climbhappy said:
Diszel8,
Finally, our forefathers worshipped God almighty and his son. This is recorded and make no mistake, our founding fathers read, studied and carried their bibles with them. Thomas jefferson was a devout christian man. Some of you guys have been sold a bad bill of goods.
Thomas Jefferson said "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" (Works, Vol. iv, p. 365).
and, on Revelations, "It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it, and I then considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac...I do not consider them as revelations of the Supreme being..." Thomas Jefferson
to Alexander Smyth, 1825
and if you feel inspired to quote Thomas Jefferson's letter to Charles Thomson dated Jan 9 1816, "...I am a real Christian..." please do us a favor and quote the entire text so those who haven't read it can judge what he really meant.
In all of George Washington's thousands of writings, he only mentions a Savior once: "Assist me, Muse divine, to sing the morn On which the Savior of mankind was born." George Washington, age 13, from Sparks's Washington, p. 519
Benjamin Franklin said "When religious people quarrel about religion, or hungry people about their victuals, it looks as if they had not much of either about them" (Works, Vol. vii., p. 438).
So don't try to make the founding fathers make your case for you. They won't.
originally posted by nathan jesup
There is plenty of convincing, hard data out there that Christianity is true. It is NOT a blind faith.
It astounds me when one attempts to base his faith on fact. We can discuss any particular miracle in the bible until we're blue in the face; you cannot rationally prove any one of them. Of course, I can't prove they didn't happen. Anything based only on hearsay can't be proved. For example, I can't prove my car is in the garage solely based on the fact that my wife says it is; I have to either a)trust she's not lying ("I believe the car is in the garage because I trust my wife") or b)get off my butt and see for myself ("I know my car is in the garage, because I see it there"). You may think this is a minor point, but it is, in fact, crucial. You believe the Bible because you trust that those who wrote it were inspired by God. I am skeptical because I question the trustworthiness of the eyewitnesses. You trust the eyewitnesses; I don't.
You can build a foundation for the bible's factualness in a historical sense, as I can find evidence that casts doubt on it. But that's not the point; even if I were left utterly bedazzled by your data, completely squashed by your powerful reconstruction of the evidence of the goings-on of 20 centuries ago, it still wouldn't be enough. In the end, one still has to make a leap from historical fact to spiritual truth. And that's just what it is: a leap.
We are all free to make that leap. But don't pretend there is a bridge over that void when there isn't. I agree with you when you say the stakes are high. But I will not be buffaloed into believing something can be rationally proved when it patently can't.
Finally, don't end your religious argument (or a rebuff of your witnessing) with a shake of the head and the statement "I'll pray for you." I promise you I don't need your piety; in that light, your prayer will only be self-serving. Personally, I'm a Deist (like Tom, George, and Ben). If you feel you must pray for someone's salvation, pray for theirs.
The AA captain was witnessing, which, as a Christian, is one of his duties. Witnessing, although one of the more annoying aspects of Christianity, is a big part of why Chrisitianity is what it is. It's one of the reasons why Christianity is so widespread. Religions that don't command their adherents to spread the word will not spread. This is why my next-door neighbor is Catholic and not a Manichaeist. Christianity is the efficient Wal-Mart of religions; Manichaeism was Grumpy Joe's Corner Grocery in comparison.
I'm not against witnessing. Spirituality should be discussed. But, to frankly plagiarize a fine book, to every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. In a commercial airliner, to a captive audience, was neither the time nor the season.