Northwest Flight Attendants Reject Second Tentative Agreement

[YourPilotFriend]

My heart bleeds for you. Try making it to mainline and living through 2 furloughs...tiring...very tiring. As a matter of fact, I've been furloughed 42% of my time at the majors. At least you are still working. Everybody has their cross to bear. And no, I'm not whining or asking for sympathy. I blame management and corporate greed, not other pilot groups.

You can't blame management they are trying to make the most money possible. Pilots are trying to make the most flight time. Flight time in exchange for pay, that's why you can blame pilots.

 

[320AV8R]

Why don't YOU stand up for yourself at Pinnacle where you have the distinction of having one of the worse contracts in the industry. Why didn't YOUR pilot group negotiate and obtain a better contract than you have now?Put your money where your mouth is buddy!! How many pilot strikes has Pinnacle had? How many times has NWA pilots stood up and struck when/where necessary? Do a little research Jacka$$

THOMAS39 FOR PRESIDENT. :laugh:

 

[320AV8R]

No, he can just see better because he is looking from the outside.

Yea.... with sooooooooo much accurate information. Did he sit through over 10 hours of meetings / briefings, talk to Reps, Negotiators, read reams of sh!t that came in the mail? You guys "out there" have only a fraction of the information. You hear a "nugget" of information, & treat it as fact. You need to separate the fact from fiction.

BTW, isn't that what happed to the FA's?

If you mean, did they "get the correct information".....maybe. They just changed unions. ALMOST ONE HALF of their membership is in BAD STANDING. Only 30% of their members bothered to vote on the last TA. Sixty percent of those voting...... like 35% of total members voted the TA down..... by 629 votes.

Yea.... they have a reeeeal SOLID network...... everyone is better informed on the "outside".

 

[Dumb Pilot]

My heart bleeds for you. Try making it to mainline and living through 2 furloughs...tiring...very tiring. As a matter of fact, I've been furloughed 42% of my time at the majors. At least you are still working. Everybody has their cross to bear. And no, I'm not whining or asking for sympathy. I blame management and corporate greed, not other pilot groups.

Preaching to the choir my dear sir. Rug pulled under my feet from three carriers and more corporate gigs lost due to downsizing or consolidation that I care to remember. I do enjoy and appreciate the fact that I have a job here at PCL. What I cannot comprehend to save my life is how is it possible that ALPA keeps negotiating the outsourcing of Airline jobs to other carriers while furloughing 600 pilots with thousands of hours of experience and at the same time they hire pilots with 500 hours to fly jet A/C's financed by the main carrier, to transport passengers from the main carrier with main line brand. All represented by THE SAME UNION. When are we going to wake up and work together towards Brand Scope? Is up to jets with 76 seats now flying all over North America. Explain to me how a flight from MSP to BOS in a fully automated state of the art transport jet is a "Regional" flight? Even if it has 50-76 seats. We allowed the masterful management's of this Brand carriers to sell us into the idea that these where "regional jets" and they should be operated outside the main line and the pilots of the mainline carriers fell and continue to fall for the same smoke and mirrors story, and the argument is. "Oh it could have being worst."

 

[Lear70]

This is weird, it appears pinnacle is allowing compass to operate one of it's crj's under the compass flag using pinnacles resources.

Smoke crack lately?

That's Mesaba, get it straight...

PCL has pretty strong scope language regarding aircraft being operated by Pinnacle ops (dispatch, scheduling, operating certificate). Ain't no how no way a PCL CRJ is being operated BY PINNACLE OPERATIONS by anyone except PCL pilots.

Management asked for that allowance about 2 years ago, the MEC told management to go pound sand.

 

[Lear70]

PCL_128 The battle to save this profession has to be from the bottom up.

That's a bunch of avoidist ********, and you know it. It takes BOTH SIDES negotiating TO A MIDDLE GROUND in order to protect careers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: until BOTH sides are working towards THE SAME GOAL, requiring ONE UNION, nothing is going to happen, they will continue to "divide and conquer.

Telling the regionals they bear the SOLE RESPONSIBILITY here is assinine and downright COWARDLY.

9E and XJ were profitable and are still profitable yet your wages could be sliding. If you can't capitalize on your own fortunes, how do expect someone to do it for you?

