Northwest Flight Attendants Reject Second Tentative Agreement

[Lear70]

This post is simply for clarification on the math. $43 per hour X 100 hours per month X 12 months in your first year is $51,600, unless you're taking a couple of months off for Guard duty or something else I may have missed.

Ok, now. Seconds out! BOX!

You're right, I get going so fast some times I miss stuff.

That assumed an approximate 1000 hour limit for block=credit, which is a mistake I made because I'm still thinking like Pinnacle with very few to no trip/duty rigs.

Thanks for the clarification,,,

 

[Thomas39]

But, the real problem is that mainline pilots have made it VERY difficult for "regional" pilots to negotiate. By allowing virtually unlimited regional partners, anyone who gets "too good" a contract will simply be replaced (meaning we don't have much leverage).

This problem exists because mainline pilots ALLOWED it to exists when the started letting other airlines fly jets for their airline. And now it's even worse due the erosion of scope (again, voted on by mainline pilots). And NW DOES NOT have industry leading scope. CAL or American are both better (yes, I know they aren't in CH11).

Turbo

I know I should ignore the madness you just posted but I can't help it....

Flush your headgear out new guy. What you just said must be the most insanely idiotic thing I have ever heard. HOW can you blame any other pilot group for YOUR inability to negotiate. Seperate unions, seperate MEC, seperate carriers...only you control your destiny. There is no way NWA could replace Pinnacle or Mesaba overnight; although, their costs need to be in line with the regional industry. So if you want to start placing blame for regional wowes, start with Mesa. You do have negotiating leverage and the crappy commuter contracts in no way are the fault of mainline pilots. In fact, due to some of the scope we LOST in negotiations (not ALLOWED), the regionals are in a better negotiating position due to their total value they bring to mainline.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

HOW can you blame any other pilot group for YOUR inability to negotiate..

Spoken like a tried and true ALPA crony. Go get a haircut and shave that 70s era mustache dude.

 

[Lear70]

There is no way NWA could replace Pinnacle or Mesaba overnight; although, their costs need to be in line with the regional industry.

No, evidently you're in need of a little educating.

Technically, the entire regional industry compensation package needs to be approximately doubled.

This would bring their labor cost more in line with the major carriers. At this point, the two could be re-integrated meaning that no one would be undercutting or "selling out" anyone else.

So if you want to start placing blame for regional wowes, start with Mesa.

No, again.

You obviously have "heard" more than you've "researched". Let's take this one step at a time.

First, let's be clear that your FIRST statement said that MSA and PCL need to be more "in line with the rest of the regional indutsry". Then you go on to say that if they want to get upset about pay rates, they should get upset at Mesa, so you're comparing MSA and PCL to Mesa rates, correct?

Take a good, close look at Mesa payscales; Mesa's 50-seat CRJ rate is, within $1 per hour, the SAME as PCL's rates and almost identical to MSA's 50-seat jet rates.

That's right, go look it up at www.airlinepilotpay.com

The reason people get so mad at Mesa is that the 70- and 90- seat pay rate is abysmal and shameful, although the allowance of Compass basically created another Mesa carrier with similar pay on those 70- and 90- seat aircraft. So, basically, by ALLOWING another Mesa-like carrier, the NWA pilots made it difficult for MSA or PCL to negotiate higher 70- and 90- seat pay rates, effectively capping their growth when their negotiations stall out and die because THE REGIONAL PILOTS actually HAVE A BACKBONE AND REFUSE TO SIGN FOR CRAP RATES.

Yes, that's exactly what's going on at MSA right now. More solidarity than the NWA pilots have shown in almost a decade.

You do have negotiating leverage and the crappy commuter contracts in no way are the fault of mainline pilots.

Whatever helps you sleep better at night, buddy. Although you MIGHT do a research into how the NMB works in mediation comparing "similar aircraft at similar pay", no matter who operates it. PCL and MSA are being compared to Compass, and you allowed Compass. It's that simple.

