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More unprofessional AMR pilot behavior

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Where did you get that from?

G4G5,


Where did you hear that the incident happened during a pax rev flight? The incident happened during a reposition flight and obviously that is part of the reason the pilots got their jobs back. The public was not involded in the incident. It was a prank that went bad. However, I don't think the pilot should loose his job, no way.
Asking the passsengers if they are Christians is like asking the pax if they are strippers, gay, homosexuals, democrats, sinners, republicans, etc... Has only the potential of humiliating or embarassing paying customers.

"Hello folks, Captain speaking, any atheists onboard?. If so, please use the next 3 hours to convince all the religious freaks that God does not exits. Thank you."
 
Where did you hear that the incident happened during a pax rev flight? The incident happened during a reposition flight and obviously that is part of the reason the pilots got their jobs back. The public was not involded in the incident. It was a prank that went bad. However, I don't think the pilot should loose his job, no way.
It was a revenue flight. FO spilled his soup in his lap. Then took pants off to dry. FA calls up front and they joked that they "were naked up here". She takes napkins to cockpit and grabs her phone with camera. Takes picture and a check airman ends up seeing it. A Chief pilot gets involved and everything got distorted.
 
I stand corrected

TR4A,
What I heard was that it was non-rev and they did it as a prank. The FAs boyfriend saw the picture, got pissed and called to complain. Obviously wrong info but it explained why they got it back. Oh well. Thank you for the clarification. In any case, I am glad they got their jobs.
 
Wow - you guys have really enlightened me!

I'm just beginning to savor my newly-discovered ability to instill fear in the "unbeliever."

HAH!


I think I'm gonna bring back Krishna -style evangelizing in the airport - I hav an I.D., so I can get in. Giving away flowers or little mints with bible verses on them.



:rolleyes: :p
 
As long as I can go "airplane" on you, you can give me mints. A nice box of Altoids would be appreciated.
 
What I heard was that it was non-rev and they did it as a prank. The FAs boyfriend saw the picture, got pissed and called to complain. Obviously wrong info but it explained why they got it back. Oh well. Thank you for the clarification. In any case, I am glad they got their jobs.
That was one of the versions out there. Even management was saying different things. Part of the agreement was no disclosure.
The version I told was probably the closest to the truth.
 
I do not see how any one was forced to raise their hand. I do not see how this is so terrible; that the captain should be punished. Why can't someone bring up a topic and let the "audience" determine if they will participate in the converstion.

I agree, it might not be the thing to do, make such an announcement on every flight, but why not. To simply bring it up should not hurt anyone's feelings. What if the topic was not religion but something different?

"How many of you are one your way to a much anticipated vacation? Please raise your hand."

That is a personal question; I fell more so than religion. I believe if you are a person of faith or a religions person, that is a personal choice, but if you really believe in your decision it is not something you hide from people.

The question was asked, "would it be ok for a Muslim captain to ask every non-Muslim on board to read the Quran?" Sure. That is what America is about, freedom of religion and speech. Why take offense to that? It is just someone trying to help others in his / her own way. I would not be offended, but probably would not take him / her up on the suggestion.

It is pushing your religion when you do not respect the request from an individual or group that you are adressing to stop. Otherwise you are conversing / witnessing.

Why will the government / corporate america allow telemarketers to call my phone daily (usually the same places calling) even when I ask them to stop? That is more on the line of pushing and not "witnessing".

Just because the topic is religion it is taboo today and that is a bad thing.

Another thought on why this senior captain did this...

Not just because he is on his way out soon (speculation)...

Not just to get another 2 months off for some more witnessing...

But we are already three pages into the discusion, and this is a pretty isolated section of the country, or even the world.

Now his witnessing to a couple hundred pax has spread to witnessing to the country.

:) :)

mike
 
steveg said:
He's an aa pilot. You seem to have forgotten they are one step below God. They are absolutely right in everything they do. It certainly isn't our position to question the almighty apa tools.

