Could you imagine if the hiring requirements for a major airline were a maximum of 1000hrs PIC turbine instead of a minimum. This industry would be vastly different right now.

 

[320AV8R]

If this thing draaaaaaaags out much longer...

It's the same everywhere, not just NWA. I don't have a "hard-on" for NWA pilots, I have a general lack of regard for ANY of the legacy carriers that signed the POS agreements that are out there.

I just happen to know the NWA story better than the others since I was working for a red-tail affiliate while most of this was going on and had been involved enough in our Association to pay attention; I left just before the T.A. was signed. And, since this is a thread about the solidarity the NW Flight Attendants AND Mechanics have and the NWA pilots DIDN'T, I don't see the need to drag a bunch of other airlines into the discussion as you seem to do.

The reason that I am discussing them, is because they set the precedent for what happened to us. UAL & USAir were in CH 11 & they ended up with a crappy TA. We went down the same road. Our TA is in between the two extremes that they got. (Our NB guys have duty rigs, the UAL guys don’t……our sick provisions are light years above USAir’s……we saved our pension, DAL lost theirs, etc….) To single us out as being “sell-outs” is confusing.

WRT “solidarity”, the AMFA guys NEVER ONCE voted on any Mgmt proposal. “Most” of them went on strike, & then about 300 - 400 crossed back over. The F/As voted their TA down twice. Once by an 80% to 20% margin, & then by a 60% to 40% margin…..with only a 60% turnout. (60% of 60%). So, the overwhelming “solidarity” is subjective.

The pilots were given a TA & the majority voted it in. That might be what you are referring to WRT solidarity. The majority rules. Or maybe your point is that we didn’t vote something down, hence, we didn’t “stick it to the man”, so we lacked some type of resolve. Referring to the above paragraph, neither did any other pilot group. Our TA is in between theirs, yet their actions are not questioned.

YOU, 320, are trying to justify your position by the "everyone else did it" mentality which gets you exactly ZERO credibility on this board (and anywhere else for that matter). Again, take responsibility for your own actions.

I take full responsibility for my actions. Whether we like it or not, the majority rules & we have this TA. WRT your “everyone else did it” remarks, please see above. And BTW, I’m not sure I have much credibility anywhere, for that matter.

Incidentally, PCL is right. I jump seated twice every week on NWA aircraft from BNA to DTW and got so sick of the rancor directed at me by the MAJORITY of the NWA pilots (notice I did NOT say ALL NWA pilots), that I started taking SWA and going back and forth between terminals. It sucked when I had to start commuting to MEM, no other non-stop options.

Most of the pilots didn't come right out and say it, although I did have a NWA pilot ask me if I had worked during the Christmas debacle of '03 before he'd let me on (I had) and I had one guy try to deny me the jumpseat because "he didn't take scab airline pilots" (I've never crossed a picket line ANYWHERE - he was calling PCL pilots scabs), and I had to burn a $25 pass in the back. He was pissed when I got off the flight at the end, thought had left me in BNA. Fu*k him...

I have had the full spectrum of JS experiences also. The best was on AirTran. The worst was on….. Northwest, while I was working here. It’s just human nature. All I was saying was that I treat all J/S’ers with respect, irregardless of who they fly for, where they come from, what aircraft they fly, or how tall they are.

I have some NWA pilots who are friends, one or two who voted Yes, and I let them know I'm disgusted by their vote but at least they will come right out and say they were watching their own best interests because of their families, etc. You, sir, don't have those kind of cajones evidently.

I’m guessing that you are looking for an admission of guilt, or something. I weighted the factors and voted in what I thought was the appropriate manner. I think my cajones are average, I‘m guessing.

But if you're REALLY as clueless as you pretend to be about the animosity between the red-tail carriers, then I wouldn't be surprised if you really DID think the T.A. was a good thing for the piloting profession...

I'll be the first to admit I'm not the brightest guy out there. I guess the disconnect here is that I see “John Doe” as John Doe, not “John Doe Stupid Regional Idiot Pilot”. We had a Mesaba guy in the J/S a few months ago, & he was into some real interesting stuff…. Building houses & airplanes, etc. He was living about 10 miles from where I grew up, & I talked to him for most of the flight. Some of the Regional guys are more interesting than some of the jaded a-holes at the mainline.