Ummm, do you know **************** ABOUT MESABA'S CURRENT FIGHT? Their management STOLE the money and the judge let them. PCL is currently WORKING to capitalize on their own fortune.

Why don't you actually RESEARCH before you post and stick your foot in your mouth?

Now both 9E and XJ are in a position to walk out tomorrow and cripple the NWA operation.

*snicker* Not quite. PCL and XJ represent about 25% of NWA's DOMESTIC departures and about 8% of Northwest's TOTAL DAILY departures.

"Cripple the NWA operation"? Get real...

Is that not enough to bargin for the scope you so desperately seek? I have said on here time and time again brand scope would save this profession,

You're right, it would. Unfortunately NWA mainline keeps giving it up.

I'll say it again, PCL has an EXCELLENT scope clause in their contract. "ALL aircraft operated by Pinnacle Airlines will be flown by Pinnacle Airlines seniority list pilots". Period. NWA gave up MORE scope in this contract.

Point that finger where it belongs.

The problem we had with striking now as opposed to 98 was the fact that in 98 the company wasn't going anywhere. Today a strike would have finished the airline.

That's funny, I was taught when bargaining NEVER to settle for any company's best final offer, and always be willing to walk away. What PROOF do you have that it would have "finished the airline"? Did it happen for the mechanics? Is it going to happen for the F/A's? Nope.

The wages were still livable that we had to choose today. The choice of no income verses a top middle class income is a no brainer. You guys however are in a fight against wages that not even Mcdonalds employees would accept. This is not the fault of mainline pilots.

McDonald's employees? I made $75,000 my 5th year at PCL before I left. I would hardly call that poverty level. Certainly could have been better, but again, get your facts straight.

 

[Lear70]

In your own words: "Put down the crack pipe". I walked in 98. Did you?

Nope, wasn't in the NWA family at the time.

Whatever fantasies you conjured at 9E and now Airtran are quite vivid. Please elaborate on the exact improvements reached that ended the strike under pressure from Bruce Lindsey and the Clinton admin.

Pressure? Absolutely. Final agreement better than the pre-strike proposal? Absolutely. Why don't YOU go research it... I was paying attention.

Thanks....since you know all about the differences between the prestrike offer and the final TA. I was there.....you were flyin a Lear somewhere.

No, I was a 727 Captain, smarta*s. See Avatar.

How bout a multi-million dollar fine for ALPA that would be passed down to every pilot on the property? Ask your AA buds about that.

I don't have any Sky Nazi friends. I hate that airline... avoid them like the plague, have over 80,000 miles on AA I can't use from when I worked for Flexjet, would rather buy a full-fare ticket on Southwest or my own airline.

They received a fine because the union underhandedly ENDORSED a slowdown. INDIVIDUAL refusal to work under an imposed contract is not the same thing, the union could scream for workers to return to work all they wanted; YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE whether to work under that imposed contract is NOT something the judge could fine the NWA MEC for. Comparing apples to oranges.

 

[ExAF]

Blame?

You can't blame management they are trying to make the most money possible. Pilots are trying to make the most flight time. Flight time in exchange for pay, that's why you can blame pilots.

I can blame anybody I want if that's OK with you. There's a difference between making the most money possible and a kick in the balls. Believe it or not my undergraduate and post-graduate major was management and organizational management. The @ssholes running companies these days contradict everything that has ever been taught in business schools about management. Yeah I know there is a difference between "the real world" and school. I do have some management experience in the real world too, albeit not in the airline business. Anyway, management today has forgotten everything about ethics, values, corporate citizenship and human decency. They could learn a thing or two from Herb when it comes to the old adage "Take care of your employees and they will take care of your customers and the company." I'm pretty sure most pilots aren't looking for more flight time, they want more pay for less flight time. You can blame whomever you want; I'll stick to management and corporate greed. Cheers.

 

[DTW320]

Pressure? Absolutely. Final agreement better than the pre-strike proposal? Absolutely. Why don't YOU go research it... I was paying attention.

I'm sure you were paying something, but it apparently wasn't attention. I was drawing a paycheck from NWA at the time and still am. Here's what you said:

NWA took a strike, then negotiated MUCH better than their "last best pre-strike offer", or don't you remember that part?

