More unprofessional AMR pilot behavior

[nathan jesup]

1)Christianity was practiced it it’s true form by early believers after Christ’s death. Christians so shocked the Romans at that time with their example of love and caring for the needy that it transformed the entire Roman Empire without the raising of a sword (except against Christians). This is what brought Christianity to power. Now, as we all know through the example of history, power corrupts. People began to be drawn to the Roman Catholic Church not to follow Christ but instead to seize positions of power. Most of the abuses cited by people against Christianity spring from this.

This also shows why I don’t believe there should be an established national religion of Christianity in the United States. It would attract and compel people to it for the wrong reasons and would eventually become corrupt. Christianity is a relationship, not an organization.

2)It continually astounds me that in the area of religion, people don’t think you should say someone else is wrong. We do this all day long in other areas of life. If I answer a technical question wrong at an airline interview, they will tell me I’m wrong and I may not get the job. That is because there is a right answer out there somewhere independent of whatever the interviewer or I may personally think. I can’t cry foul to the interviewer and say they are being “intolerant” because they told me I am wrong. You can say non-Christians are being intolerant toward Christians because they say our view of things is wrong. Or you could just give up altogether and say, “There is no objective Truth.” But is that statement you just made objectively true? This what philosophers call arguing in a circle. If there is to be any rational debate at all, it must be agreed upon that there is Truth out there and it is our job to find it, no matter whether we find it convenient to our current lifestyle or not. I’m glad relativistic thinking doesn’t yet reign in the fields of mathematics, chemistry, philosophy, etc., but it is sadly working it’s way there. I propose not forcing Christianity upon people, but simply opening it up to the realm of honest public debate. If it doesn’t hold up in that arena, I will be the first to dispose of it and move on.

If I was trapped on a deserted island with three other people and we all came up with different solutions to get off the island, I wouldn't resort to name-calling, hate, or persecution. Worst of all, I wouldn't stick my head in the sand and go about my life on the island as if a problem didn't exist. That gets us nowhere. Instead, I would consider all options, analyze the facts, and go with the best plan. I would also see it as my duty to convince others to follow this plan if I thought it would save their lives. I wouldn't force them to leave the island, but I would try to convince them that there is a plan that makes the most sense. This is not being intolerant toward the other plans (ie. religions) I rejected, and this is not being arrogant, this is simply what I define as sanity.

There is plenty of convincing, hard data out there that Christianity is true. It is NOT a blind faith. Read the book Mere Christianity and other works by C.S. Lewis. Read some of the intelligent design arguments by Phillip Johnson and Michael Behe. Read the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. Read the works of William Lane Craig and Ravi Zacharias. There are hundreds of books out there that present the case better than I ever could. But don’t just turn your head and pretend none of it exists. The stakes are too high. Remember that although it doesn't always seem like it, we are on a deserted island right now.

I’m sure many will be happy that this will be my last post on this thread. I've said enough.

 

[doh]

pylut,
Amen to you my brother, there is a special place in hell for them!

 

[climbhappy]

Diszel8,

Those who are God's elect, his remnant ,are spiritual jews. we died with him at the cross, live in and through him now and will live eternally with him.

You may have never heard of the law of "Non contradiction" You see there is only one true, almighty,all powerful, omnipotent God.
He has been referred to as Jehovah, Yahweh, I am, the creator, among others. The Bible has been recorded and handed down through the ages. Its word are God inspired and every word is sacred, even St Pauls' who had written 8 books. or letters.

Due to sin we are all separated from God. That is why he sent his son, Jesus Christ. It was because of the 'law" that sin became known. since we can't keep the law, Jesus, gives us a free pass into heaven. it's really that simple. He says come as you are. we cant' be perfect, we'll never measure up.

Having said that, there's only two choices, (back to the law of noncontradiction) heaven or hell. surely, you would prefer joy and peace over torment.

Finally, our forefathers worshipped God almighty and his son. This is recorded and make no mistake, our founding fathers read, studied and carried their bibles with them. Thomas jefferson was a devout christian man. Some of you guys have been sold a bad bill of goods.

