More planes for ExpressJet

[79%N1]

Thank you, now part 2 of my question. Why, in your opinion, is smarter better. I see you perceived failings of pref bid, now show me the difference.

 

[mckpickle]

What is it about smartperf that they like so much? Are they thinking it will do something better?

PBS is just a delivery agent. Wish we could spend more time and energy into improving schedules and qol rather than spend all this time trying to create a new system. It would be different if everyone was unhappy with what we have. But that doesn't seem to be the case. I think most people are happy with it.

What function of smartperf is so important to them. If it will do something better, I want to know.

I couldn't agree with you more. We aren't married to it. But we feel it offers the most potential to our pilots to maintain their QOL.

 

[mckpickle]

Thank you, now part 2 of my question. Why, in your opinion, is smarter better. I see you perceived failings of pref bid, now show me the difference.

The algorythms used to globalize are different that what you see in other systems. Many systems will build lines 1-100. Then when it gets to liine 101 it will say it is unable to complete the line due to overall system constraints. So it goes back up and takes what it needs. Smartpref is inherantly different. It looks ahead....long before bidding starts and says "I have a stack of trips over the days from the 10-18th. So When people are not specific in their bidding I'm going to honor their requests HOWEVER while I'm meeting their requests I'm going to also cover my stack of open trips." It uses standing bids for the first run and then takes into account bids as theyre entered to generate a line or number at which the restricted group starts. Our research indicates that only the bottom 40% of bidders would ever see the restricted group. It WILL NOT take a trip from the most senior pilot and give it to the most junior. Also pilots in the restricted group at the top side generally don't see much effect. This is not the same "globalization" that Karmen uses to solve to zero open time. The system cannot solve to zero open time. It is not set up to do so and no matter how I try to set it up it will not solve to zero open time.
Other aspects are that training is biddable just like any other pairing. Reserves are biddable at the same time in whats called "dynamic bid modeling". So you can say "I'd like a line with xx days off. IF I cannot have that line then I want a reserve line with those days off." So you set up your bid that way and as bidding progresses maybe those days off become available to you and it reverts you back to having a line with those days off.
The other thing we like is the interface. It's live and interactive. Not so much that you see what you're going to be awarded, but you see what you CAN be awarded. In every other system you place a bid and wait for the results. If you screwed up your bid you find out when the results are posted. In this system you see right away the effects of different bidding strategies. You have instantanious feedback. It will also bid trips that you want EVEN IF senior pilots have already taken those trips. That way if they become available you are still bidding them.
Now at the end of the day pilots have a right to get a decent schedule that is based on seniority. However neglecting the basic fact that the company also has a right to run it's airline is irresponsible. And the situation that it will get you in is that the airline will with "great furry and vengance" (haha pulp fiction) come after the aspects that you've programed that won't allow it to runs it's buisness. This means that some pilots are going to work on days they don't want to. It's a basic fact and something we need to all get over or find new jobs. Having a viable scheduling system that is capable of solving the schedule is part of that. So globalization has an ugly conitation due to the trial and tribulations experienced by CAL however they are not all the same. Hope that helps answer your questions.

 

[777forever]

All of McPickle's points about Flightline are spot on. I am very open to Smartpref practice runs over here on the L-ASA side to see if it lives up to the potential he outlined.

Also kudos to the L-XJT side for the great communication.

Sent from my HTC One X+ using Tapatalk 2

 

[No Delay]

Thanks mckpickle.. Interesting

I would like to see a breakdown from Chris m. Or one of the Asa guys

 

[centralpilot]

All of McPickle's points about Flightline are spot on. I am very open to Smartpref practice runs over here on the L-XJT side to see if it lives up to the potential he outlined.

Also kudos to the L-XJT side for the great communication.

Agreed. Thanks mcpickle for the input. I'm not convinced one way or the other, but I haven't personally ruled anything out.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Expect no answers from Chris M. It's his baby and he'll burn the place down to keep it.

He once asked me why I gave a $hit about reserve rules if I wasn't on reserve.......I couldn't believe what I heard.

 

[79%N1]

Thank you.

 

[mckpickle]

I certainly don't have it all figured out. Not by a long shot. Smartpref is still new and your guys brought up a lot of good points...new company...no clients etc. So I am by no means saying it's perfect. I've found in my years that open and honest communication is the only way to build trust. There are plenty of guys on my side that don't like me or what I have to say, but I hope you can't find one who says he doesn't trust what i'm doing. Anyway, thanks for listening guys.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I appreciate the communication.

So how do we fix this impasse???

 

[777forever]

I appreciate the communication.

So how do we fix this impasse???

Tell our MEC to go with SmartPref because the company wants out of Flightline anyway.

XJT pilot group trusts McPickle, I think we should give him and this SmartPref a chance

 

[No Delay]

Would it be easier to have flightline modify its award logic to work more in line with the smartperf logic? Not totally redesign the system....

 

[COOPERVANE]

Well......I'm NOT gonna say go with smartpref "because the company wants out of flightline anyway" But I am gonna convey my support for reviewing Smartpref.

