GogglesPisano
Pawn, in game of life
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FlyBoeingJets
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Re: Re: Unsolicited religion has no place
Since this thread has gone terribly out of control, I will offer my own opinion.
Those JackA$$ Arabs have no idea that America and Israel are acting with RESTRAINT. Why they don't know, I'm not sure. Maybe they don't understand our culture, maybe they are (collectively) ignorant of the fact. Maybe they do know and practice terrorism thinking the gloves will never come off because we are weak and stupid. The only way to deal with this systemic terrorism is to retaliate in kind with overwhelming force. I hope enough of us realize this "war on terrorism" is bigger than the cold war. It is a war waged by a core group of muslims vs. everyone else. But it's not about religion, just old fashion power and influence. Muslim teachings are but a tool of these meglomaniacs and murderers. The separation of church and state scares them. It would take away their power and they want power over YOU and ME. They don't want people to have freedom. You either become a practicing Muslim or you are punished. Christians, however obnoxious you think they are, do want people to be free to believe or not believe. I sincerely feel for the average Arab/muslim that does not support the extremist leaders but have no choice but to fall in line. They deserve freedom too.
If the restraint being shown the Arab world is ever lifted they will know bloodshed not seen since WWII. This prospect does not make me happy but sad and fearful of what may yet come. But I welcome it over a slow and steady muslim takeover of the world. I pray we have the fortitude to fight off this threat.
Freedom isn't free, but security without freedom is not for me.
You decide what you want to stand for.
TWA Dude said:
Since this thread has gone terribly out of control, I will offer my own opinion.
Those JackA$$ Arabs have no idea that America and Israel are acting with RESTRAINT. Why they don't know, I'm not sure. Maybe they don't understand our culture, maybe they are (collectively) ignorant of the fact. Maybe they do know and practice terrorism thinking the gloves will never come off because we are weak and stupid. The only way to deal with this systemic terrorism is to retaliate in kind with overwhelming force. I hope enough of us realize this "war on terrorism" is bigger than the cold war. It is a war waged by a core group of muslims vs. everyone else. But it's not about religion, just old fashion power and influence. Muslim teachings are but a tool of these meglomaniacs and murderers. The separation of church and state scares them. It would take away their power and they want power over YOU and ME. They don't want people to have freedom. You either become a practicing Muslim or you are punished. Christians, however obnoxious you think they are, do want people to be free to believe or not believe. I sincerely feel for the average Arab/muslim that does not support the extremist leaders but have no choice but to fall in line. They deserve freedom too.
If the restraint being shown the Arab world is ever lifted they will know bloodshed not seen since WWII. This prospect does not make me happy but sad and fearful of what may yet come. But I welcome it over a slow and steady muslim takeover of the world. I pray we have the fortitude to fight off this threat.
Freedom isn't free, but security without freedom is not for me.
You decide what you want to stand for.
Last edited:
climbhappy
ex pat
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- Aug 11, 2002
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- 2,159
machpi...the moot of it is this
as i stated, the point is moot if you consider, the bickering mostly from those who were outraged due to mention of someone trying to encourage sharing the Gospel message. The message is a good one in my view.
It shouldn't bother someone who has no use for the message.
that's really the point. I think back to ty webb's remarks about shoving a fist down his throat. that's a comical violent response.
It indicates something is unsettled in that person. If you're happy and content with life, this captain's actions should even bother you. One might say, I wouldn't have done that, but to villify him? C'mon....
Paul said in Corinthians that the natural man cannot know and percieve the things of God because they are foolishness to him.
that's really what we have here. the scoffers versus those who in the spirit really know the only,living and true Almighty God. Moses said who shall I say that sent me? He said, "I Am"
The witnesses are called to share the message. It does require some tact though. REPEAT, IT DOES REQUIRE SOME TACT. CAN WE AGREE THAT MAYBE MORE TACT SHOULD HAVE BEEN USED.
To the scoffers, if you don't want or don't care about the message, then fine. Take care, and good Luck to you.
In sum, machpi, the bickering doesn't matter since to alot of you it is "foolishness" as St. Paul the apostle wrote anyway.WHY GET STEAMED ABOUT IT? THAT'S THE STRANGE PART
as i stated, the point is moot if you consider, the bickering mostly from those who were outraged due to mention of someone trying to encourage sharing the Gospel message. The message is a good one in my view.