In fact, due to some of the scope we LOST in negotiations (not ALLOWED), the regionals are in a better negotiating position due to their total value they bring to mainline.

Hmmm... No one held a gun to your head and said "SIGN!" So, since you NEGOTIATED that scope away, I'd say, by true definition of the word, you ALLOWED it. Sorry it hurts to say it.

"Total value they bring to mainline"? Nice try, but if their cost goes up too much for NWA, they'll simply transfer assets to Compass over a year or so, effectively elliminating that carrier. It'll be expensive, but probably cheaper than a long-term contract that compensates those pilots APPROPRIATELY for the work they do.

Incidentally, I find it interesting that we're coming up on the one year mark for the RFP and it STILL hasn't been announced. Kind of odd, don't you think, considering the ongoing negotiations at both regional affiliates? Hint: there's a very good explanation why,,,

 

[TurboAWD]

There is no way NWA could replace Pinnacle or Mesaba overnight; although, their costs need to be in line with the regional industry.

Well, not overnight exactly, but still fairly easy to replace. Like I said, look at AirWilly and ACA for examples. Also, you could look at your own AMFA mechanics. This is one of, if not the, major advatages of outsourcing to mgmt: destroying labor leverage. Which it why in retrospect it was a mistake for AMFA to trade scope for pay, and the same thing can be said for ALPA.

As for your earlier statement asking why the 9E pilot group has such a poor contract, the awnser is the same as why NW now has such a poor contract. Except they were under even more pressure than you were when they signed their current contract, and also 85% of the pilots at 9E weren't their when the POS was signed.

Listen, I don't hate NW pilots for signing the agreement, I just wish they hadn't- because it along with all the other legacy concessions has made this a difficult "career" to stay in. But I don't have to listen to a bunch of guys who contributed to the big sell out confront me about my contract that I didn't vote on. I don't want to work at a regional, I want to work at mainline (although I'm don't know anymore- see above note about throwing future hires under bus with EMB190 rates). But since you aren't hiring, that isn't an option right now.

Turbo

 

[Thomas39]

No, evidently you're in need of a little educating.

Technically, the entire regional industry compensation package needs to be approximately doubled.

This would bring their labor cost more in line with the major carriers. At this point, the two could be re-integrated meaning that no one would be undercutting or "selling out" anyone else.


No, again.

You obviously have "heard" more than you've "researched". Let's take this one step at a time.

First, let's be clear that your FIRST statement said that MSA and PCL need to be more "in line with the rest of the regional indutsry". Then you go on to say that if they want to get upset about pay rates, they should get upset at Mesa, so you're comparing MSA and PCL to Mesa rates, correct?

Take a good, close look at Mesa payscales; Mesa's 50-seat CRJ rate is, within $1 per hour, the SAME as PCL's rates and almost identical to MSA's 50-seat jet rates.

That's right, go look it up at www.airlinepilotpay.com

The reason people get so mad at Mesa is that the 70- and 90- seat pay rate is abysmal and shameful, although the allowance of Compass basically created another Mesa carrier with similar pay on those 70- and 90- seat aircraft. So, basically, by ALLOWING another Mesa-like carrier, the NWA pilots made it difficult for MSA or PCL to negotiate higher 70- and 90- seat pay rates, effectively capping their growth when their negotiations stall out and die because THE REGIONAL PILOTS actually HAVE A BACKBONE AND REFUSE TO SIGN FOR CRAP RATES.

Yes, that's exactly what's going on at MSA right now. More solidarity than the NWA pilots have shown in almost a decade.


Whatever helps you sleep better at night, buddy. Although you MIGHT do a research into how the NMB works in mediation comparing "similar aircraft at similar pay", no matter who operates it. PCL and MSA are being compared to Compass, and you allowed Compass. It's that simple.


Hmmm... No one held a gun to your head and said "SIGN!" So, since you NEGOTIATED that scope away, I'd say, by true definition of the word, you ALLOWED it. Sorry it hurts to say it.

