NetJets Recalls

[T-1GUY]

So G4 where is your red line ??? How do you calibrate a safe range without one ? 34 years of flying and never fatigued flying international??? As a professional I would ask you to seriously re-evaluate your decision making process when it comes to this subject. I would hate to see your personal red line be a grave stone marker, taking yourself, pax, and company with you..

 

[realityman]

Good post, but i don't see where 5 hours of sleep is unsafe. Coffee helps. If the 5 hours sleep happens 2 or 3 nights consecutively, that would be fatiguing, however. No argument there.

Depends on the circumstances. In my post, if we had been assigned a later transcon that finished after, say, 10 hours of duty, we would have been looking back at only 5 hours of sleep about a 34 hour period. So as my partner and I had discussed, while we weren't too fatigued to do a little flying that night, we felt that looking ahead we would have been flying an approach at the end of the transcon in a dangerously fatigued condition. Hence the reason we decided to fatigue IF the company had assigned any such trip.

And while I understand your point, 5 hours of sleep WILL leave MOST folks still feeling tired, especially if they were worked pretty hard prior to that sleep. Coffee? Wish it worked, but I don't touch the stuff.

I agree that 5 hours by itself may not necessarily be unsafe, but there are a lot of surrounding factors (as I just discussed) to be able to make a blanket statement such as yours. In my example, one 5 hour session would not have been enough to have us fly a long duty day on the backside of the clock again.

B the way, I'm not some out of shape old guy. I'm 41 and run marathons. Fairly quickly. But the kind of schedule I described knocks me on my butt.

 

[X-rated]

There's a difference between being tired and being what most people call fatigued. Anyone who states they've never flown while tired is a liar.

ding,ding,ding....

If I thought it was unsafe to fly when I was "a little tired" I'd never set my alarm for 0300 again. Heck, I'd never show before 10am.

Look, if you are really tired, don't fly. Nobody wants you to. If you allow yourself to consider furloughed pilots while weighing that decision, you are being unprofessional, and are unethically promoting your agenda under the guise of safety. It's just as bad as management reviewing CVR's to get dirt on a pilot they don't like. Safety is sacrosanct, and anyone who misuses it's protection to promote their personal agenda illegitimizes and diminishes the safety environment. I can't respect that behavior no matter how honorable the cause.

 

[OPECJet]

ding,ding,ding....

If I thought it was unsafe to fly when I was "a little tired" I'd never set my alarm for 0300 again. Heck, I'd never show before 10am.

Look, if you are really tired, don't fly. Nobody wants you to. If you allow yourself to consider furloughed pilots while weighing that decision, you are being unprofessional, and are unethically promoting your agenda under the guise of safety. It's just as bad as management reviewing CVR's to get dirt on a pilot they don't like. Safety is sacrosanct, and anyone who misuses it's protection to promote their personal agenda illegitimizes and diminishes the safety environment. I can't respect that behavior no matter how honorable the cause.

Good post.

 

[realityman]

ding,ding,ding....

If I thought it was unsafe to fly when I was "a little tired" I'd never set my alarm for 0300 again. Heck, I'd never show before 10am.

Look, if you are really tired, don't fly. Nobody wants you to. If you allow yourself to consider furloughed pilots while weighing that decision, you are being unprofessional, and are unethically promoting your agenda under the guise of safety. It's just as bad as management reviewing CVR's to get dirt on a pilot they don't like. Safety is sacrosanct, and anyone who misuses it's protection to promote their personal agenda illegitimizes and diminishes the safety environment. I can't respect that behavior no matter how honorable the cause.

+1

A little common sense goes a long way sometimes.

 

[fischman]

I'm sorry, I just don't get it. A little tired is not unsafe, just uncomfortable, it seems to me, with all due respect. And I couldn't care LESS what the Union wants me to do.

I guess "a little drunk" isn't unsafe either.

"A little tired" IS unsafe. The company AND the union have asked REPEATEDLY to NOT fly in this compromised state. I sincerely hope that you are not a Captain with this attitude. I you are a Captain, I sincerely hope that your FO has the guts to tell you that this is a bad idea.

Flying tired puts you in a more compromised state that flying drunk. It is unsafe. It is stupid. Don't do it.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I guess "a little drunk" isn't unsafe either.

"A little tired" IS unsafe. The company AND the union have asked REPEATEDLY to NOT fly in this compromised state. I sincerely hope that you are not a Captain with this attitude. I you are a Captain, I sincerely hope that your FO has the guts to tell you that this is a bad idea.

Flying tired puts you in a more compromised state that flying drunk. It is unsafe. It is stupid. Don't do it.

A little tired can get you a little dead or a little violated. Kinda like a little pregnant.

 

[NachoMamma]

Kinda like a little pregnant.

That only happens AFTER getting a little violated.

 

[G4dude]

I guess "a little drunk" isn't unsafe either.

"A little tired" IS unsafe. The company AND the union have asked REPEATEDLY to NOT fly in this compromised state. I sincerely hope that you are not a Captain with this attitude. I you are a Captain, I sincerely hope that your FO has the guts to tell you that this is a bad idea.

Flying tired puts you in a more compromised state that flying drunk. It is unsafe. It is stupid. Don't do it.

Are you serious? A little tired is like being a little drunk? A little tired is unsafe? I feel I have stumbled through the Looking Glass for sure. I absolutely disagree with your assertions, and am amazed and disappointed to realize a colleague wrote it.

 

[G4dude]

So G4 where is your red line ??? How do you calibrate a safe range without one ? 34 years of flying and never fatigued flying international??? As a professional I would ask you to seriously re-evaluate your decision making process when it comes to this subject. I would hate to see your personal red line be a grave stone marker, taking yourself, pax, and company with you..

Good post, and a fair question. If I am assigned a trip during which at any point I think I will be at a reduced capacity beyond normal tiredness, then I intend to Fatigue. I do have an unusually high energy level, so maybe that is why I have never needed to go this route. However, I fail to see how this could happen at NetJets, with our rest rules, more than once a year or so.

 

[brokeflyer]

g4, you should just stop posting about this. You're just making yourself look really ignorant and everyone here knows it. b19 is your only friend on this matter, he don't care about safety either.

 

[BentOver]

Can we change the title of this thread? because "netjets recalls" sounds way too optimistic!!

Instead call it G4 is superhuman!!! because he has a high energy level...

ppplleeaasseee.....I have a high energy level, very high in fact, and I had fatigued numeruous times. Not for personal gain but because I was genuinely tired even with plenty of sleep and a high energy level. Sometimes with good rest you're still tired. It can range from the type of sleep, what you ate, how late you ate, what you ate for breakfast, circaidian rythms, humidity, etc....

no way this guy can say he's never been tired at the controls. In 34 years.... BS....

 

[fischman]

Are you serious? A little tired is like being a little drunk? A little tired is unsafe? I feel I have stumbled through the Looking Glass for sure. I absolutely disagree with your assertions, and am amazed and disappointed to realize a colleague wrote it.

Yes. I am serious. Being a little tired is exactly like being intoxicated. A little tired IS UNSAFE. Have you been living under a rock?!? Are YOU being serious?

Trust me, the majority of the disappointment is on THIS side of the computer.

 

[imacdog]

Are you serious? A little tired is like being a little drunk? A little tired is unsafe? I feel I have stumbled through the Looking Glass for sure. I absolutely disagree with your assertions, and am amazed and disappointed to realize a colleague wrote it.

I suppose you're also disappointed in your colleagues who have actually performed the studies to come to these conclusions?

 

[glasspilot]

Maybe a definition of "a little tired" is in order. I'm pretty sure it means different things to both sides of the debate. In the end I think everybody agrees.

Heck, I can wake up "a little tired", and not with an alarm clock. The phrase doesn't really mean anything but "a little drunk" does mean something. I'm just saying let's define the term if we're going to use it to go to war with each other.