After everything I'VE read, including the Prefbid vendor letter, I don't believe that enough study was dedicated to Smartpref by our MEC. It has always puzzled me why our MEC pushed prefbid SOOO hard. REALLY hard. It has ALWAYS looked fishy.

Kickback fishy....If not that, something else....6 hour pay? I don't know

I'll let them know, but I don't have any confidence they will listen or care. Our union is so broken I fear it is way beyond repair.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Now y'all see why we like Steve so much. He works his rear-end off for the pilots and always has done so. I've been at this company since 2005 and since then I don't think I've ever heard anyone say a bad thing about him. We're lucky to have him.

 

[dojetdriver]

Now y'all see why we like Steve so much. He works his rear-end off for the pilots and always has done so. I've been at this company since 2005 and since then I don't think I've ever heard anyone say a bad thing about him. We're lucky to have him.

I'm thinking bigger picture on this one.

It's amazing how LOOOOOOONNNNNNG this information has been available to ANYBODY that wanted it. Yet it went ignored.

It's also amazing how LOOOOOOOOOONNNNG certain people kept their head buried in the sand with a "you guys don't know what your talking about" on this whole thing.

 

[Nevets]

Would it be easier to have flightline modify its award logic to work more in line with the smartperf logic? Not totally redesign the system....

A big selling point for smartpref is the live interaction. Not that it shows you what you will get for sure, but it gives you infinite amount of strategies to play with in order to see what happens. In EVERY other PBS system, you don't know until your line is awarded. In other words, if you accidentally screwed something up, you will know when it's too late. With smartpref, if you tell it I want ABC but then spits out, instantaneously, XYZ, you know right away that something went wrong and you should go back and change your bid. All BEFORE the bid closes. This, in my worthless opinion, is HUGE!

 

[dojetdriver]

A big selling point for smartpref is the live interaction. Not that it shows you what you will get for sure, but it gives you infinite amount of strategies to play with in order to see what happens. In EVERY other PBS system, you don't know until your line is awarded. In other words, if you accidentally screwed something up, you will know when it's too late. With smartpref, if you tell it I want ABC but then spits out, instantaneously, XYZ, you know right away that something went wrong and you should go back and change your bid. All BEFORE the bid closes. This, in my worthless opinion, is HUGE!

It's funny how those that don't want to listen (ignorants) scream about the lack of an "audit trail".

The live interaction feature takes care of that.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

We have a prelim award a few days before bid close to check our bids. It addresses the EXACT same issues. That, AND an audit trail.

 

[mckpickle]

The audit trail is something that needs impovement on smartpref. No argument there. There is a diagostics tab that we have access to but not in the production version. But it's half written in binary and the other half in aramaic!

 

[Nevets]

We have a prelim award a few days before bid close to check our bids. It addresses the EXACT same issues. That, AND an audit trail.

In smartpref I can bid a certain way and see what it gives me. If I don't like it or something just seems off, then I can try something different and see the results. If I change my mind two days later, I can put in a whole different strategy and see what happens, see if I can even hold that. It'll tell me instantaneously. I can literally do this hundreds of times with a hundred different strategies, if I really wanted to, and see each time what the results may look like. I can massage my strategy many different times to see what it gives me in order to get something that looks as much as what I want, considering my seniority of course. It's not just one prelim award, where many people will change afterward because its totally different from what they wanted or maybe they need a different day off now or etc etc. Think prelim awards for upgrade/base transfers, if you have those. They were almost useless because many people would change their bid and the final award look very different. With instantaneous feedback, people would see right away if it works for them or not and try something different if they wanted to. Not just one or two shots at getting it right and done. That to me is huge. I don't see how that is not better than one prelim award.

 

[enuffalready]

A big selling point for smartpref is the live interaction. Not that it shows you what you will get for sure, but it gives you infinite amount of strategies to play with in order to see what happens. In EVERY other PBS system, you don't know until your line is awarded. In other words, if you accidentally screwed something up, you will know when it's too late. With smartpref, if you tell it I want ABC but then spits out, instantaneously, XYZ, you know right away that something went wrong and you should go back and change your bid. All BEFORE the bid closes. This, in my worthless opinion, is HUGE!

Big selling point doesn't do anything if those senior haven't bid, or change their bid. And the more junior you are the more useless that feature is......seems like an odd big feature to scrap a system where 95% of us are happy for something with little true value

 

[enuffalready]

and to go a little further. the LXJT guys keep talking about features and sizzle and things that might help maybe... those are great concepts when going from line bidding to PBS... we had all the same questions, but the biggest problem is what you DONT know. After using our PBS for multiple years we have discovered any shortcomings... it would be fantastic to just tweak those. The fact that this 'real time results' feature is just not realistic. we already have that feature that gives us a preliminary award twice before the finals are published. it gives us an idea of what our award will/would be but is completely dependent on who has actually taken time to bid anything. if the senior 10% havent bid yet, there would be a tremendous cascading effect of useless information for the preliminary award or your 'real time'. seems like a silly big time huge great fantastic feature to start over on a new untested unused system.