Trying to justify 25 different world religions is weak as an argument and moreover denies the exitstment of one truth. that's it one truth. We have in the bible an OPEN BOOK TEST ON LIVING THIS LIFE ON EARTH. HOW COULD YOU AS PILOTS, WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THIS SAME GOUGE ON AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS SCREW THIS ONE UP.

 

[man-down]

Nathan Jesup..

Thanks for your posts. I wish I could express my thoughts half as well as you have done.

As for some of you who disagree, why get so angry? You have your beliefs, and I am sure you think they are correct.

Why can't Christians have their beliefs and also think they are correct without being "persecuted" ?

 

[Dizel8]

Climbhappy,

So are you saying, that the God the Christians and you believe in, is the one true God, that there can be no other?

If that is the case, then I guess the people who hold other faiths are wrong?

As far as the fathers of this country is concerned, yes, I have no doubt they were religous. They were sadly not against slavery, yet in the eyes of God, all man are created equal. They did not allow women to vote, etc. etc. I am not sure God would have agreed with that.

Mandown,

"Why can't Christians have their beliefs and also think they are correct without being "persecuted?"

They certainly can, that is one of the freedom we have in this country. However, I am sure religous people, whatever their faith is, ask that same question.
---

Religion is an interesting subject, it has been discussed for eons and will continue to be discussed for eons to come. Ultimately, it comes down to a leap of faith, that one takes based on the evidence presented.

 

[pipejockey]

Re: Re: Re: Unsolicited religion has no place

Those JackA$$ Arabs have no idea that America and Israel are acting with RESTRAINT. Muslim teachings are but a tool of these meglomaniacs and murderers. either become a practicing Muslim or you are punished. Christians, however obnoxious you think they are, do want people to be free to believe or not believe.
If the restraint being shown the Arab world is ever lifted they will know bloodshed not seen since WWII. This prospect does not make me happy but sad and fearful of what may yet come. But I welcome it over a slow and steady muslim takeover of the world. You decide what you want to stand for.

I agree wholeheartedly!!

And I for one would enjoy flying with Captain Findiesen and would encourage him to discuss the depth of his faith with me. It just might make me a better person.

 

[Snakum]

I don’t believe there should be an established national religion of Christianity in the United States. It would attract and compel people to it for the wrong reasons and would eventually become corrupt.

BECOME corrupt?!?

I almost pooped my pants on this one.

And Nathan ... maybe you should read Barbara Therin, JD Crosson, and many other biblical scholars - some priests - who will argue with your experts that the bible is literally true.

If you want to believe such nonsense ... hey, more power to you, bro. But don't give us that holier-than-thou, 'we're better cause God's on our side crap'. Your silly superstitions will fade away just like those of ancient Greece, Rome, Britain, etc.

Just more garbage to rise above as we evolve into more intelligent, logical, and TOLERANT human beings.



Minh

 

[TWA Dude]

There is plenty of convincing, hard data out there that Christianity is true. It is NOT a blind faith.

Nathan:

Even as a non-Christian I was enjoying your post up untill I got to this part. There's a long-running thread on the General Board where I chimed in briefly on this subject. My main point is that just because it was written in a book considered holy doesn't mean it constitutes proof. I shan't argue that any religion out there is untrue because I'm in no place to judge. It very much does take blind faith because to belong to one religion you must ignore books others consider sacred. Remember that Muslims, Hindus and Buddists greatly outnumber Christians on this planet. If one religion were really "true" one would think word would've gotten around by now. In my belief there is one G-D and He is worshipped in many different ways through many different religions.

And BTW I know I'm not going to Hell because there is no such place. If you disagree than prove me wrong with evidence, not words.

Dude

 

[WhiteCloud]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but like someone else pointed out, many crimes have been perpetrated in the name of Christianity.
Perhaps the Vikings were right, believing in Valhalla and Odin. Of course not you say, those were heathens. Well, then the Egyptians. No, those were just silly beliefs. Right?

Well...no.....people, with all their human failings misuse religious beliefs. The belief in Christianity was the thread that held together the loosely connected Viking people.