It shouldn't bother someone who has no use for the message.
that's really the point. I think back to ty webb's remarks about shoving a fist down his throat. that's a comical violent response.
It indicates something is unsettled in that person. If you're happy and content with life, this captain's actions should even bother you. One might say, I wouldn't have done that, but to villify him? C'mon....
Paul said in Corinthians that the natural man cannot know and percieve the things of God because they are foolishness to him.
that's really what we have here. the scoffers versus those who in the spirit really know the only,living and true Almighty God. Moses said who shall I say that sent me? He said, "I Am"
The witnesses are called to share the message. It does require some tact though. REPEAT, IT DOES REQUIRE SOME TACT. CAN WE AGREE THAT MAYBE MORE TACT SHOULD HAVE BEEN USED.
To the scoffers, if you don't want or don't care about the message, then fine. Take care, and good Luck to you.
In sum, machpi, the bickering doesn't matter since to alot of you it is "foolishness" as St. Paul the apostle wrote anyway.WHY GET STEAMED ABOUT IT? THAT'S THE STRANGE PART
GogglesPisano
Pawn, in game of life
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"Good morning ladies and gentlemen, this is Captain Abu. I'd like to welcome everyone a board our flight to New York. We're currently number four for takeoff. I'd like any practicing Muslims on board to rasie ther hands. Go ahead, don't be afraid. There. Now, we've got a long flight ahead of us. If any of you have questions about Islam, please don't hesitate to ask some of our Muslim passengers about it. Use your time wisely. And thanks for flying American."
Neubyfly
Say Again?
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This guy needs his head examined!!!!!
Exclusive: Interview with American Airlines pilot who told Christian passengers to raise their hands
"If you have five minutes, I'll tell you why I did it," American Airlines captain Roger Findiesen told Advocate.com as Flight 34 had all but emptied out after its arrival at New York's JFK Airport, on Friday, February 6. "I felt that God was telling me to say something [to the passengers]."
Findiesen is the pilot about whom CNN and other media have been reporting since Saturday; even The New York Times ran a story about how an American Airlines pilot, using the P.A. system before takeoff from Los Angeles International Airport on Friday morning, requested that Christians on his flight identify themselves.
As the plane sat immobile, waiting for its slot to take off, Findiesen asked Christian passengers to raise their hands and said that "everyone else on board" might want to "make good use" of the flight. The implication was that non-Christians should learn about the Christian faith from the passengers who had raised their hands.
Passenger Amanda Nelligan told WCBS-TV of New York that the pilot called non-Christians "crazy" and that his comments "felt like a threat," although other passengers remember the word "crazy" having been playfully applied to the Christians on board. Nelligan said she and several others aboard were so worried they tried to call relatives on their cell phones before flight attendants assured them they were safe and that people on the ground had been notified about the pilot's comments.
Findiesen's identity has been shielded by American Airlines, but the pilot spoke candidly to The Advocate and Advocate.com editor in chief Bruce C. Steele, who identified himself to the captain at the end of the flight. Findiesen then confirmed to Steele his identity, the spelling of his name, and that his home base is Washington, D.C. At no time did Findiesen mention homosexuality or say anything antigay. During the three- to five-minute interview, he was positive and upbeat and interested only in explaining the importance of witnessing about his faith.
What Findiesen said, as best the stunned passengers could recall once they were able to move about the cabin and confer after Flight 34 took off, was this: "I just got back from a mission," Findiesen said after making a routine announcement about the plane being second in line for takeoff. "You know, they say about half of Americans are Christians. I'd just like the Christians on board to raise their hands."
In the suddenly hushed coach section of the airplane, a few nervous passengers raised one hand, most no higher than shoulder level, none above tops of the seats.
"I want everyone else on board to look around at how crazy these people are," the pilot continued, with an intonation suggesting he was using the word "crazy" in a positive, even admiring manner. Evidently addressing the non-Christian passengers, he concluded that they could "make good use of [the flight], or you can read your paper and watch the movie."
The movie on the flight was Under the Tuscan Sun, with Diane Lane and Sandra Oh as Lane's lesbian best friend.
Findiesen did not directly ask Christians to witness, nor did he explicitly ask non-Christians to talk to the people he imagined were raising their hands, but the implication that he hoped such interactions would take place was clear, and he confirmed his desire to foster religious discussion in his interview with Advocate.com.