"Total value they bring to mainline"? Nice try, but if their cost goes up too much for NWA, they'll simply transfer assets to Compass over a year or so, effectively elliminating that carrier. It'll be expensive, but probably cheaper than a long-term contract that compensates those pilots APPROPRIATELY for the work they do.

Incidentally, I find it interesting that we're coming up on the one year mark for the RFP and it STILL hasn't been announced. Kind of odd, don't you think, considering the ongoing negotiations at both regional affiliates? Hint: there's a very good explanation why,,,

I find it hard to follow your logic. You seem to contradict yourself and have some highly delusional ideas. Here goes..

Double regional industry compensation package? That would mean a mid-seniority CRJ captain would make about 160K. Bring the cost in line with the majors? I think the 50 seat RJ Captain would be making more than the 150 seat 757 Captain. Yea, I can follow your logic on that position.

I was NOT comparing current MSA, PCL rates and saying they are too high. What I ment was you do have negotiating power but need to be realistic and the new future pay rates would need to be close to others in the industry so they would not be replaced by another regional.

Thanks for reinforcing my point about MESA. Mesa started the race to the bottom and your post makes it crystal clear. PCL, MSA regional airline pilot pay is within a dollar of MESA. This was my point exactly.

I can't follow you logic about the 70 and 90 seat pay rates being negotiated at MSA and PCL. The scope in the NWA pilot contract only allows for 76 seat aircraft and then only with restrictions.

You say I am in need of an education? I am sure you will find it is you who are mistaken about a great many things. You mention similar aircraft at similar pay in one paragraph and then blather on about god knows what in the next two. Also, I would take the Compass compensation package over the PCL one any day.

Do yourself a favor, find and read all of the Across the Table publications starting with the 2004 editions, from the NWA MEC that address our negotiations process and the facts concerning the NWA contract before you spout off about things you clearly don't understand. If you don't have them, PM me and I'll send them to you.

 

[Lear70]

I find it hard to follow your logic. You seem to contradict yourself and have some highly delusional ideas. Here goes..

I'M delusional and contradictory? Your post below contradicts your earlier post in several ways I ALREADY POINTED OUT, but you have yet to address. Please, be VERY SPECIFIC WITH QUOTES of where I'm contradicting myself.

Double regional industry compensation package? That would mean a mid-seniority CRJ captain would make about 160K. Bring the cost in line with the majors? I think the 50 seat RJ Captain would be making more than the 150 seat 757 Captain. Yea, I can follow your logic on that position.

You're taking individual rates and focusing on them, read what I said again: the regional industry COMPENSATION PACKAGE.

When a pilot group negotiates a COMPENSATION PACKAGE, it's done as AN ENTIRE PACKAGE OVER THE ENTIRE SENIORITY GROUP. That means the F/O's salary might go up by more than 150% while the senior people that YOU'RE talking about might only get a 50% raise, then there's the extra R&I items, better work rules, that all bring up the pilot's overall W-2.

And yes, a mid-level CRJ Captain who makes about $65k at PCL SHOULD be making six figures, and the SENIOR CRJ Captain who makes about $85k at PCL SHOULD be making around the $120k mark.

And yes, your 757 Captain rates are just plain sad. I'll make more over here as a 717 Captain than most of your 757 Captains and I work at a LOW COST CARRIER !!! Truly pathetic.

I was NOT comparing current MSA, PCL rates and saying they are too high.

Then please explain how you put both of those statements back to back in your initial post. Be specific how that was SUPPOSED to read, rather than how it DID READ.

What I ment was you do have negotiating power but need to be realistic and the new future pay rates would need to be close to others in the industry so they would not be replaced by another regional.

That's exactly the thinking problem you people have. It doesn't need to be close to others in the industry, THEY ALL NEED TO GO UP!!!

Thanks for reinforcing my point about MESA. Mesa started the race to the bottom and your post makes it crystal clear. PCL, MSA regional airline pilot pay is within a dollar of MESA. This was my point exactly.

Ummm,,, smoke crack lately? Again? Do you know ANYTHING about this industry you've stuck your nose into from your mainline seat?