 

[Whitestoneclimb]

I realize that this subject is a very controversial one, but I am very disappointed at the level to which some people have stooped. I am a Christian and I'm not ashamed to say that. Now before everyone starts to bash me, I'd like to say this: I will agree that this Captain was not exercising his best judgement making the announcement the way he did. That being said, I don't feel he was "pushing his religion" or "cramming it down someone's throat". A lot of people on this board have been saying that this guy is a "freak" or a "fanatic". If you look at the news story/transcript, he asked the Christians to identify themselves, NOT the non-Christians. Then he SUGGESTED that the non-Christians to talk with the Christians. Now, the Christians should not have felt threatened because its not only a priviledge, but also a biblical principle to share the Gospel if presented the opportunity. The non-Christians should not have felt threatened because they didn't HAVE to do anything. If they wanted to know more, they could ask. If they weren't interested, they could just go back to their USAToday.

Great posts Jessup and Climbhappy!

He is risen

 

[Dizel8]

"The belief in Christianity was the thread that held together the loosely connected Viking people."

I must disagree with that statement, since not until very late were the vikings converted. Prior to that they also maintained a cohesive society.

 

[MachPi]

Diszel8,

Finally, our forefathers worshipped God almighty and his son. This is recorded and make no mistake, our founding fathers read, studied and carried their bibles with them. Thomas jefferson was a devout christian man. Some of you guys have been sold a bad bill of goods.

Thomas Jefferson said "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" (Works, Vol. iv, p. 365).

and, on Revelations, "It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it, and I then considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac...I do not consider them as revelations of the Supreme being..." Thomas Jefferson
to Alexander Smyth, 1825

and if you feel inspired to quote Thomas Jefferson's letter to Charles Thomson dated Jan 9 1816, "...I am a real Christian..." please do us a favor and quote the entire text so those who haven't read it can judge what he really meant.

In all of George Washington's thousands of writings, he only mentions a Savior once: "Assist me, Muse divine, to sing the morn On which the Savior of mankind was born." George Washington, age 13, from Sparks's Washington, p. 519

Benjamin Franklin said "When religious people quarrel about religion, or hungry people about their victuals, it looks as if they had not much of either about them" (Works, Vol. vii., p. 438).

So don't try to make the founding fathers make your case for you. They won't.

originally posted by nathan jesup

There is plenty of convincing, hard data out there that Christianity is true. It is NOT a blind faith.

It astounds me when one attempts to base his faith on fact. We can discuss any particular miracle in the bible until we're blue in the face; you cannot rationally prove any one of them. Of course, I can't prove they didn't happen. Anything based only on hearsay can't be proved. For example, I can't prove my car is in the garage solely based on the fact that my wife says it is; I have to either a)trust she's not lying ("I believe the car is in the garage because I trust my wife") or b)get off my butt and see for myself ("I know my car is in the garage, because I see it there"). You may think this is a minor point, but it is, in fact, crucial. You believe the Bible because you trust that those who wrote it were inspired by God. I am skeptical because I question the trustworthiness of the eyewitnesses. You trust the eyewitnesses; I don't.

You can build a foundation for the bible's factualness in a historical sense, as I can find evidence that casts doubt on it. But that's not the point; even if I were left utterly bedazzled by your data, completely squashed by your powerful reconstruction of the evidence of the goings-on of 20 centuries ago, it still wouldn't be enough. In the end, one still has to make a leap from historical fact to spiritual truth. And that's just what it is: a leap.

We are all free to make that leap. But don't pretend there is a bridge over that void when there isn't. I agree with you when you say the stakes are high. But I will not be buffaloed into believing something can be rationally proved when it patently can't.

Finally, don't end your religious argument (or a rebuff of your witnessing) with a shake of the head and the statement "I'll pray for you." I promise you I don't need your piety; in that light, your prayer will only be self-serving. Personally, I'm a Deist (like Tom, George, and Ben). If you feel you must pray for someone's salvation, pray for theirs.



The AA captain was witnessing, which, as a Christian, is one of his duties. Witnessing, although one of the more annoying aspects of Christianity, is a big part of why Chrisitianity is what it is. It's one of the reasons why Christianity is so widespread. Religions that don't command their adherents to spread the word will not spread. This is why my next-door neighbor is Catholic and not a Manichaeist. Christianity is the efficient Wal-Mart of religions; Manichaeism was Grumpy Joe's Corner Grocery in comparison.