"I just wanted to give Christians a chance to talk about why they're Christians," he said, standing in the forward galley at the end of the flight as the final passengers departed. "I obviously couldn't go back there and address everyone directly, so I used the P.A.
"I just got back from a mission in Costa Rica," said Findiesen, a tall white man with neatly trimmed thick white hair and a mustache, both lightly peppered with black. "I felt that God was telling me to say something." He went on to explain that he felt God wanted him to witness to the passengers on his first flight upon returning to work for American Airlines after his mission. Despite this feeling, he said, he had decided not to say anything--but then he got another sign from God.
A minor problem with the plane's braking system had developed during final checks before takeoff, he said, a problem that might have grounded the aircraft, on which every seat was taken, in part because another American flight from Los Angeles to New York had been canceled that morning. But after a simple maneuver involving a power source, the braking problem inexplicably "disappeared," Findiesen said, and the plane was cleared for departure, and that's when he knew he had to use the P.A. system to talk about his Christian faith.
Flight attendants were inundated with questions and complaints, and the pilot came back on to the P.A. system a couple of hours into the flight to apologize: Not to the paying passengers, but to the flight attendants. "I'd just like to apologize to the flight attendants" for the remarks he had made before takeoff, he said over the P.A. He said he had heard the crew had "taken a little heat" for his witnessing and that he would be available at the end of the flight to answer any questions or hear any complaints himself.
He then apologized again to the flight attendants and ended his announcement.
Asked by Advocate.com whether he felt he should also have apologized to his passengers, Findiesen paused. "I felt bad for the flight attendants," he said. As for the passengers, he said that he felt making himself available to talk to them as they deplaned was sufficient.
Asked whether it was part of his job as an American Airlines pilot, trusted with the safety of hundreds of passengers, to witness about his faith from the cockpit, he said it was not. But, he asserted, "there's actually no regulation against doing what I did." He also reminded Steele that the plane was not moving at the time of his original announcement.
The case was handed over to the airline's personnel department for an investigation, American Airlines spokesman Tim Wagner said Sunday. "It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job," he said.
Because of privacy issues, there would likely never be any announcement about what kind of punishment or reprimand the pilot may face, Wagner said.
While Findiesen repeated to Steele that he was sorry his fellow crew members had taken heat for his comments, he expressed no regret for having made them and no regret for not having apologized to the American Airlines customers he was serving on the flight. But, he added, "I won't do it again, if you want to make a big deal of it."
Exclusive: Interview with American Airlines pilot who told Christian passengers to raise their hands
"If you have five minutes, I'll tell you why I did it," American Airlines captain Roger Findiesen told Advocate.com as Flight 34 had all but emptied out after its arrival at New York's JFK Airport, on Friday, February 6. "I felt that God was telling me to say something [to the passengers]."
Findiesen is the pilot about whom CNN and other media have been reporting since Saturday; even The New York Times ran a story about how an American Airlines pilot, using the P.A. system before takeoff from Los Angeles International Airport on Friday morning, requested that Christians on his flight identify themselves.
As the plane sat immobile, waiting for its slot to take off, Findiesen asked Christian passengers to raise their hands and said that "everyone else on board" might want to "make good use" of the flight. The implication was that non-Christians should learn about the Christian faith from the passengers who had raised their hands.
Passenger Amanda Nelligan told WCBS-TV of New York that the pilot called non-Christians "crazy" and that his comments "felt like a threat," although other passengers remember the word "crazy" having been playfully applied to the Christians on board. Nelligan said she and several others aboard were so worried they tried to call relatives on their cell phones before flight attendants assured them they were safe and that people on the ground had been notified about the pilot's comments.
Findiesen's identity has been shielded by American Airlines, but the pilot spoke candidly to The Advocate and Advocate.com editor in chief Bruce C. Steele, who identified himself to the captain at the end of the flight. Findiesen then confirmed to Steele his identity, the spelling of his name, and that his home base is Washington, D.C. At no time did Findiesen mention homosexuality or say anything antigay. During the three- to five-minute interview, he was positive and upbeat and interested only in explaining the importance of witnessing about his faith.
What Findiesen said, as best the stunned passengers could recall once they were able to move about the cabin and confer after Flight 34 took off, was this: "I just got back from a mission," Findiesen said after making a routine announcement about the plane being second in line for takeoff. "You know, they say about half of Americans are Christians. I'd just like the Christians on board to raise their hands."
In the suddenly hushed coach section of the airplane, a few nervous passengers raised one hand, most no higher than shoulder level, none above tops of the seats.
"I want everyone else on board to look around at how crazy these people are," the pilot continued, with an intonation suggesting he was using the word "crazy" in a positive, even admiring manner. Evidently addressing the non-Christian passengers, he concluded that they could "make good use of [the flight], or you can read your paper and watch the movie."
The movie on the flight was Under the Tuscan Sun, with Diane Lane and Sandra Oh as Lane's lesbian best friend.
Findiesen did not directly ask Christians to witness, nor did he explicitly ask non-Christians to talk to the people he imagined were raising their hands, but the implication that he hoped such interactions would take place was clear, and he confirmed his desire to foster religious discussion in his interview with Advocate.com.
"I just wanted to give Christians a chance to talk about why they're Christians," he said, standing in the forward galley at the end of the flight as the final passengers departed. "I obviously couldn't go back there and address everyone directly, so I used the P.A.
"I just got back from a mission in Costa Rica," said Findiesen, a tall white man with neatly trimmed thick white hair and a mustache, both lightly peppered with black. "I felt that God was telling me to say something." He went on to explain that he felt God wanted him to witness to the passengers on his first flight upon returning to work for American Airlines after his mission. Despite this feeling, he said, he had decided not to say anything--but then he got another sign from God.
A minor problem with the plane's braking system had developed during final checks before takeoff, he said, a problem that might have grounded the aircraft, on which every seat was taken, in part because another American flight from Los Angeles to New York had been canceled that morning. But after a simple maneuver involving a power source, the braking problem inexplicably "disappeared," Findiesen said, and the plane was cleared for departure, and that's when he knew he had to use the P.A. system to talk about his Christian faith.
Flight attendants were inundated with questions and complaints, and the pilot came back on to the P.A. system a couple of hours into the flight to apologize: Not to the paying passengers, but to the flight attendants. "I'd just like to apologize to the flight attendants" for the remarks he had made before takeoff, he said over the P.A. He said he had heard the crew had "taken a little heat" for his witnessing and that he would be available at the end of the flight to answer any questions or hear any complaints himself.
He then apologized again to the flight attendants and ended his announcement.
Asked by Advocate.com whether he felt he should also have apologized to his passengers, Findiesen paused. "I felt bad for the flight attendants," he said. As for the passengers, he said that he felt making himself available to talk to them as they deplaned was sufficient.
Asked whether it was part of his job as an American Airlines pilot, trusted with the safety of hundreds of passengers, to witness about his faith from the cockpit, he said it was not. But, he asserted, "there's actually no regulation against doing what I did." He also reminded Steele that the plane was not moving at the time of his original announcement.
The case was handed over to the airline's personnel department for an investigation, American Airlines spokesman Tim Wagner said Sunday. "It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job," he said.
Because of privacy issues, there would likely never be any announcement about what kind of punishment or reprimand the pilot may face, Wagner said.
While Findiesen repeated to Steele that he was sorry his fellow crew members had taken heat for his comments, he expressed no regret for having made them and no regret for not having apologized to the American Airlines customers he was serving on the flight. But, he added, "I won't do it again, if you want to make a big deal of it."
FlyBoeingJets
YES, that's NICE
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nathan jesup
Member
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In response to Snakum:
There is no one we are indebted to more than the American soldier. This includes Buddhist American soldiers. Consider, though, that the soldier is fighting to represent America. And consider what principles America was founded on. The very fact that we are free to express our chosen religion is one of those principles.
You don’t often have that freedom in historically non-Christian countries.
Once again, I maintain that our Christian heritage has led to the prosperity and freedom (yes, even religious freedom) we enjoy today. Anyone is free to disagree. But I think it is evident that as we turn our backs on Christianity, we are beginning to see some disturbing trends in American culture. I think this country is currently running off momentum built up by years of sacrifice of people of all faiths (atheism is also a faith, by the way) who have fought and died for the principles of this country. I am afraid we may soon run out of that momentum. We have learned to become drains on society, not servants to society as we should be.
I don’t think anyone should be pressured to be Christian. I’m glad I live in a society that welcomes many faiths. I have many friends with various religious beliefs. I’m glad that I can debate these issues with them as friends. I am just tired of Christians being constantly vilified in society, when in actuality they are a large part of what got this country going in the first place.
I agree with Climbhappy. It is evident from this thread that the Gospel is foolishness to the World. The majority of reactions on this thread have caused me to increase my faith in the Gospel……Jesus accurately predicted that this is how the World would react to his message.
There is no one we are indebted to more than the American soldier. This includes Buddhist American soldiers. Consider, though, that the soldier is fighting to represent America. And consider what principles America was founded on. The very fact that we are free to express our chosen religion is one of those principles.
You don’t often have that freedom in historically non-Christian countries.
Once again, I maintain that our Christian heritage has led to the prosperity and freedom (yes, even religious freedom) we enjoy today. Anyone is free to disagree. But I think it is evident that as we turn our backs on Christianity, we are beginning to see some disturbing trends in American culture. I think this country is currently running off momentum built up by years of sacrifice of people of all faiths (atheism is also a faith, by the way) who have fought and died for the principles of this country. I am afraid we may soon run out of that momentum. We have learned to become drains on society, not servants to society as we should be.
I don’t think anyone should be pressured to be Christian. I’m glad I live in a society that welcomes many faiths. I have many friends with various religious beliefs. I’m glad that I can debate these issues with them as friends. I am just tired of Christians being constantly vilified in society, when in actuality they are a large part of what got this country going in the first place.
I agree with Climbhappy. It is evident from this thread that the Gospel is foolishness to the World. The majority of reactions on this thread have caused me to increase my faith in the Gospel……Jesus accurately predicted that this is how the World would react to his message.
Dizel8
Douglas metal
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Posts
- 2,817
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but like someone else pointed out, many crimes have been perpetrated in the name of Christianity.
To say, that Christianity is the reason and cause of freedom is rather silly. As a matter of fact, the US is founded on the principle of freedom, that also means fredoom in religion and from religion.
We live in a great society, that allows us choice. That is what we have fought for over the centuries.
It is great that we have that choice and I will gladly defend it!
"It is evident from this thread that the Gospel is foolishness to the World. The majority of reactions on this thread have caused me to increase my faith in the Gospel……Jesus accurately predicted that this is how the World would react to his message."
See, that is what worries me. "Gospel is foolishness to the world." That to me, once again implies the typical smugness of religous people. " In other words: I know something and you are a fool for not seeing it. Sorry, but that implies that anyone who does not believe in your view is wrong. Hate to tell you, but the Jews are Gods chosen people, at least that is what they say. Allah is the true God or is it Buddha or.......Considering that Christianity on a world stage is outnumbered, why on earth do you think you are right?
Perhaps the Vikings were right, believing in Valhalla and Odin. Of course not you say, those were heathens. Well, then the Egyptians. No, those were just silly beliefs. Right?
To say, that Christianity is the reason and cause of freedom is rather silly. As a matter of fact, the US is founded on the principle of freedom, that also means fredoom in religion and from religion.
We live in a great society, that allows us choice. That is what we have fought for over the centuries.
It is great that we have that choice and I will gladly defend it!
"It is evident from this thread that the Gospel is foolishness to the World. The majority of reactions on this thread have caused me to increase my faith in the Gospel……Jesus accurately predicted that this is how the World would react to his message."
See, that is what worries me. "Gospel is foolishness to the world." That to me, once again implies the typical smugness of religous people. " In other words: I know something and you are a fool for not seeing it. Sorry, but that implies that anyone who does not believe in your view is wrong. Hate to tell you, but the Jews are Gods chosen people, at least that is what they say. Allah is the true God or is it Buddha or.......Considering that Christianity on a world stage is outnumbered, why on earth do you think you are right?
Perhaps the Vikings were right, believing in Valhalla and Odin. Of course not you say, those were heathens. Well, then the Egyptians. No, those were just silly beliefs. Right?
Last edited:
Dizel8
Douglas metal
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Posts
- 2,817
"Freedom of thought and written and oral expression is historically a relatively recent development. For those who were the shepherds of Christian souls and whose function it was to get those souls to heaven, the idea that anyone could think and say or write what he/she wanted was an absurdity. Moreover, it was dangerous because it might lead others into error. As early as 170 CE, the Church promulgated a list of genuine books of the New Testament and excluded others from use in religious practice. In 405 CE, Pope Innocent I published a list of forbidden books, and at the end of that century issued a decree that has been called the first Index of Forbidden Books. It listed the genuine books of the Bible, the apocryphal books, and heretical books. Henceforth Popes and Councils periodically published lists of forbidden books."