The post-strike TA had a few minor improvements."MUCH" better? BS, and any NW pilot, on property in 98 ,reading your tripe knows that BS gives you ZERO credibility in this. I still have the pre/post comparison from 98. Perhaps YOU would like to give me an example of the "MUCH" better terms. Thanks....

That's funny, I was taught when bargaining NEVER to settle for any company's best final offer, and always be willing to walk away. What PROOF do you have that it would have "finished the airline"? Did it happen for the mechanics? Is it going to happen for the F/A's? Nope.

Really? Did your "teacher" say that applies equally and with same effect when negotiating in Bankruptcy under the legal threat of having the entire contract thrown in the trash? NWA spent over a year preparing to replace the Mechs, but you knew that with your vast inside knowledge of NWA. F/As? Lets just agree that the final chapter of their story has not been written yet and that its premature to declare victory for them. They are currently working under imposed terms worse than what they just voted down. What's that term you like? "Apples to Oranges".

 

[DTW320]

They received a fine because the union underhandedly ENDORSED a slowdown.

Actually, they received the fine for a sickout not a slowdown.

INDIVIDUAL refusal to work under an imposed contract is not the same thing, the union could scream for workers to return to work all they wanted; YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE whether to work under that imposed contract is NOT something the judge could fine the NWA MEC for.

Wrong. Any large scale no show would have been viewed as ALPA defying the inevitable court order to cease and desist and a fine could certainly be levied as well as jail time for Reps. Also, anyone doing so would have been INDIVIDUALLY terminated. That was clear. Failure to come to work under a legally binding imposed contract would be the same as refusing to come to work under the best contract out there.

 

[CatYaaak]

So how many of you Pro-unioners playing "mine's bigger" will continue to fly for, or jumpseat on, NWA if the F/As strike and they hire replacement workers?

 

[DTW320]

Lear70 said:

I made $75,000 my 5th year at PCL before I left. I would hardly call that poverty level. Certainly could have been better, but again, get your facts straight.

Lear70 also said a couple of weeks ago about Airtran:

Actually, I'm making more like $40k 1st year and yes, it's about a 30% pay cut. So is everyone else's 1st year pay, including SWA, JB, FedEx, not to MENTION CAL at $25k 1st year!

$75k to $40k = 47% paycut. $40k/year being a 30% pay cut means you were making about $57k....not $75k. Dislexia? With 5th year Pinnacle pay at $62/hour I gotta wonder which is correct. Did you do the pay-cut math wrong or are you simple wildly exagerrating to make a point?

 

[Lear70]

I'm sure you were paying something, but it apparently wasn't attention.

Are you trying to say I paid for training? Nope, wrong guy. Still paying on my student loan for my 4 year degree and ratings through MEI and, after that, every job I ever had PAID ME to fly and get type ratings.

Nice try.

I was drawing a paycheck from NWA at the time and still am. The post-strike TA had a few minor improvements."MUCH" better? BS, and any NW pilot, on property in 98 ,reading your tripe knows that BS gives you ZERO credibility in this. I still have the pre/post comparison from 98. Perhaps YOU would like to give me an example of the "MUCH" better terms. Thanks....

Unlike you, I have better things to store in my house than pre- post- strike proposals. I read both. There were improvements. Point proven. Don't like it? Too fu*king bad.

Lets just agree that the final chapter of their story has not been written yet and that its premature to declare victory for them. They are currently working under imposed terms worse than what they just voted down. What's that term you like? "Apples to Oranges".

Exactly. Apples to oranges. The F/A's have the cajones to go toe-to-toe with management over this. You didn't. There's your apples to oranges.

Lear70 also said a couple of weeks ago about Airtran:

Quote:
Actually, I'm making more like $40k 1st year and yes, it's about a 30% pay cut. So is everyone else's 1st year pay, including SWA, JB, FedEx, not to MENTION CAL at $25k 1st year!

$75k to $40k = 47% paycut. $40k/year being a 30% pay cut means you were making about $57k....not $75k. Dislexia? With 5th year Pinnacle pay at $62/hour I gotta wonder which is correct. Did you do the pay-cut math wrong or are you simple wildly exagerrating to make a point?