I'm not against witnessing. Spirituality should be discussed. But, to frankly plagiarize a fine book, to every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. In a commercial airliner, to a captive audience, was neither the time nor the season.

 

[WhiteCloud]

"The belief in Christianity was the thread that held together the loosely connected Viking people."

I must disagree with that statement, since not until very late were the vikings converted. Prior to that they also maintained a cohesive society.

Since we're talking about several hundred years here I think we can both claim some correctness. I should have used "many" or "some" Viking clans to be a little more accurate.

 

[Dizel8]

"When the Christianity first prevailed in the Nordic countries around 1000 A.D. it was led by the charismatic King Harald Bluetooth of Denmark. Throughout the years in the Nordics, the Viking population had their religion in the asatru. In the asatru the king and people of high status did not really have a direct power and control over their subordinates. The King's power was prohibited by the enormous influence of the district court. The entry of the Christianity would be a method for King Harald to keep his reign and increase his power dramatically. The new religion would allow the conditions for a stronger Nordic royal power. The Christian faith said that the king was God's herald on earth. That would make his power unquestionable, who could ever question God's decision. This, of course, made the king very positive towards the thought of changing religion to Christianity."

In other words, it was beneficial for the King, since he now obtained God's power.

History is replete with incidences, where religion has been used for political reason and to gain power. The catholic church of course is famous and even today, hold tremendous political power and clout.

If the validity of the Catholic church claim to power is questioned, then it loses strength, but since the church essentially, in the eyes of believers, speaks the word of God, the fear of repercussion is a great deterent. You either believe or you go to hell. Well, given those choices, I suppose I better believe!

It used to be, if you even questioned the word of God, well, off with your head. As I have posted previously, often the "keepers of the faith" would ban books, simply because they might incite question. That tactic was later used in Germany and in other ways, it is what the Taliban did with the ancient statues.

 

[viking737]

As a Viking myself, I recall from history class that Norway became Christian after the Battle at Stiklestad in 1030.
As an AA pilot I totally disagree with the guy who used the
PA to push his personal belief on a captive audience.

 

[pylut]

another log for the fire
burn baby burn

 

[man-down]

Dizel8 -

I knew the use of the "p" word (persecution) would get a response.

I mainly posted that in response to the more viloent responses that have been posted on this thread. I know they are just typing, but who knows how serious they are? Maybe those posts are there just to get tempers flared, I do not know.


They certainly can, that is one of the freedom we have in this country. However, I am sure religous people, whatever their faith is, ask that same question.

I agree with this statement Dizel8, but many of the posts on this thread seem to really hate the fact that some of us believe in Jesus.

I think this country was set up with Christian morals and values, but with the protection that any religion can be practiced.


"I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but like someone else pointed out, many crimes have been perpetrated in the name of Christianity."

Yes many crimes and wars have been perpetrated in the name of Christianity, and Muhamad and just about any other religion out there. I think everyone would agree that those crimes are due to humans bending the religion for their own good. Just like September 11, 2001 can be blamed on radical beliefs of the Muslium religion by a radical group.

Whithout having done so, I think that if you polled Muslims in the United States (mostly because they have experienced the freedom to practice their religion in a mostly Christian (for now) country) that they would absolutly disagree with that act. My guess is that even most Musliums around the globe disagree with what happened that day.

There have been radical Christians who have abused their power and used their religious beliefs to get people to go along with them. That is one thing that we as Americans have the responsibiliy to do: question our leaders.

Could we even be having dialogue of this sort in Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait? NO. That is not because the Muslium religion is bad, but because the people enforcing the laws will not allow tolerance or questioning of what has been practiced over the last couple thousand years.

I do believe that someone has to be right. Weather it is the Christians, Muslims, Buddahists, Athieists, ect... (sorry for those I left out). If I did not think that Christianity was the right way / religion, I would be searching somewhere else.

I think good people who believe they are right (everyone thinks they are right or they would not follow that relligion) take it upon themselves to share what they feel and believe. That is done many ways, from handing out pamphlets at the airport, knocking on doors, or just by living your life the way you believe is correct. Ohers will comment and question how and why you are the way you are.

It is people who corrupt these religions and usually people in power who do the most damage. Weather they are in power by blood line, elections, governmet overthrows, ect...