Again, let me be PERFECTLY clear, since you seem so bent on misINTERPRETING my posts. MESA'S PAY FOR 50 SEAT JETS IS INDUSTRY STANDARD. In plain English, since you have such a problem understanding it, Mesa's 50-seat rates did NOT start the "race to the bottom", although YOUR pay rates have accelerated that trend nicely. Mesa's 70- and 90- seat jet rates are the problem.

And, more specifically, Mesaba's 50-seat jet rates ALSO did not help any "race to the bottom", they actually kept the bar RIGHT WHERE IT WAS AT, signing an industry-standard 50-seat jet rate while PCL, Express Jet, and others were trying to RAISE THE BAR.

Get your facts straight before you post, it makes your credibility worthless.

I can't follow you logic about the 70 and 90 seat pay rates being negotiated at MSA and PCL. The scope in the NWA pilot contract only allows for 76 seat aircraft and then only with restrictions.

Again, don't know much about your affiliate carriers, do you?

You can't follow my "logic" about the 70- and 90- seat rates, yet you acknowledge in YOUR VERY NEXT STATEMENT that the scope give-away allows 76- seat aircraft. Are you brain dead? This is a DIRECT acknowledgement that 70+ seat rates are required at those carriers.

Secondly, both carriers are trying to open up other lines of business. The RFP that PCL management proposed to NWA management is that the stranglehold on PCL operations only being allowed to operate for NWA be released in the next agreement, and the CEO of PCL has been quoted multiple times as bidding on FLYING FOR OTHER CARRIERS, which would include up to 90- seat RJ's.

Again, do a little research on this side of the fence if you're going to post.

You say I am in need of an education? I am sure you will find it is you who are mistaken about a great many things. You mention similar aircraft at similar pay in one paragraph and then blather on about god knows what in the next two. Also, I would take the Compass compensation package over the PCL one any day.

Hmmm... would you now? Even fewer rest and duty limitations that PCL has, locked in for MORE THAN A DECADE while PCL's contract will be better than Compass' within 2 years due to their ongoing negotiations and staunch resolve to improve their QOL with a company that's posted $30 Million + profits every quarter the last half-decade.

Again, if you're going to accuse me of "blathering", be specific. I'm specific with your quotes, you can be specific about mine if you're going to try to dispariage them.

You really do need to learn more about the regional industry you're going to comment on and yes, learning constitutes "an education".

Do yourself a favor, find and read all of the Across the Table publications starting with the 2004 editions, from the NWA MEC that address our negotiations process and the facts concerning the NWA contract before you spout off about things you clearly don't understand. If you don't have them, PM me and I'll send them to you.

I did have them, read them, understand their positions, as well as your MEC leaders who railed so hard AGAINST the T.A.

Maybe you should have listened instead of signing that P.O.S.

Luckily, I don't have to deal with your red tail arrogance and ignorance anymore except on this board where and your cohorts continue to show both.

 

[honeycomb]

Slapppppp!

PoooooooW!

Thomas39...

Ya'know.....I think you should quit while your behind. Or the th'70 will just have to slappppp your un-educated booooty again and again.

 

[B727FA]

Isn't it amazing how a thread about FA's always turns into a pissing match between pilots?

 

[Thomas39]

Technically, the entire regional industry compensation package needs to be approximately doubled.

This would bring their labor cost more in line with the major carriers. At this point, the two could be re-integrated meaning that no one would be undercutting or "selling out" anyone else.

Double the regional compensation package and bring the regional airlines costs in line with the majors? WHAT? That IS delusional. Majors fly LARGER airplanes than a 50, 70 or 90 seat airplane. SMALLER airplanes do NOT produce enough revenue to command the same compensation package no matter how you want to slice it up. If you can't understand that, you shouldn’t be flying an airplane, you should be working at the snack bar.

And yes, a mid-level CRJ Captain who makes about $65k at PCL SHOULD be making six figures, and the SENIOR CRJ Captain who makes about $85k at PCL SHOULD be making around the $120k mark.