You really need a hobby or a girlfriend or possibly even both if you have time to go research 1 month old posts...

The answer is YOU made an error in ASSuming that I meant a 30% pay cut from MY W-2, when I was comparing INDUSTRY HOURLY RATES between carriers. The HOURLY pay cut is approximately 34%. You'll notice I made comparisons between several other carriers as well...

My 1st year pay here at airTran is $43 an hour. I credited 102 hours last month on 70 hours of flying on reserve and my buddy has been crediting 95-105 hours a month on reserve as well for the last 6 months (he deliberately bids reserve for the money). I'm going to be on reserve for about a year because all the new-hires are going to the 737 right now and I'm on the 717 so I also am planning on a regular income of 100 credit hours per month. 43*100 = $43,000.

My actual 2005 Pinnacle W-2 included 5 months of 24/7 per diem because I was base-hopping for an extra $5,000 bucks (no, I don't usually count per diem but did for those months because it was pure income for no real work), credited 1,079 hours because I was flying 90-95 hours a month with 13-14 days off and timed out for the year in early December, drawing guarantee for the rest of the month while I sat Christmas and New Year's off.

Income without regular per diem was right at $68k plus the $5k in 24/7 per diem money puts me right at $73k and change or $75k in round numbers, which is actually a 42.66% pay cut.

So no, I wasn't exaggerating for effect. Nice try, though.

They received a fine because the union underhandedly ENDORSED a slowdown.

Actually, they received the fine for a sickout not a slowdown.

That's technically correct, was well into a bottle of wine last night, my bad. Either way, it still equates to the same thing.

Wrong. Any large scale no show would have been viewed as ALPA defying the inevitable court order to cease and desist and a fine could certainly be levied as well as jail time for Reps.

Oh, so now you're a labor judge as well as a jury?

I call bullsh*t. None of the reps would go to jail, especially if EVERY piece of evidence including code-a-phone messages, mass emails, and all meetings pointed to the MEC trying to convince their membership to go to work.

I imagine we'll get a chance to see it first-hand with the F/A's, they'll strike, the judge will order them back to work, a large number of them won't, and no one will go to jail. Bet you a $100 bill... That is, assuming, they keep their solidarity and keep at it until they get a fair and reasonable deal.

Also, anyone doing so would have been INDIVIDUALLY terminated. That was clear. Failure to come to work under a legally binding imposed contract would be the same as refusing to come to work under the best contract out there.

Absolutely. But if they ALL refuse to come to work and the airline settles, any union settlement could include their return to work. In fact, isn't that what EVERY labor group does at the conclusion of a work action?

Thought so...

 

[DTW320]

Are you trying to say I paid for training? Nope, wrong guy. Still paying on my student loan for my 4 year degree and ratings through MEI and, after that, every job I ever had PAID ME to fly and get type ratings.

Nice try.

Wow dude....Your paranoia is reaching extreme levels. Last night (Saturday night no less)you were swilling wine while posting on FlightInfo(but "I" need a hobby....too funny!) so today what exactly are you on that is producing the paranoia? Attention Airtran Drug Testing Department.....

Unlike you, I have better things to store in my house than pre- post- strike proposals

Like the wine fridge next to the computer?

I read both. There were improvements. Point proven. Don't like it? Too fu*king bad.

I agree...you obviously don't like being proven wrong...you just can't give even 1 example of the "MUCH" better post-strike TA can ya? Thought So.

You really need a hobby or a girlfriend or possibly even both if you have time to go research 1 month old posts...

Yeah, lets talk about my flightinfo browsing habits instead of your lies and fabrications here. That'llwork...

Oh, so now you're a labor judge as well as a jury?

I call bullsh*t. None of the reps would go to jail, especially if EVERY piece of evidence including code-a-phone messages, mass emails, and all meetings pointed to the MEC trying to convince their membership to go to work.

Actually, Einstein, Bankruptcy court doesn't have jury's. Stick to yankin gear dude...

Yeah, the TWU president didn't REALLY serve a 10 day jail sentence in the NY transit strike. They just made that part up...sorry.

Absolutely. But if they ALL refuse to come to work and the airline settles, any union settlement could include their return to work. In fact, isn't that what EVERY labor group does at the conclusion of a work action?