 

[No Delay]

That's a very good point

 

[cybourg10]

So we at LXJT are just supposed to scratch our line bidding system that 95% are happy with? We are willing to meet you half way but apparently the ASA MEC doesn't understand that this is a negotiation between three parties. Out of the three systems, flightline is the most expensive to use. It cost the ASA pilots over $300,000 a year in union dues to pay people to be on permanent flight pay loss to run the system. Management is growing tired of the ASA MEC's flightline or nothing stance as well, is it really worth it?

Why has the ASA MEC said no to having two bidding systems in the JCBA? Why does Steve have to come on here and debunk all of the ridiculous smartpref rumors and personal attacks that all the gullible ASA pilots take to heart because some anonymous person typed on a message board. Shouldn't your MEC be communicating the facts to you rather than our Sched Comm Chairman on FI.com?

 

[enuffalready]

In smartpref I can bid a certain way and see what it gives me. If I don't like it or something just seems off, then I can try something different and see the results. If I change my mind two days later, I can put in a whole different strategy and see what happens, see if I can even hold that. It'll tell me instantaneously. I can literally do this hundreds of times with a hundred different strategies, if I really wanted to, and see each time what the results may look like. I can massage my strategy many different times to see what it gives me in order to get something that looks as much as what I want, considering my seniority of course. It's not just one prelim award, where many people will change afterward because its totally different from what they wanted or maybe they need a different day off now or etc etc. Think prelim awards for upgrade/base transfers, if you have those. They were almost useless because many people would change their bid and the final award look very different. With instantaneous feedback, people would see right away if it works for them or not and try something different if they wanted to. Not just one or two shots at getting it right and done. That to me is huge. I don't see how that is not better than one prelim award.

it is NOT better because a TON of people procrastinate and dont bid until late... its a pilot thing... whether its seat, aircraft, vacation, training or monthly bidding... its just what a lot of people do, especially the senior ones. You can change your strategy 16,000 times and be the General Lee of PBS but your results are useless if only the top 10% havent bid... and the more junior you are the more useless your real time data is.. seems it would be a TON easier to just have the company issue 2 or 3 prelim awards rather than scrap an entire system that 95% of us are happy with so you can get jacked up on 5 hour energy for an all night monthly bidding/strategy session that provides results dependent on others inactivity.


again..... your concerns are all things we already went through when we switched from line bidding to PBS and you guys are kicking the tires and getting excited about the rust protection vs what you really are committing yourselves to.


honestly, in the end i think we will get smartpref because now that you have introduced it, the company will push it because it will provide them MORE flexibility.. that is 2 against 1. we lose

 

[enuffalready]

So we at LXJT are just supposed to scratch our line bidding system that 95% are happy with? We are willing to meet you half way but apparently the ASA MEC doesn't understand that this is a negotiation between three parties. Out of the three systems, flightline is the most expensive to use. It cost the ASA pilots over $300,000 a year in union dues to pay people to be on permanent flight pay loss to run the system. Management is growing tired of the ASA MEC's flightline or nothing stance as well, is it really worth it?

Why has the ASA MEC said no to having two bidding systems in the JCBA? Why does Steve have to come on here and debunk all of the ridiculous smartpref rumors and personal attacks that all the gullible ASA pilots take to heart because some anonymous person typed on a message board. Shouldn't your MEC be communicating the facts to you rather than our Sched Comm Chairman on FI.com?

i have zero against steve, dont know the guy...... my point is that your line bidding is a non starter because company doesnt want it.. period.

so that leaves us with prefbid vs flightline. You guys want prefbid/company will want prefbid(gee, wonder why)...... LASA wants flightline. game over.. back to your regular scheduled programming

 

[cybourg10]

i have zero against steve, dont know the guy...... my point is that your line bidding is a non starter because company doesnt want it.. period.

so that leaves us with prefbid vs flightline. You guys want prefbid/company will want prefbid(gee, wonder why)...... LASA wants flightline. game over.. back to your regular scheduled programming

Flightline isn't an option in a 3 party negotiation when 2 parties don't want it, so why is the ASA MEC wasting our time and negotiating capital drawing lines in the sand? We even said okay to flightline for the ASA side and that still wasn't enough. They made their bed and pissed off Inc and XJT ALPA in the process, genius move.

 

[enuffalready]

Flightline isn't an option in a 3 party negotiation when 2 parties don't want it, .

i completely agree and said so. that is why i said i think we end up with prefbid.

 

[screamingpax]

I really like Flightline but I am open to new ideas. I am glad to see people considering both sides. The only thing I find ironic is this whole time we have heard from the LXJT guys, "if the company wants it, it can't be good and must be a concession". Now the way I am reading this from you guys is that the company wants prefbid. If it is so advantageous to the company, what will it do to the pilots??? That's what you all have been asking all along about PBS as a whole. And as far as the live results, that is a pointless feature as stated above. People don't bid until the last minute, change their bid, the company can and does routinely change the window and the threshold. Every one of those things will force a solution to have dramatically different results. So that feature isn't going to help.

 

[cybourg10]

i completely agree and said so. that is why i said i think we end up with prefbid.

So why has your MEC taken a flightline or nothing stance? Seems like a huge waste of time and a horrible negotiating strategy.