And 9/11 shouldn't have happened, the war in Iraq shouldn't have happened. GAS should not be over 3.00 a gallon, I should have been a 757 Captain by now........
Of course I think all of our pay should be going up instead of down. My point in my original post was you can't blame mainline pilots for regional pilot pay. Mesa (and others) first entered the RJ market in the 1990s (the beginning of the race to the bottom) by bidding on and obtaining contracts with lower costs by paying their pilots less. NWA pilots had to negotiate the Compass rates in 2006 long after the standard was firmly set in the industry by every single other legacy carrier except CAL. Shouldn't have such an experienced and omniscient being as yourself, realized this sooner?

Do you know ANYTHING about this industry you've stuck your nose into from your mainline seat?

Let’s see, five different uniforms in my closet, three of them from regional carriers.

Mesa's 50-seat rates did NOT start the "race to the bottom", although YOUR pay rates have accelerated that trend nicely.

You were probably still recovering from your lobotomy and don't remember when Mesa received their 1st RJ. Mesa's RJ pay was well below anything else in the industry, that is how they grew and obtained flying from other regionals. Just ask Air Wisconsin.


And when PCL does obtain a 90 seat feeder contract with someone other than NWA, by undercutting the rest of the industry, I’ll be the first to tell you I TOLD YOU SO

And check the pay rates for 90 seat equipment at NWA mainline. 20.00 hr OVER MESA rates

Get your facts straight before you post, it makes your credibility worthless.

Take your own advice dumbsh*t. See above and below.

You can't follow my "logic" about the 70- and 90- seat rates

anything OVER 76 seats will be flown at NWA mainline. I was referring to 90 seat aircraft as they apply to NWA and NWA regionals. You lumped the two together.

Even fewer rest and duty limitations that PCL has, locked in for MORE THAN A DECADE while PCL's contract will be better than Compass' within 2 years due to their ongoing negotiations and staunch resolve

Not sure what you are talking about here. “Fewer rest and duty limitations that PCL has”??? Doesn’t that mean you are working more and getting less rest WHILE FLYING FOR PCL??? More blathering I guess. If you are referring to the duration of the Compass work rules they are amendable in 2013. If Compass begins ops in 2007, and the contract is amendable in 2013, that is only six years. A far cry from “MORE THAN A DECADE”. Oh, but I forgot, you really don’t have a good handle on simple math computations from reading previous posts. Oh well, at least you can predict the future with such accuracy and absolute certainty, as to know that PCL will lead the industry tomorrow while having one of the industry’s worst contracts today.

Again, if you're going to accuse me of "blathering", be specific

See above and below. Your overflowing with it

...as well as your MEC leaders who railed so hard AGAINST the T.A.

The MEC didn't rally against the TA. In fact, they held a neutral stance on the issue, held road shows and presented the facts. Several COMMITTEE members voiced their personal opinions; some for and some against. Read again those publications I mentioned earlier. They clearly state the MEC’s position on the TA was officially NEUTRAL. You claimed to have them, have read them, and understood them; apparently not.

Buddy, what you don’t know would fill a C-5 to the brim. I’m so glad you fly for Valujet and I never needed to.

 

[Lear70]

Instead of pointing out your GLARING errors, I'm simply going to let you have the last word.

To be specific, in case you try to twist this somehow into you "winning" the argument, I know you have no clue what you're talking about; I know that I DO because I've lived it the last half decade.

It's simply NOT worth my time to point out your MULTIPLE errors, you've already ignored the few you have no answer for, and I believe it would be time purely wasted on you. You've already closed your mind to the obvious.

Good luck to the NWA F/A's, looking forward to seeing you get an agreement worth your time to come to work.

 

[TurboAWD]

You were probably still recovering from your lobotomy and don't remember when Mesa received their 1st RJ. Mesa's RJ pay was well below anything else in the industry, that is how they grew and obtained flying from other regionals. Just ask Air Wisconsin.