Freedom of speech in Christianity? What a web we weave!
Freedom of speech in Christianity? What a web we weave!
nathan jesup
Member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 16
1)Christianity was practiced it it’s true form by early believers after Christ’s death. Christians so shocked the Romans at that time with their example of love and caring for the needy that it transformed the entire Roman Empire without the raising of a sword (except against Christians). This is what brought Christianity to power. Now, as we all know through the example of history, power corrupts. People began to be drawn to the Roman Catholic Church not to follow Christ but instead to seize positions of power. Most of the abuses cited by people against Christianity spring from this.
This also shows why I don’t believe there should be an established national religion of Christianity in the United States. It would attract and compel people to it for the wrong reasons and would eventually become corrupt. Christianity is a relationship, not an organization.
2)It continually astounds me that in the area of religion, people don’t think you should say someone else is wrong. We do this all day long in other areas of life. If I answer a technical question wrong at an airline interview, they will tell me I’m wrong and I may not get the job. That is because there is a right answer out there somewhere independent of whatever the interviewer or I may personally think. I can’t cry foul to the interviewer and say they are being “intolerant” because they told me I am wrong. You can say non-Christians are being intolerant toward Christians because they say our view of things is wrong. Or you could just give up altogether and say, “There is no objective Truth.” But is that statement you just made objectively true? This what philosophers call arguing in a circle. If there is to be any rational debate at all, it must be agreed upon that there is Truth out there and it is our job to find it, no matter whether we find it convenient to our current lifestyle or not. I’m glad relativistic thinking doesn’t yet reign in the fields of mathematics, chemistry, philosophy, etc., but it is sadly working it’s way there. I propose not forcing Christianity upon people, but simply opening it up to the realm of honest public debate. If it doesn’t hold up in that arena, I will be the first to dispose of it and move on.
If I was trapped on a deserted island with three other people and we all came up with different solutions to get off the island, I wouldn't resort to name-calling, hate, or persecution. Worst of all, I wouldn't stick my head in the sand and go about my life on the island as if a problem didn't exist. That gets us nowhere. Instead, I would consider all options, analyze the facts, and go with the best plan. I would also see it as my duty to convince others to follow this plan if I thought it would save their lives. I wouldn't force them to leave the island, but I would try to convince them that there is a plan that makes the most sense. This is not being intolerant toward the other plans (ie. religions) I rejected, and this is not being arrogant, this is simply what I define as sanity.
There is plenty of convincing, hard data out there that Christianity is true. It is NOT a blind faith. Read the book Mere Christianity and other works by C.S. Lewis. Read some of the intelligent design arguments by Phillip Johnson and Michael Behe. Read the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. Read the works of William Lane Craig and Ravi Zacharias. There are hundreds of books out there that present the case better than I ever could. But don’t just turn your head and pretend none of it exists. The stakes are too high. Remember that although it doesn't always seem like it, we are on a deserted island right now.
I’m sure many will be happy that this will be my last post on this thread. I've said enough.
This also shows why I don’t believe there should be an established national religion of Christianity in the United States. It would attract and compel people to it for the wrong reasons and would eventually become corrupt. Christianity is a relationship, not an organization.
2)It continually astounds me that in the area of religion, people don’t think you should say someone else is wrong. We do this all day long in other areas of life. If I answer a technical question wrong at an airline interview, they will tell me I’m wrong and I may not get the job. That is because there is a right answer out there somewhere independent of whatever the interviewer or I may personally think. I can’t cry foul to the interviewer and say they are being “intolerant” because they told me I am wrong. You can say non-Christians are being intolerant toward Christians because they say our view of things is wrong. Or you could just give up altogether and say, “There is no objective Truth.” But is that statement you just made objectively true? This what philosophers call arguing in a circle. If there is to be any rational debate at all, it must be agreed upon that there is Truth out there and it is our job to find it, no matter whether we find it convenient to our current lifestyle or not. I’m glad relativistic thinking doesn’t yet reign in the fields of mathematics, chemistry, philosophy, etc., but it is sadly working it’s way there. I propose not forcing Christianity upon people, but simply opening it up to the realm of honest public debate. If it doesn’t hold up in that arena, I will be the first to dispose of it and move on.
If I was trapped on a deserted island with three other people and we all came up with different solutions to get off the island, I wouldn't resort to name-calling, hate, or persecution. Worst of all, I wouldn't stick my head in the sand and go about my life on the island as if a problem didn't exist. That gets us nowhere. Instead, I would consider all options, analyze the facts, and go with the best plan. I would also see it as my duty to convince others to follow this plan if I thought it would save their lives. I wouldn't force them to leave the island, but I would try to convince them that there is a plan that makes the most sense. This is not being intolerant toward the other plans (ie. religions) I rejected, and this is not being arrogant, this is simply what I define as sanity.
There is plenty of convincing, hard data out there that Christianity is true. It is NOT a blind faith. Read the book Mere Christianity and other works by C.S. Lewis. Read some of the intelligent design arguments by Phillip Johnson and Michael Behe. Read the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. Read the works of William Lane Craig and Ravi Zacharias. There are hundreds of books out there that present the case better than I ever could. But don’t just turn your head and pretend none of it exists. The stakes are too high. Remember that although it doesn't always seem like it, we are on a deserted island right now.
I’m sure many will be happy that this will be my last post on this thread. I've said enough.
climbhappy
ex pat
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Diszel8,
Those who are God's elect, his remnant ,are spiritual jews. we died with him at the cross, live in and through him now and will live eternally with him.
You may have never heard of the law of "Non contradiction" You see there is only one true, almighty,all powerful, omnipotent God.
He has been referred to as Jehovah, Yahweh, I am, the creator, among others. The Bible has been recorded and handed down through the ages. Its word are God inspired and every word is sacred, even St Pauls' who had written 8 books. or letters.
Due to sin we are all separated from God. That is why he sent his son, Jesus Christ. It was because of the 'law" that sin became known. since we can't keep the law, Jesus, gives us a free pass into heaven. it's really that simple. He says come as you are. we cant' be perfect, we'll never measure up.
Having said that, there's only two choices, (back to the law of noncontradiction) heaven or hell. surely, you would prefer joy and peace over torment.
Finally, our forefathers worshipped God almighty and his son. This is recorded and make no mistake, our founding fathers read, studied and carried their bibles with them. Thomas jefferson was a devout christian man. Some of you guys have been sold a bad bill of goods.
Trying to justify 25 different world religions is weak as an argument and moreover denies the exitstment of one truth. that's it one truth. We have in the bible an OPEN BOOK TEST ON LIVING THIS LIFE ON EARTH. HOW COULD YOU AS PILOTS, WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THIS SAME GOUGE ON AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS SCREW THIS ONE UP.
Those who are God's elect, his remnant ,are spiritual jews. we died with him at the cross, live in and through him now and will live eternally with him.
You may have never heard of the law of "Non contradiction" You see there is only one true, almighty,all powerful, omnipotent God.
He has been referred to as Jehovah, Yahweh, I am, the creator, among others. The Bible has been recorded and handed down through the ages. Its word are God inspired and every word is sacred, even St Pauls' who had written 8 books. or letters.
Due to sin we are all separated from God. That is why he sent his son, Jesus Christ. It was because of the 'law" that sin became known. since we can't keep the law, Jesus, gives us a free pass into heaven. it's really that simple. He says come as you are. we cant' be perfect, we'll never measure up.
Having said that, there's only two choices, (back to the law of noncontradiction) heaven or hell. surely, you would prefer joy and peace over torment.
Finally, our forefathers worshipped God almighty and his son. This is recorded and make no mistake, our founding fathers read, studied and carried their bibles with them. Thomas jefferson was a devout christian man. Some of you guys have been sold a bad bill of goods.
Trying to justify 25 different world religions is weak as an argument and moreover denies the exitstment of one truth. that's it one truth. We have in the bible an OPEN BOOK TEST ON LIVING THIS LIFE ON EARTH. HOW COULD YOU AS PILOTS, WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THIS SAME GOUGE ON AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS SCREW THIS ONE UP.
Nathan Jesup..
Thanks for your posts. I wish I could express my thoughts half as well as you have done.
