NetJets Recalls

[T-1GUY]

So G4 where is your red line ??? How do you calibrate a safe range without one ? 34 years of flying and never fatigued flying international??? As a professional I would ask you to seriously re-evaluate your decision making process when it comes to this subject. I would hate to see your personal red line be a grave stone marker, taking yourself, pax, and company with you..

 

[realityman]

Good post, but i don't see where 5 hours of sleep is unsafe. Coffee helps. If the 5 hours sleep happens 2 or 3 nights consecutively, that would be fatiguing, however. No argument there.

Depends on the circumstances. In my post, if we had been assigned a later transcon that finished after, say, 10 hours of duty, we would have been looking back at only 5 hours of sleep about a 34 hour period. So as my partner and I had discussed, while we weren't too fatigued to do a little flying that night, we felt that looking ahead we would have been flying an approach at the end of the transcon in a dangerously fatigued condition. Hence the reason we decided to fatigue IF the company had assigned any such trip.

And while I understand your point, 5 hours of sleep WILL leave MOST folks still feeling tired, especially if they were worked pretty hard prior to that sleep. Coffee? Wish it worked, but I don't touch the stuff.

I agree that 5 hours by itself may not necessarily be unsafe, but there are a lot of surrounding factors (as I just discussed) to be able to make a blanket statement such as yours. In my example, one 5 hour session would not have been enough to have us fly a long duty day on the backside of the clock again.

B the way, I'm not some out of shape old guy. I'm 41 and run marathons. Fairly quickly. But the kind of schedule I described knocks me on my butt.

 

[X-rated]

There's a difference between being tired and being what most people call fatigued. Anyone who states they've never flown while tired is a liar.

ding,ding,ding....

If I thought it was unsafe to fly when I was "a little tired" I'd never set my alarm for 0300 again. Heck, I'd never show before 10am.

Look, if you are really tired, don't fly. Nobody wants you to. If you allow yourself to consider furloughed pilots while weighing that decision, you are being unprofessional, and are unethically promoting your agenda under the guise of safety. It's just as bad as management reviewing CVR's to get dirt on a pilot they don't like. Safety is sacrosanct, and anyone who misuses it's protection to promote their personal agenda illegitimizes and diminishes the safety environment. I can't respect that behavior no matter how honorable the cause.

 

[OPECJet]

ding,ding,ding....

If I thought it was unsafe to fly when I was "a little tired" I'd never set my alarm for 0300 again. Heck, I'd never show before 10am.

Look, if you are really tired, don't fly. Nobody wants you to. If you allow yourself to consider furloughed pilots while weighing that decision, you are being unprofessional, and are unethically promoting your agenda under the guise of safety. It's just as bad as management reviewing CVR's to get dirt on a pilot they don't like. Safety is sacrosanct, and anyone who misuses it's protection to promote their personal agenda illegitimizes and diminishes the safety environment. I can't respect that behavior no matter how honorable the cause.

Good post.

 

[realityman]

ding,ding,ding....

If I thought it was unsafe to fly when I was "a little tired" I'd never set my alarm for 0300 again. Heck, I'd never show before 10am.

Look, if you are really tired, don't fly. Nobody wants you to. If you allow yourself to consider furloughed pilots while weighing that decision, you are being unprofessional, and are unethically promoting your agenda under the guise of safety. It's just as bad as management reviewing CVR's to get dirt on a pilot they don't like. Safety is sacrosanct, and anyone who misuses it's protection to promote their personal agenda illegitimizes and diminishes the safety environment. I can't respect that behavior no matter how honorable the cause.

+1

A little common sense goes a long way sometimes.

 

[fischman]

I'm sorry, I just don't get it. A little tired is not unsafe, just uncomfortable, it seems to me, with all due respect. And I couldn't care LESS what the Union wants me to do.

I guess "a little drunk" isn't unsafe either.

"A little tired" IS unsafe. The company AND the union have asked REPEATEDLY to NOT fly in this compromised state. I sincerely hope that you are not a Captain with this attitude. I you are a Captain, I sincerely hope that your FO has the guts to tell you that this is a bad idea.

Flying tired puts you in a more compromised state that flying drunk. It is unsafe. It is stupid. Don't do it.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I guess "a little drunk" isn't unsafe either.

"A little tired" IS unsafe. The company AND the union have asked REPEATEDLY to NOT fly in this compromised state. I sincerely hope that you are not a Captain with this attitude. I you are a Captain, I sincerely hope that your FO has the guts to tell you that this is a bad idea.

Flying tired puts you in a more compromised state that flying drunk. It is unsafe. It is stupid. Don't do it.

A little tired can get you a little dead or a little violated. Kinda like a little pregnant.

 

[NachoMamma]

Kinda like a little pregnant.

That only happens AFTER getting a little violated.

 

[G4dude]

I guess "a little drunk" isn't unsafe either.

"A little tired" IS unsafe. The company AND the union have asked REPEATEDLY to NOT fly in this compromised state. I sincerely hope that you are not a Captain with this attitude. I you are a Captain, I sincerely hope that your FO has the guts to tell you that this is a bad idea.

Flying tired puts you in a more compromised state that flying drunk. It is unsafe. It is stupid. Don't do it.

Are you serious? A little tired is like being a little drunk? A little tired is unsafe? I feel I have stumbled through the Looking Glass for sure. I absolutely disagree with your assertions, and am amazed and disappointed to realize a colleague wrote it.

 

[G4dude]

So G4 where is your red line ??? How do you calibrate a safe range without one ? 34 years of flying and never fatigued flying international??? As a professional I would ask you to seriously re-evaluate your decision making process when it comes to this subject. I would hate to see your personal red line be a grave stone marker, taking yourself, pax, and company with you..

Good post, and a fair question. If I am assigned a trip during which at any point I think I will be at a reduced capacity beyond normal tiredness, then I intend to Fatigue. I do have an unusually high energy level, so maybe that is why I have never needed to go this route. However, I fail to see how this could happen at NetJets, with our rest rules, more than once a year or so.

 

[brokeflyer]

g4, you should just stop posting about this. You're just making yourself look really ignorant and everyone here knows it. b19 is your only friend on this matter, he don't care about safety either.

 

[BentOver]

Can we change the title of this thread? because "netjets recalls" sounds way too optimistic!!

Instead call it G4 is superhuman!!! because he has a high energy level...

ppplleeaasseee.....I have a high energy level, very high in fact, and I had fatigued numeruous times. Not for personal gain but because I was genuinely tired even with plenty of sleep and a high energy level. Sometimes with good rest you're still tired. It can range from the type of sleep, what you ate, how late you ate, what you ate for breakfast, circaidian rythms, humidity, etc....

no way this guy can say he's never been tired at the controls. In 34 years.... BS....

 

[fischman]

Are you serious? A little tired is like being a little drunk? A little tired is unsafe? I feel I have stumbled through the Looking Glass for sure. I absolutely disagree with your assertions, and am amazed and disappointed to realize a colleague wrote it.

Yes. I am serious. Being a little tired is exactly like being intoxicated. A little tired IS UNSAFE. Have you been living under a rock?!? Are YOU being serious?

Trust me, the majority of the disappointment is on THIS side of the computer.

 

[imacdog]

Are you serious? A little tired is like being a little drunk? A little tired is unsafe? I feel I have stumbled through the Looking Glass for sure. I absolutely disagree with your assertions, and am amazed and disappointed to realize a colleague wrote it.

I suppose you're also disappointed in your colleagues who have actually performed the studies to come to these conclusions?

 

[glasspilot]

Maybe a definition of "a little tired" is in order. I'm pretty sure it means different things to both sides of the debate. In the end I think everybody agrees.

Heck, I can wake up "a little tired", and not with an alarm clock. The phrase doesn't really mean anything but "a little drunk" does mean something. I'm just saying let's define the term if we're going to use it to go to war with each other.

 

[platinum750]

I understand what the goal of this topic is. But you guys are embarrassing. I take October off to work a harvest, either running a tractor or driving truck. During this time I will work up to twenty hours a day with little sleep and love it. It's only for 4-6 weeks but nobody gets killed. If ya can't get up and watch the plane fly you should fatigue forever.

 

[brokeflyer]

I understand what the goal of this topic is. But you guys are embarrassing. I take October off to work a harvest, either running a tractor or driving truck. During this time I will work up to twenty hours a day with little sleep and love it. It's only for 4-6 weeks but nobody gets killed. If ya can't get up and watch the plane fly you should fatigue forever.

oh no not another one
with an attitude like that no wonder we have accidents.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

I'm a little tired. Good night, I'm going to sleep now.

 

[LAZYB]

I'm a little tired. Good night, I'm going to sleep now.

Where ya landing, Teterhole

 

[vtwo]

AGAIN!!!! so when is the recall happening?
I'm tired.

 

[G4dude]

Yes. I am serious. Being a little tired is exactly like being intoxicated. A little tired IS UNSAFE. Have you been living under a rock?!? Are YOU being serious?

Trust me, the majority of the disappointment is on THIS side of the computer.

A little tired is NOT unsafe, nor is it even remotely like being intoxicated. This is nuts. If you were a pilot for me I would fire you.

 

[realityman]

I understand what the goal of this topic is. But you guys are embarrassing. I take October off to work a harvest, either running a tractor or driving truck. During this time I will work up to twenty hours a day with little sleep and love it. It's only for 4-6 weeks but nobody gets killed. If ya can't get up and watch the plane fly you should fatigue forever.

What the heck does this have to do with anything being discussed here?

Harvests, tractors, and airplanes? Oh yeah, I can see the similarity. NOT!