Sarcasm intended.

hey steve, now don't lump all the AA guys together! don't forget there are 2,301 TWA good guys on the list at AA......just ask any AA guy if he is from TWA! you will piss off the SNB's and/or make a TWA smile! sadly there are only only a few hundred TWA guys not furloughed. ;)
 
I think the strong feelings this thread has obviously uncovered is the most interesting thing here. I am a Christian. I also think I am fairly intellectual. This seems to be a contradiction for many of you. There is a mindset in our current society that Christians are foolish, unreasonable, superstitious, idiots. This mindset is constantly reinforced by television, movies, books, and, of course, the media. Most people just start parroting these same ideas they have "learned" from pop culture whenever they get into a debate with a Christian. It is my belief that an uneducated person will often be a Christian. A moderately educated person usually becomes a non-Christian, because they have been shown the problems with it. The person that pursues the issue farther and becomes highly educated often comes full circle and becomes a Christian again. The key is pursuing Truth wherever it leads you. If you study history, archaelogy, evolution, biology, astronomy, etc. with an open mind, there is plenty of hard evidence that will convince you Christianity is true, and exclusively true. Our pluralistic society doesn't like it, but Truth is exclusive by nature. So yes, other religions are wrong, not totally wrong, but wrong.

There is much more I would like to say, but this would go on forever. However, let me end with this thought. This was a calm, non-imflammatory response I gave here. If some of you find yourself still getting angered over my "bible-thumping", perhaps you need to take a genuine look at yourself. This whole thread seems to exemplify what Jesus meant when he said the World would hate him and his message because darkness hates being exposed by the light.
 
Funny how the rabid Christians on this thread see nothing wrong with what this peabrain did.

However... How quickly they would condemn him if he was a Jew! Or a Muslim! Or a Buddhist!

As previously quoted...

"The Inquisition... Here we go...
The Inquisition... What a show..."

Etc.

Religious nuts make me ill, especially if they are Christian and attempt to hide behind the "I'm in the religious majority of my country and any foolishness I perpetrate on my customers is A-O-K, and God Bless you anyways."

You are scarier to me than the "average" Muslim. There are many more of you in this country and almost none of you recognize how dangerous you are to independent, rational thought... Certainly no more so than the "terrorists", and your kind can influence my Congressman. You are as frightening to me as a "dirty bomb".

"Witnessing", my a$$.
 
>>>If some of you find yourself still getting angered over my "bible-thumping", perhaps you need to take a genuine look at yourself. <<<

Yes, anyone who disagrees with you is delusional and needs an introspective look into their own tortured soul.

:rolleyes:

Thank you. Thank you SO much for making my own point for me.
 
They opened The Daily Show with a bit on this clod last night. Had me chuckling with the humor and the truth of it all. As Jon Stewart said:

"I don't see what the big deal is about all this American Airlines
Captain. I mean a religious zealot at the controls of a widebody
jet. What's the problem with that!?!"

Must of really have sucked to be the FO in this situation. I bet this captain gets bid around an aweful lot.
 
Inquisition, Crusades, etc.... Yes, people who have gone by the name "Christian" have done some horrible things in history. This is not only true, but also well-advertised today. Have athiests also done some horrible things in history? At the core of Communism is athiesm, how many deaths has it caused this century?

What positive impacts has Christianity made on history? The very fact we can freely post our thoughts on this board is due to Christianity. Nearly all the founding fathers of this country were Christian. Our prosperity and freedom is the result of the Christian worldview and philosophy practically applied to the formation of a government. We take this so much for granted that we don't even acknowledge it anymore.

Just a few examples:
1)It was predominantly Christians who brought an end to slavery in the 1800's (William Wilberforce). 2)Women's rights were unknown in Roman times until Christianity spread. 3)Consider your local hospital, it probably has a Catholic name, doesn't it? 4)Many major universities for learning began as Christian institutions (Harvard, etc.). 5)Billions of dollars are pumped every year from American churches to neady across the world. 6)The morals that Christians espouse make a free-market economy run smoothly, without Enron-type scandals.

I would list more, but I need to make my commute here in a few minutes.

I know you will disagree and say that all this is just my slant on things. But I ask you to take an honest look at non "revisionist" history for yourself

In addition, to equate the Muslim belief with the Christian belief is to have a poor understanding of either religion. Compare the historically Muslim countries with the historically Christian countries (USA, etc.) and you will see a huge difference.