As for some of you who disagree, why get so angry? You have your beliefs, and I am sure you think they are correct.
Why can't Christians have their beliefs and also think they are correct without being "persecuted" ?
Thanks for your posts. I wish I could express my thoughts half as well as you have done.
As for some of you who disagree, why get so angry? You have your beliefs, and I am sure you think they are correct.
Why can't Christians have their beliefs and also think they are correct without being "persecuted" ?
Dizel8
Douglas metal
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Climbhappy,
So are you saying, that the God the Christians and you believe in, is the one true God, that there can be no other?
If that is the case, then I guess the people who hold other faiths are wrong?
As far as the fathers of this country is concerned, yes, I have no doubt they were religous. They were sadly not against slavery, yet in the eyes of God, all man are created equal. They did not allow women to vote, etc. etc. I am not sure God would have agreed with that.
Mandown,
"Why can't Christians have their beliefs and also think they are correct without being "persecuted?"
They certainly can, that is one of the freedom we have in this country. However, I am sure religous people, whatever their faith is, ask that same question.
---
Religion is an interesting subject, it has been discussed for eons and will continue to be discussed for eons to come. Ultimately, it comes down to a leap of faith, that one takes based on the evidence presented.
So are you saying, that the God the Christians and you believe in, is the one true God, that there can be no other?
If that is the case, then I guess the people who hold other faiths are wrong?
As far as the fathers of this country is concerned, yes, I have no doubt they were religous. They were sadly not against slavery, yet in the eyes of God, all man are created equal. They did not allow women to vote, etc. etc. I am not sure God would have agreed with that.
Mandown,
"Why can't Christians have their beliefs and also think they are correct without being "persecuted?"
They certainly can, that is one of the freedom we have in this country. However, I am sure religous people, whatever their faith is, ask that same question.
---
Religion is an interesting subject, it has been discussed for eons and will continue to be discussed for eons to come. Ultimately, it comes down to a leap of faith, that one takes based on the evidence presented.
Last edited:
pipejockey
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Snakum
How's your marmott?
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BECOME corrupt?!?
I almost pooped my pants on this one.
And Nathan ... maybe you should read Barbara Therin, JD Crosson, and many other biblical scholars - some priests - who will argue with your experts that the bible is literally true.
If you want to believe such nonsense ... hey, more power to you, bro. But don't give us that holier-than-thou, 'we're better cause God's on our side crap'. Your silly superstitions will fade away just like those of ancient Greece, Rome, Britain, etc.
Just more garbage to rise above as we evolve into more intelligent, logical, and TOLERANT human beings.
Minh
TWA Dude
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nathan jesup said:
Nathan:
Even as a non-Christian I was enjoying your post up untill I got to this part. There's a long-running thread on the General Board where I chimed in briefly on this subject. My main point is that just because it was written in a book considered holy doesn't mean it constitutes proof. I shan't argue that any religion out there is untrue because I'm in no place to judge. It very much does take blind faith because to belong to one religion you must ignore books others consider sacred. Remember that Muslims, Hindus and Buddists greatly outnumber Christians on this planet. If one religion were really "true" one would think word would've gotten around by now. In my belief there is one G-D and He is worshipped in many different ways through many different religions.
And BTW I know I'm not going to Hell because there is no such place. If you disagree than prove me wrong with evidence, not words.
Dude
WhiteCloud
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Whitestoneclimb
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I realize that this subject is a very controversial one, but I am very disappointed at the level to which some people have stooped. I am a Christian and I'm not ashamed to say that. Now before everyone starts to bash me, I'd like to say this: I will agree that this Captain was not exercising his best judgement making the announcement the way he did. That being said, I don't feel he was "pushing his religion" or "cramming it down someone's throat". A lot of people on this board have been saying that this guy is a "freak" or a "fanatic". If you look at the news story/transcript, he asked the Christians to identify themselves, NOT the non-Christians. Then he SUGGESTED that the non-Christians to talk with the Christians. Now, the Christians should not have felt threatened because its not only a priviledge, but also a biblical principle to share the Gospel if presented the opportunity. The non-Christians should not have felt threatened because they didn't HAVE to do anything. If they wanted to know more, they could ask. If they weren't interested, they could just go back to their USAToday.
Great posts Jessup and Climbhappy!
He is risen
Great posts Jessup and Climbhappy!
He is risen
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