My disclaimer is that I personally do not know much about religions other that Christianity, and even there I have a lot to learn.

I have read through some of the Koran while in Kuwait and did see where Jesus is mentioned; although I believe Musliums only believe Him to be a Prophet.

Sorry if this runs on and jumps around. That is why I am a pilot.

 

[pipejockey]

"I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but like someone else pointed out, many crimes have been perpetrated in the name of Christianity."

Lets not discuss history, it is irrelevant as to what is going on today. Christians are beyond the archaic behavior of killing in the name of god. muslims continue to kill in the name of their allah to this day, with no end in sight. Christians don't have an organization for the sole purpose of murdering as many civilians as possible and damaging civilian infrastructures. muslims have alqaeda, hamas, some ridiculous martyrs brigade of which I don't know the name of, the fatah movement, and the list goes on and on.

Whithout having done so, I think that if you polled Muslims in the United States (mostly because they have experienced the freedom to practice their religion in a mostly Christian (for now) country) that they would absolutly disagree with that act. My guess is that even most Musliums around the globe disagree with what happened that day.

I wouldn't be so sure. Watch some news shows in which reporters are in muslim countries asking the average person on the street what they think. On a "CNN Presents" eposide called "Seeds Of Terror" I was shocked at the attitudes of the average muslim. Many chose to support bin "sewer sludge" ladel and quite a few were wearing osama t-shirts. If the average muslim had to chose support for either us, who are a civilized people relatively speaking, or bin ladel, I have no doubt the overwhelming majority would choose the barbarism of death and terror against westerners and Christians.

I truly feel their religion is what is holding the muslims countries back. Their religious zeal and ferver is frightening. Case in point...recently over 200 muslim faithful were trampled to death by their fellow man while trying to throw a pebble at a statue of a devil Come on folks, this is the year 2004. Is that the bahavior of a civilized people? There they are, all there for the same reason, each would get their turn to throw their own pebble at the statue, but instead of waiting, they feel they would rather trample people to death just to throw their pebble a little sooner. And this apparently happens every year there to some extent....utterly shocking that this sorta thing goes on today.

 

[vc10]

"Christians are beyond the archaic behavior of killing in the name of god. "

Uh huh. Like the Serbs taking out the Bosnian Muslims in Sarajevo, the Catholics and Protestants at each others throats in Northern Ireland?

Religious fanaticism is religious fanaticism. Thinking that your religion is somehow better is how that starts, by the way, so you're moving down that slippery slope yourself.

 

[StaticWick]

Uh ... nooooo .....

The reason you can freely post your thoughts on this board is that many of us here have walked fences in Europe, manned towers in South Korea, dodged bullets in Central America, and dropped bombs in the Middle East.

I did my part (including that 'bullet-dodging' thing) ... and I'm a Buddhist.

What have you done, Mr. Christian?

Minh

I put bombs on those airplanes that were dropped in Desert Storm. Does that count?

Last week on my BUR-LAS flight I asked if all the strippers on board would please raise their hand.

I just thought I'd remind you he said that many threads ago! ...only on SWA!

Most of it's been said so I don't need to say it.

1) Religion burns everyone's butt put a name on it: Buddhist, Christian....I did call myself Christian a while back. Now, I call myself Kingdom minded. Living the life worthy of eternal kingdom living. If I were an FO on that flight I would of said, "I am reaching for my gun if you say anything else other than, Altitude, Temperature or Time and the mandatory calls for FA's" there is a time and a place to be heard and that wasn't the time. There is also the saying, "having the right to be heard" I don't think AA customers Christian or otherwise had that in mind when they got on board.

2.) The way Jesus Christ spoke to people on earth 2000 years ago would cause most "church-going-Christians" to cause an avalanche of threads on a message board to scream foul. Oh, wait a minute they did only at church...then they went out and crucified Jesus Christ.

Flame away...

 

[SammyG]

Always wondered why out of all the "religous" figures, why Jesus is the one that incites the strongest reactions, positive or negative.

Iiiiinteresting

 

[Snakum]

I put bombs on those airplanes that were dropped in Desert Storm. Does that count?

Sure ... you're IN dude!



Minh