As for this American pilot. I think he was wrong to do what he did in the manner he did it.
 
IMHO, I think that the bible is a great story with lots of morals, but it is story writen by man to control man.

Sadly, science and religion is non compatible. The more I looked into the Bible, the sillier it became. That does not mean, that religion is not great thing for many, but it never did alter much for me.

Flame away!
 
The very fact we can freely post our thoughts on this board is due to Christianity.
Uh ... nooooo .....

The reason you can freely post your thoughts on this board is that many of us here have walked fences in Europe, manned towers in South Korea, dodged bullets in Central America, and dropped bombs in the Middle East.

I did my part (including that 'bullet-dodging' thing) ... and I'm a Buddhist.

What have you done, Mr. Christian?

Minh
 
nathan jesup said:
At the core of Communism is athiesm, how many deaths has it caused this century?


The US felt threatened enough by communism to prop up or install anti-communist dictators around the globe for decades. This resulted directly in the death of millions of people. Communism was more of a threat to US corporate interests than it was to us as citizens. Over 4 million Vietnamese, Cambodian, and Laotians were killed during the Vietnam conflict. Since those folks don't look like us or practice Christianity in large number we tend to gloss over the fact that 4 million of them perished. What a tragedy.
Look at our actions in places like Chile, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama, Iran, Iraq, and Cuba. Then tell me how many of those deaths can be blamed on atheists. Of course you could make a case that we are hardly a Christian nation. After all what Christian nation would go into a foreign country, topple a democratically elected leader, and install a dictator friendly to US corporate interests? We have a lot of blood on our hands. To blame these deaths on atheism is hogwash IMHO.
 
I find it amusing that this aa pilot is so worried about his immortal soul now. I don't recall him being quite so outspoken when he and his fellow apa thugs were stealing the TWA pilots careers and livelihood. Seems a tad bit hypocritical to me.

I believe Hades has a special place reserved for these guys.

Burn baby burn!!
 
vc10 said:
New York-(AP) -- American Airlines says a pilot flying from Los Angeles to New York asked non-Christians passengers to talk to Christians about their faith during the flight.

OK. One of my favorite albums is Randy Newman's Faust.
Newman's little updated operetta of the eighteenth century German poet Goethe's play, is typically irreverent, with bitingly raunchy humor and great music. Randy Newman fans will not be disappointed but beware: if you're at all sensitive to blasphemy and fowl language, you won't like it. Enjoy!

Principal Characters

God - James Taylor
Satan - Randy Newman
Faust - Don Henley (offered knowledge by the Devil)
Margaret - Linda Ronstadt (young woman who falls in love with Faust)
Martha - Bonnie Raitt (Margaret's neighbor and friend)
Angel Rick - Elton John

Overveiw of Goethe's play

In heaven, while angels sang praises to God and his grand creations, heaven and earth, Mephistopheles entered and began to complain about the lot of man on earth. The sinister Mephisto chided God for having given man just enough reason to make him "more brutish than any brute." God asked his adversary if there wasn't anything worthwhile about His creation. "No, Lord," answered Mephistopheles. "I find it still a sorry sight." They argued for some time, until they finally agreed to a wager: with God's permission, Mephisto would attempt to lure the soul of a certain scholar-alchemist named Faust ("who serves you most peculiarly") down with him to hell; God maintained that Faust would and could be saved, despite his proud reliance on reason and sorcery rather than faith...

Are you going to eat those peanuts?
 
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on point....

I think the Captain, as Pilot in command of that aircraft, had the authority to do it.

That authority,no matter what you may think of it, was and is still his. Working in a fallen world, we subject to the rules of this world. Whatever the company decides, he must live with it.

I've never read a thread here that incited so many passionate responses. and you know what, I don't condemn any of you. to see the passion is remarkable.

My Bible declares(JOHN 10:25-29) that even if you wanted to come to the son,(the only way to heaven) then the Father must first enable you to.

so, with all the bickering , it's really a moot point.
 
I have only one comment for this thread:

WHERE IS TIMEBUILDER? We're on page four already?
 
What point is moot? That the Captain made an *ss of himself in public? That's not moot, that's critical.

If you want to proselytize me, don't do it over the airplane PA system. Do it on my front steps so I can freely slam my door in your earnest face.
 
Re: Re: Unsolicited religion has no place

TWA Dude said:
Personally I'm pessimistic about Israel's overall future. The Arab enemies of Israel are numerous, patient and hate-filled. Plus there's the "demographic bomb" of the Israeli Arab population growing far faster than the Jews. Few nations on this planet would protest if Israel became an Arab Palestine and the Jews were evicted because they think world terrorism would decrease as a result. That pesky double-standard again.

Dude

Since this thread has gone terribly out of control, I will offer my own opinion.

Those JackA$$ Arabs have no idea that America and Israel are acting with RESTRAINT. Why they don't know, I'm not sure. Maybe they don't understand our culture, maybe they are (collectively) ignorant of the fact. Maybe they do know and practice terrorism thinking the gloves will never come off because we are weak and stupid. The only way to deal with this systemic terrorism is to retaliate in kind with overwhelming force. I hope enough of us realize this "war on terrorism" is bigger than the cold war. It is a war waged by a core group of muslims vs. everyone else. But it's not about religion, just old fashion power and influence. Muslim teachings are but a tool of these meglomaniacs and murderers. The separation of church and state scares them. It would take away their power and they want power over YOU and ME. They don't want people to have freedom. You either become a practicing Muslim or you are punished. Christians, however obnoxious you think they are, do want people to be free to believe or not believe. I sincerely feel for the average Arab/muslim that does not support the extremist leaders but have no choice but to fall in line. They deserve freedom too.

If the restraint being shown the Arab world is ever lifted they will know bloodshed not seen since WWII. This prospect does not make me happy but sad and fearful of what may yet come. But I welcome it over a slow and steady muslim takeover of the world. I pray we have the fortitude to fight off this threat.

Freedom isn't free, but security without freedom is not for me.

You decide what you want to stand for.
 
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machpi...the moot of it is this

as i stated, the point is moot if you consider, the bickering mostly from those who were outraged due to mention of someone trying to encourage sharing the Gospel message. The message is a good one in my view.

It shouldn't bother someone who has no use for the message.

that's really the point. I think back to ty webb's remarks about shoving a fist down his throat. that's a comical violent response.

It indicates something is unsettled in that person. If you're happy and content with life, this captain's actions should even bother you. One might say, I wouldn't have done that, but to villify him? C'mon....

Paul said in Corinthians that the natural man cannot know and percieve the things of God because they are foolishness to him.

that's really what we have here. the scoffers versus those who in the spirit really know the only,living and true Almighty God. Moses said who shall I say that sent me? He said, "I Am"

The witnesses are called to share the message. It does require some tact though. REPEAT, IT DOES REQUIRE SOME TACT. CAN WE AGREE THAT MAYBE MORE TACT SHOULD HAVE BEEN USED.

To the scoffers, if you don't want or don't care about the message, then fine. Take care, and good Luck to you.

In sum, machpi, the bickering doesn't matter since to alot of you it is "foolishness" as St. Paul the apostle wrote anyway.WHY GET STEAMED ABOUT IT? THAT'S THE STRANGE PART
 
"Good morning ladies and gentlemen, this is Captain Abu. I'd like to welcome everyone a board our flight to New York. We're currently number four for takeoff. I'd like any practicing Muslims on board to rasie ther hands. Go ahead, don't be afraid. There. Now, we've got a long flight ahead of us. If any of you have questions about Islam, please don't hesitate to ask some of our Muslim passengers about it. Use your time wisely. And thanks for flying American."
 
This guy needs his head examined!!!!!



Exclusive: Interview with American Airlines pilot who told Christian passengers to raise their hands
"If you have five minutes, I'll tell you why I did it," American Airlines captain Roger Findiesen told Advocate.com as Flight 34 had all but emptied out after its arrival at New York's JFK Airport, on Friday, February 6. "I felt that God was telling me to say something [to the passengers]."

Findiesen is the pilot about whom CNN and other media have been reporting since Saturday; even The New York Times ran a story about how an American Airlines pilot, using the P.A. system before takeoff from Los Angeles International Airport on Friday morning, requested that Christians on his flight identify themselves.

As the plane sat immobile, waiting for its slot to take off, Findiesen asked Christian passengers to raise their hands and said that "everyone else on board" might want to "make good use" of the flight. The implication was that non-Christians should learn about the Christian faith from the passengers who had raised their hands.

Passenger Amanda Nelligan told WCBS-TV of New York that the pilot called non-Christians "crazy" and that his comments "felt like a threat," although other passengers remember the word "crazy" having been playfully applied to the Christians on board. Nelligan said she and several others aboard were so worried they tried to call relatives on their cell phones before flight attendants assured them they were safe and that people on the ground had been notified about the pilot's comments.

Findiesen's identity has been shielded by American Airlines, but the pilot spoke candidly to The Advocate and Advocate.com editor in chief Bruce C. Steele, who identified himself to the captain at the end of the flight. Findiesen then confirmed to Steele his identity, the spelling of his name, and that his home base is Washington, D.C. At no time did Findiesen mention homosexuality or say anything antigay. During the three- to five-minute interview, he was positive and upbeat and interested only in explaining the importance of witnessing about his faith.

What Findiesen said, as best the stunned passengers could recall once they were able to move about the cabin and confer after Flight 34 took off, was this: "I just got back from a mission," Findiesen said after making a routine announcement about the plane being second in line for takeoff. "You know, they say about half of Americans are Christians. I'd just like the Christians on board to raise their hands."

In the suddenly hushed coach section of the airplane, a few nervous passengers raised one hand, most no higher than shoulder level, none above tops of the seats.

"I want everyone else on board to look around at how crazy these people are," the pilot continued, with an intonation suggesting he was using the word "crazy" in a positive, even admiring manner. Evidently addressing the non-Christian passengers, he concluded that they could "make good use of [the flight], or you can read your paper and watch the movie."

The movie on the flight was Under the Tuscan Sun, with Diane Lane and Sandra Oh as Lane's lesbian best friend.

Findiesen did not directly ask Christians to witness, nor did he explicitly ask non-Christians to talk to the people he imagined were raising their hands, but the implication that he hoped such interactions would take place was clear, and he confirmed his desire to foster religious discussion in his interview with Advocate.com.

"I just wanted to give Christians a chance to talk about why they're Christians," he said, standing in the forward galley at the end of the flight as the final passengers departed. "I obviously couldn't go back there and address everyone directly, so I used the P.A.

"I just got back from a mission in Costa Rica," said Findiesen, a tall white man with neatly trimmed thick white hair and a mustache, both lightly peppered with black. "I felt that God was telling me to say something." He went on to explain that he felt God wanted him to witness to the passengers on his first flight upon returning to work for American Airlines after his mission. Despite this feeling, he said, he had decided not to say anything--but then he got another sign from God.

A minor problem with the plane's braking system had developed during final checks before takeoff, he said, a problem that might have grounded the aircraft, on which every seat was taken, in part because another American flight from Los Angeles to New York had been canceled that morning. But after a simple maneuver involving a power source, the braking problem inexplicably "disappeared," Findiesen said, and the plane was cleared for departure, and that's when he knew he had to use the P.A. system to talk about his Christian faith.

Flight attendants were inundated with questions and complaints, and the pilot came back on to the P.A. system a couple of hours into the flight to apologize: Not to the paying passengers, but to the flight attendants. "I'd just like to apologize to the flight attendants" for the remarks he had made before takeoff, he said over the P.A. He said he had heard the crew had "taken a little heat" for his witnessing and that he would be available at the end of the flight to answer any questions or hear any complaints himself.

He then apologized again to the flight attendants and ended his announcement.

Asked by Advocate.com whether he felt he should also have apologized to his passengers, Findiesen paused. "I felt bad for the flight attendants," he said. As for the passengers, he said that he felt making himself available to talk to them as they deplaned was sufficient.

Asked whether it was part of his job as an American Airlines pilot, trusted with the safety of hundreds of passengers, to witness about his faith from the cockpit, he said it was not. But, he asserted, "there's actually no regulation against doing what I did." He also reminded Steele that the plane was not moving at the time of his original announcement.

The case was handed over to the airline's personnel department for an investigation, American Airlines spokesman Tim Wagner said Sunday. "It falls along the lines of a personal level of sharing that may not be appropriate for one of our employees to do while on the job," he said.

Because of privacy issues, there would likely never be any announcement about what kind of punishment or reprimand the pilot may face, Wagner said.

While Findiesen repeated to Steele that he was sorry his fellow crew members had taken heat for his comments, he expressed no regret for having made them and no regret for not having apologized to the American Airlines customers he was serving on the flight. But, he added, "I won't do it again, if you want to make a big deal of it."
 
Yes, Yes, Yes!! I think we all agree he should be reprimanded and "examined" before returning to work. Regardless of whether we agree with or dislike his faith. Our passengers rely on the perception that we are logical and dispassionate in the discharge of our duties.
 
In response to Snakum:

There is no one we are indebted to more than the American soldier. This includes Buddhist American soldiers. Consider, though, that the soldier is fighting to represent America. And consider what principles America was founded on. The very fact that we are free to express our chosen religion is one of those principles.

You don’t often have that freedom in historically non-Christian countries.

Once again, I maintain that our Christian heritage has led to the prosperity and freedom (yes, even religious freedom) we enjoy today. Anyone is free to disagree. But I think it is evident that as we turn our backs on Christianity, we are beginning to see some disturbing trends in American culture. I think this country is currently running off momentum built up by years of sacrifice of people of all faiths (atheism is also a faith, by the way) who have fought and died for the principles of this country. I am afraid we may soon run out of that momentum. We have learned to become drains on society, not servants to society as we should be.

I don’t think anyone should be pressured to be Christian. I’m glad I live in a society that welcomes many faiths. I have many friends with various religious beliefs. I’m glad that I can debate these issues with them as friends. I am just tired of Christians being constantly vilified in society, when in actuality they are a large part of what got this country going in the first place.

I agree with Climbhappy. It is evident from this thread that the Gospel is foolishness to the World. The majority of reactions on this thread have caused me to increase my faith in the Gospel……Jesus accurately predicted that this is how the World would react to his message.
 
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but like someone else pointed out, many crimes have been perpetrated in the name of Christianity.

To say, that Christianity is the reason and cause of freedom is rather silly. As a matter of fact, the US is founded on the principle of freedom, that also means fredoom in religion and from religion.

We live in a great society, that allows us choice. That is what we have fought for over the centuries.

It is great that we have that choice and I will gladly defend it!

"It is evident from this thread that the Gospel is foolishness to the World. The majority of reactions on this thread have caused me to increase my faith in the Gospel……Jesus accurately predicted that this is how the World would react to his message."

See, that is what worries me. "Gospel is foolishness to the world." That to me, once again implies the typical smugness of religous people. " In other words: I know something and you are a fool for not seeing it. Sorry, but that implies that anyone who does not believe in your view is wrong. Hate to tell you, but the Jews are Gods chosen people, at least that is what they say. Allah is the true God or is it Buddha or.......Considering that Christianity on a world stage is outnumbered, why on earth do you think you are right?

Perhaps the Vikings were right, believing in Valhalla and Odin. Of course not you say, those were heathens. Well, then the Egyptians. No, those were just silly beliefs. Right?
 
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"Freedom of thought and written and oral expression is historically a relatively recent development. For those who were the shepherds of Christian souls and whose function it was to get those souls to heaven, the idea that anyone could think and say or write what he/she wanted was an absurdity. Moreover, it was dangerous because it might lead others into error. As early as 170 CE, the Church promulgated a list of genuine books of the New Testament and excluded others from use in religious practice. In 405 CE, Pope Innocent I published a list of forbidden books, and at the end of that century issued a decree that has been called the first Index of Forbidden Books. It listed the genuine books of the Bible, the apocryphal books, and heretical books. Henceforth Popes and Councils periodically published lists of forbidden books."

Freedom of speech in Christianity? What a web we weave!
 

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