Which happened because mainline pilots gave up scope and allowed SEVERAL companies to bid on their flying. Making it very difficult for any one of those groups to climb up the contractual ladder. It was NOT nessisary to fragment the pilot groups to make the RJ cost effective.

And if I get stuck flying a 76 seat AC at 9E, I don't want any BS from mainline pilots for flying it, because YOU gave it up (and signed up for lower payrates and work rules than some regionals flying SMALLER jets).


Turbo

 

[XShipRider]

You got to give kudos to the fa's for having the balls (figuratively speaking) to stand up to managements' bs. They have shown much more grit than most pilot groups who have talked big and then accepted excessively onerous concessionary contracts.

I hope their "balls" can stand up to unemployment when the airline goes
TU.

 

[TurboAWD]

I hope their "balls" can stand up to unemployment when the airline goes
TU.

Even if the FA's keep their current contract, NW will come out of CH11 as a VERY strong competitor.

The FA's have already proven what the Pilots didn't dare find out: A NO vote does not = automatic imposition of mgmt terms or liquidation of the airline.

There are many interested parties beyond the employee groups who have a vested interest in NW not going away.

Turbo

 

[Thomas39]

And if I get stuck flying a 76 seat AC at 9E, I don't want any BS from mainline pilots for flying it, because YOU gave it up (and signed up for lower payrates and work rules than some regionals flying SMALLER jets).

Turbo,

Put up or shut up. Are you saying that our 76 seat rates are below the 50 seat pay average? Give an example to prove what you are talking about. Show me specifically that there is a regional carrier out there that is flying a SMALLER aircraft and being paid more for what an NWA or NWA affiliate pilot will make for flying a LARGER aircraft.

 

[TurboAWD]

Turbo,

Put up or shut up. Are you saying that our 76 seat rates are below the 50 seat pay average? Give an example to prove what you are talking about. Show me specifically that there is a regional carrier out there that is flying a SMALLER aircraft and being paid more for what an NWA or NWA affiliate pilot will make for flying a LARGER aircraft.

Well, I feel like you should have been familiar with this before you voted, however...

Well, look at Horizon rates for CRJ700 (for starters). Smaller airplane, more pay. Also (if I recall correctly) profit sharing, trip rigs and duty rigs.
Max CA around $121 (BTW even the Q400 turboprop tops at $111)

Also see below for max CA/FO (again, CRJ 700, smaller AC than Compass):
Comair $108/47 (after concessions, I think but not sure)
ASA $102/44

Now for the REAL pisser:
Max MAINLINE nw EMB195 CA $105 (4th yr FO $47)
Can't find the Compass pay right now, but you should be able to find it quickly.

Like I said, thanks alot.

PS, since you are telling regional pilots how to move up in the world, may I recommend a reorganization of the NW MEC to more appropriately represent the pilot group? The SEA and ANC LEC's have a bit too much representation given their small number of (very senior) pilots.

Turbo (don't think I'll "Shut Up" quite yet)

 

[Lear70]

POW!

Right in the kisser...

ROFLMAO!!

 

[PCL_128]

PS, since you are telling regional pilots how to move up in the world, may I recommend a reorganization of the NW MEC to more appropriately represent the pilot group? The SEA and ANC LEC's have a bit too much representation given their small number of (very senior) pilots.

I see your point, but reorganization for that isn't necessary. Any MEC member can call for a roll call vote on any issue. In a roll call vote, each member of the MEC only has as much weight as the amount of members that he represents (ie. Ray Miller gets one vote for each DTW Captain that he represents, Dan Gradwohl gets one vote for each MSP SO he represents, etc...). That makes sure that there isn't unequal representation.

 

[TurboAWD]

Yeah, I know, but it still seems a bit off.

BTW- Love that letter from the 9E MEC this week.

PNCL can kiss it if they think I would vote yes on anything that resembles their "final offer".

Turbo

 

[PCL_128]

PNCL can kiss it if they think I would vote yes on anything that resembles their "final offer".

Can I get an Amen?! :beer: