NetJets Recalls

[fischman]

G4, it's okay to be wrong...

http://cf.alpa.org/internet/projects/ftdt/alpmag/FATIGUE.html

http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/epworth.html

http://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/zteam/

 

[G4dude]

http://cf.alpa.org/internet/projects/ftdt/alpmag/FATIGUE.html

http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/epworth.html

http://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/zteam/

Good links, and thanks, but they do not address what our dispute is. I am a BIG believer in not flying if you are sleepy. I had a personal experience with that years ago that shocked me to the core which involved flying after 3 consecutive days of 3 AM wakeup calls. I felt fine, but I was not fine at all, and I made a big error. What I am dismayed with is the statement that fatiguing is the right thing to do if one is "a little tired." And that being "a little tired" is tantamount to being "a little drunk."

 

[brokeflyer]

you had your chance....and you blew it.

 

[fischman]

Good links, and thanks, but they do not address what our dispute is. I am a BIG believer in not flying if you are sleepy. I had a personal experience with that years ago that shocked me to the core which involved flying after 3 consecutive days of 3 AM wakeup calls. I felt fine, but I was not fine at all, and I made a big error. What I am dismayed with is the statement that fatiguing is the right thing to do if one is "a little tired." And that being "a little tired" is tantamount to being "a little drunk."

I've been in contact with our VP of Safety at NetJets and am going to get you some data that proves my point. I just hope that you give it a fair look and a healthy fear of flying fatigued, or even "a little tired".

Here's another resource for you. It illustrates the dangers of operating a car while fatigued, which in my opinion is only more dangerous when operating an aircraft.
http://www.nysgtsc.state.ny.us/drow-ndx.htm

...And my favorite highlights.

"Drowsiness causes: slow reaction times, impaired judgment and vision, decline in attention, decreased alertness, increased moodiness and aggressive behavior, problems with processing information and short term memory."

"Contrary to popular belief, caffeine is not a substitute for sleep but can improve alertness especially when combined with a nap."

"When you are behind the wheel of a car, being sleepy is dangerous. Although most people know how dangerous drinking and driving is, they may not fully realize that drowsy driving can be just as fatal as driving drunk. Like drugs or alcohol, sleepiness slows reaction time, decreases awareness, impairs judgment and increases your risk of a crash. However, it's difficult to attribute crashes to sleepiness because there is no standardized test for drowsiness, as there is for intoxication. This lack of standard criteria for determining when a driver is sleepy may be one reason there is little or no police training in identifying drowsiness as a crash factor."




Here's a news article (I know. Just some writer's opinion, but I share it) I found.


http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.co...s/101109-Driving-Tired-is-Like-Driving-Drunk/

"Driving tired is like driving drunk. “Just like alcohol or drugs, sleepiness slows reaction time and impairs judgment, according to AAA Foundation president and CEO Peter Kissinger,” Edmunds elaborates. “And drowsy driving can be just as dangerous as driving under the influence.”"



So yes. I feel that flying "a little tired", "drowsy", or "sleepy" is dangerous, and I will not do it. As a matter of fact, I called in fatigued last night and am sitting safely in a hotel room. Rested, and ready to tackle today's flight assignment safely. Had I NOT called in, I would have already completed a leg today. I would be pumped full of coffee, and only be able to give NetJets and our owners 70% at best.

Does that mean another crew had to pick up my trip? Yes it does. You have to have faith that THAT crew was better rested and able to give those owners the 100% they deserve. It is what they pay for. It is what they want. It is what they deserve.

It isn't hard. Just call up the Flight Manager and say, "I am fatigued." You want to know what will happen? The FM will say, "OK. We'll get you some rest. Have a good night. Get some sleep." Will you get in trouble? No! Will you get in trouble if you damage an aircraft (or die) because you are tired? Yes! (And you will effectively RUIN NetJets brand in the process).

In summary, if you are "a little tired" your judgement is already impaired, as is your memory. (A little trick I do is that if I can't remember the callsign for the flight during a radio call, especially if I have been on the same tail all week, then I am starting to get "a little tired"). It isn't safe! Don't do it! Call in fatigued! Your MANAGEMENT doesn't want you to fly fatigued (neither does your Union)!

 

[BentOver]

so...um yeah,, is Netjets gonna recall over the next 2-3 years

 

[Jack Campbell]

Does ANYONE see recalls before 2013?! I don't. We are screwed for the next 3 years. I'd love to return to what was a great job, but guys, it's not going to happen. I very sincerely hope I'm wrong.

 

[BentOver]

Does ANYONE see recalls before 2013?! I don't. We are screwed for the next 3 years. I'd love to return to what was a great job, but guys, it's not going to happen. I very sincerely hope I'm wrong.

nice thing though is 2013 is only a year and half away:beer: 3 years would be pushing 2014.5!!!

 

[FLYLOW22]

You guys wanna see a pilot in a cool blue jacket?

 

[BentOver]

not as much as I wanna see a grown man naked......







What does a cool blue jacket have to do with anything? I think I'm lost!!

 

[ozpilot]

You guys wanna see a pilot in a cool blue jacket?

HaHaHa! (inside joke) :laugh:

 

[acaTerry]

Whoopy-ding. I do that EVERY tour, as a west coast based pilot after airlining to the east coast over 2, sometimes 3 legs. That's waking up at midnight-ish my time, to do my 12-13 hrs of duty. Let's throw a nice shift to 2 pm in there and back to mornings too. Do this EVERY TIME you go to work and you'll see why we "pu$$ies" fatigue.
I find it easier to work hard physically after no sleep than to fly. Because I am moving. My body is doing something. I can do things that stimulate, not dull, my senses. I bet you can close your cockpit door, do a puzzle or something. Us? Nope. Sit there and look out the window, hour after hour fighting the sandman off after multiple circadian shifts EVERY TIME we go to work.
You are a baptist preacher at the pulpit in a Jewish church here. You don't know what you are talking about, and your opinions and insults mean nothing.