 

[PCL_128]

The reason that I am discussing them, is because they set the precedent for what happened to us. UAL & USAir were in CH 11 & they ended up with a crappy TA. We went down the same road. Our TA is in between the two extremes that they got. (Our NB guys have duty rigs, the UAL guys don’t……our sick provisions are light years above USAir’s……we saved our pension, DAL lost theirs, etc….) To single us out as being “sell-outs” is confusing.

All of the fancy work-rules in the world don't mean jack #%^$ if your Section 1 allows them to send all of your flying to the lowest bidder. I really don't care what you voted for in pay and work-rules. I'm concerned about the fact that mainline pilots still, after 15 years of outsourced flying, haven't realized that giving up scope is asinine! You gave them what they wanted all along: NewCo. That's why we say you sold out!!

WRT “solidarity”, the AMFA guys NEVER ONCE voted on any Mgmt proposal. “Most” of them went on strike, & then about 300 - 400 crossed back over. The F/As voted their TA down twice. Once by an 80% to 20% margin, & then by a 60% to 40% margin…..with only a 60% turnout. (60% of 60%). So, the overwhelming “solidarity” is subjective.

So, just to be clear, are you making excuses for the SCAB mechanics? There's never a reason to scab.

I supported NWAALPA's decision not to sympathy strike at first, but I've sense come to realize that it was a big mistake. If you can look around you and see the mess that NWA has become and still not come to the conclusion that everyone should have sticked together, then you must truly have your head buried in the sand.

 

[JP4user]

There's never a reason to scab. [/COLOR]

Or pft.

 

[DTW320]

All of the fancy work-rules in the world don't mean jack #%^$ if your Section 1 allows them to send all of your flying to the lowest bidder. I really don't care what you voted for in pay and work-rules. I'm concerned about the fact that mainline pilots still, after 15 years of outsourced flying, haven't realized that giving up scope is asinine! You gave them what they wanted all along: NewCo. That's why we say you sold out!!

All of our flying is 76 seat and under? Wow, I must have missed that part. Are you familiar with NWA's original Newco proposal? I'm sure you could expand here on the differences between the scope provisions in NWA's original proposal vs. what is in the TA. Please include a comparison of our TA scope provisions to those of US, UAL, and DAL while your at it.

Lear70 stated that the NW mechanics and F/A's have solidarity. AV8R pointed out that 400 mechanics came back to NWA.....100% of the maximum # that NW offered. Given that simple comparison YOU think he is "making excuses" for scab mechanics? Wow. As for the F/A's, I agree with AV8R....60% voter turnout voting down something by a 60/40 margin doesn't sound like overwhelming "solidarity" to me. So lemme guess PCL_....I'm "making excuses" for the 40% of them who voted yes, out of the 60% who voted at all.

 

[320AV8R]

I'm concerned about the fact that mainline pilots still, after 15 years of outsourced flying, haven't realized that giving up scope is asinine! You gave them what they wanted all along: NewCo. That's why we say you sold out!!

We didn’t give them NEWCO, they got COMPASS. The SJ protections are just as good or better than other carriers. In addition, our merger / fragmentation / successorship / wet lease language is the very best out there.

Here’s the SJ comparison:

CARRIER SJs ALLOWED
American ---110% Mainline NB fleet may be 50-seat aircraft


Continental ---Unlimited, no restrictions


Delta ---Unlimited 50-seat, 125 70-seat


NWA ---Unlimited 50-seat----Up to 90 of the 51–76-seat aircraft with a
limit of 55 aircraft at nonaffiliated carrier.----Flow rights for laid-off NWA pilots ----Both the 55 and 90 aircraft cap include the 35
AVROs operated by Mesaba.


UAL ---Unlimited 50–70-seat aircraft equal to 100% of mainline block hours


USAir ---93 90-seat CRJ 900 (or similar aircraft)---115 70–76-seat SJs
More than 300 50-seat RJs


Again, the new 76-seat aircraft would be used to:
• replace the existing 35 AVRO aircraft at Mesaba,
• upgrade the equipment used on some of the 50-seat markets,
• provide for revenue growth opportunities in some new markets
• on a limited basis, be used to fly some routes now done by DC-9 aircraft, allowing those DC-9 aircraft to be used elsewhere, (READ GROWTH)
• fill the void in NWA’s fleet mix between the 50-seat RJ and the DC-9, allowing NWA to better maximize its yield and revenues.