Thought so...

Not always. PATCO comes to mind.

Thanks for the detailed ANALysis of your exact whereabouts during your last year at Pinnacle. Note to self: Practice mindreading skills prior to reading your posts so I'll know what you REALLY meant.....not what you actually POSTED. Got it.


No comment on the anger management huh....just ANOTHER profanity laced post. Another valuejet professional.

 

[Lear70]

Wow dude....Your paranoia is reaching extreme levels. Last night (Saturday night no less)you were swilling wine while posting on FlightInfo(but "I" need a hobby....too funny!) so today what exactly are you on that is producing the paranoia? Attention Airtran Drug Testing Department.....

Paranoia? Ummm... no. YOU are the one who said "I'm sure you were paying SOMETHING..." What else, specifically, did you mean? After you berated PCL128, I'm SURE that's not what you meant. Yeahhhh, riiiight.

And no, I said I was "well into a bottle of wine", meaning my wife and I had gone out, had a nice evening out over dinner, came home, and I got online right before I went to bed, read your drivel, and felt compelled to respond.

Today I'm coming in on and off from the heat while working on my boat. Too hot to stay outside all day, and this makes a good distraction while cooling off. So yes, I have BOTH a hobby AND a wife. Any questions?

Like the wine fridge next to the computer?

Actually, the wine fridge is in the garage right next to the deep freezer.

I agree...you obviously don't like being proven wrong...you just can't give even 1 example of the "MUCH" better post-strike TA can ya? Thought So.

Jeez, take one word and focus in on it because you HAVE to admit the post-strike T.A. was better than pre-strike? Go ahead, you can say it again if it makes you feel better...

Yeah, lets talk about my flightinfo browsing habits instead of your lies and fabrications here. That'llwork...

WHICH lies and fabrications would THOSE be? Everything I said has been 100% true, it's a shame you don't like it. Feel free to PM me, we'll get together and you can call me a liar to my face. Everyone knows who I am, you get to hide behind the cover of anonymity...

Actually, Einstein, Bankruptcy court doesn't have jury's. Stick to yankin gear dude...

I didn't say it did. I said "a labor judge and A jury. I didn't say a "labor jury".

Additionally, I wasn't trying to be legally correct, since I don't claim to be an attorney. I was being FACETIOUS regarding your attempt to tell me, as an absolute certainty, what would have happened. Maybe I need your crystal ball so I can just prepare for the rest of my career...

Yeah, the TWU president didn't REALLY serve a 10 day jail sentence in the NY transit strike. They just made that part up...sorry.

Again, apples to oranges. The TWU president was quoted multiple times in support of the strike, amidst other issues, which is why he wound up in jail. Keep finding non-related examples, you're not convincing ANYONE except yourself and your other screen names.

Thanks for the detailed ANALysis of your exact whereabouts during your last year at Pinnacle.

You asked. And, I quote:

Did you do the pay-cut math wrong or are you simple wildly exagerrating to make a point?

So you got an answer. Didn't want one? Don't ask a question.

Note to self: Practice mindreading skills prior to reading your posts so I'll know what you REALLY meant.....not what you actually POSTED. Got it.

Let's see here, I posted hourly rates, gave a percentage comparison, compared them to other airlines. No mind reading required. Just good common sense not to ASSume anything.

GOD I'm glad I don't work for Northwest. You're a classic example of "I'm a mainline pilot" syndrome and why I took Southwest to work whenever possible.

No comment on the anger management huh....just ANOTHER profanity laced post. Another valuejet professional.

Profanity? One phrase: freedom of speech. KMDA.

Not angry, blood pressure isn't even up (except from sweating to death outside), more amused than anything else that you, like the only other NWA pilots who post on here, can't come right out and say you didn't have the cajones to play the game the F/A's are saying and have to attack OTHER PEOPLE.

Sad... truly sad.

 

[xjhawk]

Okay, first of all, cannot we all get along....i have experiences a great amount of great people and mean people at NWA...and elsewhere.....but i will say this, that when a NWA pilot was looking for a ride, they were a lot nicer than when i was looking for a ride with them.....and not once did the cpt i was flying with, nor me, act as the way many of the NWA pilots acted..........like they had a chip on their shoulder........but i say once again, i have talked with many great NWA pilots while jumpseating......