 

[acaTerry]

Disregard...dbl post

 

[Jack Campbell]

nice thing though is 2013 is only a year and half away:beer: 3 years would be pushing 2014.5!!!

If you were paying attention to recent events at Netjets, you would know that deliveries of new aircraft will be coming online at NJ in 2012 and 2013, and that 2013 has been mentioned as when recalls will be happening. IN CONTRAST, I don't see recalls for at least 3 years. I didn't think I needed to spell that all out, but I can see you need it. Does that clear it up for you? Or are you one of these pilots who needs to call out your colleagues for every percieved misstep in order to make yourself feel smart? :beer:

Now, can we get back to the topic of this thread?

 

[johnsonrod]

Fleet type predictions...

Ok, wanted to move away from the insults and slamming so prevelant on this board. I am not trying to be funny or repetitive - just want to lighten up the discussion a bit. I hope the economy improves in the next year or two and fractional/Marquis Card flying increases so that furloughed pilots can start to come back soon - I know 2 guys who are furloughed and want to ultimately return if offered because they enjoyed the flying...

Understanding that anything can happen, some basic questions for those who are interested. What will the Netjets fleet look like in 5-7 years? Will the fleet continue to consolidate to just a few types? Would 4-5 fleet types be the ultimate goal with fleet type disposals announced in the near future?

So, the fleet in 5-7 years will "likely" be comprised of (I realize it is all specuation):

Embraer Phenom 300s
Global Express XRS
Embraer 450/500?
Lear 85?
Challenger 300?
...

Please skip if you are not interested in predictions.

 

[rajflyboy]

Ok, wanted to move away from the insults and slamming so prevelant on this board. I am not trying to be funny or repetitive - just want to lighten up the discussion a bit. I hope the economy improves in the next year or two and fractional/Marquis Card flying increases so that furloughed pilots can start to come back soon - I know 2 guys who are furloughed and want to ultimately return if offered because they enjoyed the flying...

Understanding that anything can happen, some basic questions for those who are interested. What will the Netjets fleet look like in 5-7 years? Will the fleet continue to consolidate to just a few types? Would 4-5 fleet types be the ultimate goal with fleet type disposals announced in the near future?

So, the fleet in 5-7 years will "likely" be comprised of (I realize it is all specuation):

Embraer Phenom 300s
Global Express XRS
Embraer 450/500?
Lear 85?
Challenger 300?
...

Please skip if you are not interested in predictions.

I think you are pretty damn close!

 

[jtf]

I have to guess NJA will order the new Citation Ten- too many customers like the supposed speed advantage so much they don't care that they could have a much larger cabin for the same price or cheaper and still arrive within 15 minutes of the X or Ten on all but the longest flights. Whatever sells shares is fine by me, but you won't ever catch me flying that thing- the company is too good at utilizing them and I hate long flights in a cramped cockpit.

As far as the other predictions, I wouldn't be surprised at all other than I think it will take more than 5 to 7 years to shed all the other airframes unless the manufacturers continue to step up with the trade-ins.

 

[BentOver]

If you were paying attention to recent events at Netjets, you would know that deliveries of new aircraft will be coming online at NJ in 2012 and 2013, and that 2013 has been mentioned as when recalls will be happening. IN CONTRAST, I don't see recalls for at least 3 years. I didn't think I needed to spell that all out, but I can see you need it. Does that clear it up for you? Or are you one of these pilots who needs to call out your colleagues for every percieved misstep in order to make yourself feel smart? :beer:

Now, can we get back to the topic of this thread?

Umm, yeah, so before I was totally joking with you......did you eat your wheaties yet??

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

You are a baptist preacher at the pulpit in a Jewish church here. You don't know what you are talking about, and your opinions and insults mean nothing.

Uhh, that's Synagogue, Sir.


Sorry, Couldn't resist.

 

[NJAowner]

Entrance door vs. Exit Door

Just a thought -- but it seems that recalls can't happen until there are more new owner shares than departing owner shares. And from what I hear (which I admit is anecdotal since i do not have access to the real numbers), the line at the exit door is much more crowded than the line at the entrance door.

Of course if present management was concerned about present owners the line at the exit door may be shorter. But they don't. Cut expenses no mater what the ultimate cost!

 

[BentOver]

Just a thought -- but it seems that recalls can't happen until there are more new owner shares than departing owner shares. And from what I hear (which I admit is anecdotal since i do not have access to the real numbers), the line at the exit door is much more crowded than the line at the entrance door.

Of course if present management was concerned about present owners the line at the exit door may be shorter. But they don't. Cut expenses no mater what the ultimate cost!

Not trying to knock the other companies..But where are they going to?? Service, from pilots down to catering etc...Is most likely similar between all the fractionals. But no other company can offer the depth of service and reliability of NJA.....just based solely on the pure vastness of NJA's fleet and numbers....

If they are going to charter, I would be inclined to believe that NJA was and is too expensive for those people and always has been. Charter can really be hit or miss, and anyone who flies enough of it is bound to get bitten by either a bad operator or simply by an unreliable operation.....

If you were to consider leaving NJA (if you haven't already) where would you consider going? Taking into account price, service, reliablity, any perks (poker events etc) ability to pay for an Excel and get a ride in a Falcon....

I know some service has been cut (no more Fiji water and longer hold times for phone calls) but where else are you seeing drastic cost cutting that is making people want to leave in droves...

FWIW, management has relayed that the retention rate is actually doing quite well. No idea about new owners, but they seemed pleased with retention.. (of course lies and mis-information may and always will be at play here)......