"Oh, I'm sleepy while driving my tractor. Look! I'm off course and harvesting the wheat instead of the corn! AHHHHH!!!!"

So, what? You have your farming certificate pulled? You'll face legal action? You'll be killed?

There are many things in life I can do while fatigued, and even enjoy doing them. That doesn't mean they're good comparisons to operating aircraft while fatigued.

By the way, there have been many accidents in the farming industry where folks have lost limbs, or their lives, around the farm equipment. But maybe not so many studies done on the relationship between operating farm machinery fatigued and corresponding accidents. Same as there weren't a lot of correlations made between aircraft accidents and fatigue until people started actually looking into it. And even if it doesn't involve damage to humans, how much farm equipment has been damaged because a sleepy farmer wasn't paying as close attention as he should have been to the operation of his equipment? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this stuff isn't tracked in the farming industry the way it is in the aviation industry.

For all of the reasons mentioned above, your sarcastic comparison holds no water.

On a slightly different note, I agree with Glasspilot that perhaps the trouble with this thread is no one has adequately defined "a little tired". I've listened to people on our union boards complain about how hard the company is running them, and that they are completely exhausted when reaching the hotel. Well, if they're that tired when reaching the hotel, then I'll bet everything I own that they were at least "a little tired" when flying that last leg. And some of those folks are the same ones here on this thread saying they won't fly "a little tired".

I don't think flying "a little tired" is a problem in itself. I think finishing a leg "a little tired", and then facing another, perhaps longer, flight where you would then finish "a lot tired" is the real problem. Starting a flight "a little tired" without thinking about what you'll feel like at the end of that flight is where the real danger lies. IMHO.

 

[G4dude]

oh no not another one
with an attitude like that no wonder we have accidents.

Yeah, watching all those tubes and gages is really exhausting and fatiguing. Seriously, I had no idea there were pilots out there who fatigue at the drop of a hat, and it is embarrassing. I thought at my age I had heard it all, or at least most of it.

 

[vtwo]

omg?? you do realize you are arguing on the internet right?
Now I say again , when are the recalls happening?

 

[ozpilot]

omg?? you do realize you are arguing on the internet right?
Now I say again , when are the recalls happening?

vtwo - no indication of when recalls will start. Too much uncertainty right now. I'm going to company recurrent next month and will certainly ask the question but I don't expect a direct answer.

It is an interesting discussion on "a little tired" and fatigued.

Every pilot at some point flys a little tired. If you have ever yawned in the cockpit, your were a little tired. If the alarm clock in your hotel room has woken you up then your already a little tired.

Being a little tired, in my opinion, is not a threat to safety. Being fatigued definitely is. So the real question is at what point do you go from being a little tired to being fatigued? Thats what we should be discussing.

Here are some signs that you are fatigued.

The occasion yawn turns into numerous yawns
"head bob"
Missed radio calls
Mistakes made in control input, such as dialling in frequencies or programming the FMS
Your short term memory deteriorates "What frequency did he say?"

The real challenge with fatigue is that if you experience any of the above symptoms in the cockpit it is already too late. You should not have taken off. The challenge is to look at the leg you plan to fly and be able to predict if you can complete it safely without becomming fatigued.

 

[brokeflyer]

Yeah, watching all those tubes and gages is really exhausting and fatiguing. Seriously, I had no idea there were pilots out there who fatigue at the drop of a hat, and it is embarrassing. I thought at my age I had heard it all, or at least most of it.

You dont understand much about this business. If you were in my right seat id make you go do something that involves touching ******************** with your bare hands.

When you get a clue and stop being dumb then we'll talk.

your apology will accepted.

 

[fischman]

A little tired is NOT unsafe, nor is it even remotely like being intoxicated. This is nuts. If you were a pilot for me I would fire you.

That's alright. If you worked for me, I'd fire you for your active disregard for safety.

You wouldn't need to fire me, I would never work for an operation with your attitude anyway. My resignation would be yours. References wouldn't be required. I don't want to be associated with pilots like you.

 

[ProFracPilot]

The real challenge with fatigue is that if you experience any of the above symptoms in the cockpit it is already too late. You should not have taken off.

:beer:

 

[transpac]

Well, guess I can't fly before 10 AM anymore. I'm always tired until I have a leisurely shower and a few cups of coffee. Ditto flying after lunch and dinner. I always get a little sleepy after a full meal. And, flying after dark is out since dark and sleep are associated in my mind. I'll just have to call in fatigued except between 10 AM and noon. If there's a lot of bags to load I might not be able to fly at all.

 

[brokeflyer]

Well, guess I can't fly before 10 AM anymore. I'm always tired until I have a leisurely shower and a few cups of coffee. Ditto flying after lunch and dinner. I always get a little sleepy after a full meal. And, flying after dark is out since dark and sleep are associated in my mind. I'll just have to call in fatigued except between 10 AM and noon. If there's a lot of bags to load I might not be able to fly at all.

finally, someone understands.