Okay now i want to add some fuel to the fire.....

did you all know that our union was asked to give a number for our pending deal so they had numbers for a bid to NWa for Q400, which i have been told seat like close to 80 and have no restrictions because its a turboprop.........no restrctions......think about that when you see a couple hundred of those end up flying as a redtail! just a thought.....and i am not saying that Mesaba will be flying them.

 

[TurboAWD]

Why don't YOU stand up for yourself at Pinnacle where you have the distinction of having one of the worse contracts in the industry. Why didn't YOUR pilot group negotiate and obtain a better contract than you have now?Put your money where your mouth is buddy!! How many pilot strikes has Pinnacle had? How many times has NWA pilots stood up and struck when/where necessary? Do a little research Jacka$$

Oh please. Yes it is true than the PNCL contract is junk. However, the MEC has been telling MGMT where to put it with their BS offers.

But, the real problem is that mainline pilots have made it VERY difficult for "regional" pilots to negotiate. By allowing virtually unlimited regional partners, anyone who gets "too good" a contract will simply be replaced (meaning we don't have much leverage). See Atlantic Coast, Air Willy and Mesaba for examples. XJT might also be an example. Not that it is your job to look out for my contract, but don't give me a bunch of bull about why the regional contracts are as bad as they are. It's not like we can just say "you know, this PNCL contract is not good enough. I'm going to quit and get a job at NW".

This problem exists because mainline pilots ALLOWED it to exists when the started letting other airlines fly jets for their airline. And now it's even worse due the erosion of scope (again, voted on by mainline pilots). And NW DOES NOT have industry leading scope. CAL or American are both better (yes, I know they aren't in CH11).

PS, thanks for throwing junior pilots under the bus with the crappy DC plan, and future hires with the EMB 190 payscale.

Turbo

 

[Lear70]

did you all know that our union was asked to give a number for our pending deal so they had numbers for a bid to NWa for Q400, which i have been told seat like close to 80 and have no restrictions because its a turboprop.........no restrctions......think about that when you see a couple hundred of those end up flying as a redtail! just a thought.....and i am not saying that Mesaba will be flying them.

Oh man... I'd say flamebait, but you usually post pretty accurate stuff...

That Q400 is a nice airframe, roomy (for a regional aircraft), true airspeed around 350+ kts if memory serves. A perfect aircraft for those 300-500 NM markets (1 hour to 90 minute flights) that PCL and MSA have been flying for years now.

And no scope because of it being a turboprop. One came to MEM about 2 years ago and the PCL management went out to check into it. Nothing came of it, but it got us thinking "what if"...

If they come, I hope MSA gets 'em with a DECENT contract. You guys need a little good news...

p.s. Hey Longhorn, are you the one who moved this to the "Flight Attendant" forum? Shouldn't you be studying...?

 

[xjhawk]

yeah when i heard of the news of the two jets on the signature ramp(erj and crj) i was like yeah right, then it came at me frm like ten different ways and a NWA web article which verified it. Then, that Q400 news came (that it was also on the ramp) which i thought was funny, cause the week earlier we were joking about it in saab class. Then our union comes out and says they were ask ........for pay rates. that came from the alpa update..... yeah i know, its flamebait.....and no i do not want to take jobs from anyone, and no i do not know the scope agreement by heart, so take that at face value, but dam, i sure need some positive news.....

 

[ils2minimums]

Hey guys, take a couple of minutes and go to your neutral corners, I'd like to interject for a second if I may...

I've been watching this argument for a couple of days and it's been entertaining. I can see I have a lot of studying to do to learn how to place multiple quotes in a post...

My 1st year pay here at airTran is $43 an hour. I'm going to be on reserve for about a year because all the new-hires are going to the 737 right now and I'm on the 717 so I also am planning on a regular income of 100 credit hours per month. 43*100 = $43,000.

This post is simply for clarification on the math. $43 per hour X 100 hours per month X 12 months in your first year is $51,600, unless you're taking a couple of months off for Guard duty or something else I may have missed.

Ok, now. Seconds out! BOX!