The TA also allows for (i) an increase above the 90-aircraft limit on a one-for-one basis when 77–110-seat aircraft are introduced to the mainline, and (ii) an annual increase of three aircraft after the amendable date provided that at least
10 77–110-seat aircraft are in active service at the mainline.

It sounds kind of restrictive to me.

So, just to be clear, are you making excuses for the SCAB mechanics? There's never a reason to scab.

I stated what process they went through & the results. I never made any excuses for them.

I supported NWAALPA's decision not to sympathy strike at first, but I've sense come to realize that it was a big mistake. If you can look around you and see the mess that NWA has become and still not come to the conclusion that everyone should have sticked together, then you must truly have your head buried in the sand.

Do a search. This has been beaten to death here. Bottom line: THE OTHER UNIONS HAD NO INTEREST IN STICKING TOGETHER & DOING A JOINT DEAL. AMFA, IAM & PFAA WOULD NOT SIGN THE CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENTS, OR ATTEND NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE COMPANY. IT’S HARD TO HOLD HANDS WHEN NOBODY ELSE IS AROUND.

 

[DTW320]

Really? Never seen one of your Captains berate and belittle a Pinnacle or Mesaba jumpseater? Happens all the time. I was riding an Airbus jumpseat a couple of years ago with a newhire Pinnacle FO on the other jumpseat. First time the newhire had ever jumpseated up front. The Captain barely acknowledged us as he signed our forms, but that's fine. I'm used to it. Half-way through the flight the Captain turns around and stares us straight in the eyes and says "You know, you Pinnacle f$%$ers are no better than illegal mexicans that steal American jobs." The newhire was completely stunned. Not me. I'd come to expect this kind of treatment after a couple of years. I've heard dozens (if not hundreds) of these kinds of stories by other Pinnacle pilots. I've seen it happen to myself so many times that I've just come to think of it as normal. Getting treated like a human being on the NWA jumpseat is the exception, not the norm.

That CA's behavior/attitude is unsat. However, in over 10 years I have never witnessed anything remotely like that. I have personally bent over backwards to get J/S' on and in my own commuting have regularly ridden the F/A jumpseat to get Pinnacle folks on.

About the newhire first-time jumpseater: I'm sure that you, as an experienced jumpseater, fully explained to him the various unwritten rules of jumpseating on anybody, i.e. ASKING for the j/s instead of saying "I'm on your jumpseat", NOT going back during boarding and stowing your bags in the first class overheads, NOT going back and sitting in first class after door closing without being told to by the lead F/A, NOT stowing your bag in the flight deck without asking, especially when you're taking a seat in the back, NOT talking/reading the newspaper on the jumpseat during taxi/takeoff, etc. I'm sure that you briefed him on those things and that the MULTIPLE Pinnacle pilots that have done one/all of those things just on flights that I have been on were simply guys that haven't met YOU yet, right?

 

[A19]

Really? Never seen one of your Captains berate and belittle a Pinnacle or Mesaba jumpseater? Happens all the time. I was riding an Airbus jumpseat a couple of years ago with a newhire Pinnacle FO on the other jumpseat. First time the newhire had ever jumpseated up front. The Captain barely acknowledged us as he signed our forms, but that's fine. I'm used to it. Half-way through the flight the Captain turns around and stares us straight in the eyes and says "You know, you Pinnacle f$%$ers are no better than illegal mexicans that steal American jobs." The newhire was completely stunned. Not me. I'd come to expect this kind of treatment after a couple of years. I've heard dozens (if not hundreds) of these kinds of stories by other Pinnacle pilots. I've seen it happen to myself so many times that I've just come to think of it as normal. Getting treated like a human being on the NWA jumpseat is the exception, not the norm.

I've been at Mesaba for over seven years and have jumpseated on NWA almost exclusively, (back and forth to the west coast) and never have I been treated in the manner you describe. In fact I have always been treated with respect by the flight crews.