More planes for ExpressJet

[centralpilot]

For you LASA guys....get bent! There are 600 of us hired after the merger on the XJT side hired right in ATL. The VAST majority of our side is willing to work with you and are willing to do PBS under the right conditions. I have spoken to my reps on the issue multiple times and they are not being militant. What a bunch of jerks.

You say you are willing to work with us while simultaneously insulting the entire L-ASA pilot group. That is not a constructive contribution to the discussion.

You also say that your side isn't being "militant", but it appears to me that they are just as stuck on their preferred PBS vendor as L-ASA reps are. I don't think militant is the right word, but I do think both sides are being equally stubborn at this point. I'm sure the reps on both sides feel strongly that their preferred vendor is the best for all XJT pilots. We need to find a way to reason through the disagreement or choose a conflict resolution method so that we can move forward.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

It's a penis war!

 

[g-code]

You say you are willing to work with us while simultaneously insulting the entire L-ASA pilot group. That is not a constructive contribution to the discussion.

You also say that your side isn't being "militant", but it appears to me that they are just as stuck on their preferred PBS vendor as L-ASA reps are. I don't think militant is the right word, but I do think both sides are being equally stubborn at this point. I'm sure the reps on both sides feel strongly that their preferred vendor is the best for all XJT pilots. We need to find a way to reason through the disagreement or choose a conflict resolution method so that we can move forward.

Well, when I hear a pilot group say Flightline or nothing, say they hope we wither on the vine, etc. it makes one angry. When Delta announced the initial plane reduction on the CRJ side, and the company was mentioning the possibility of furloughs, I did not hear ONE of our guys say a word. Now that the shoe is on the other foot(so it would seem for the moment), all the Internet CRJ tough guys come out and say they don't want to merge lists etc.

We are coming off line bidding to PBS. That is a compromise. Time for the CRJ side to find one too.

 

[Thebadcat1313]

Well, when I hear a pilot group say Flightline or nothing, say they hope we wither on the vine, etc. it makes one angry. When Delta announced the initial plane reduction on the CRJ side, and the company was mentioning the possibility of furloughs, I did not hear ONE of our guys say a word. Now that the shoe is on the other foot(so it would seem for the moment), all the Internet CRJ tough guys come out and say they don't want to merge lists etc.

We are coming off line bidding to PBS. That is a compromise. Time for the CRJ side to find one too.

You obviously don't read the crackpipe then, plenty of LXJT dudes spouting off about staying separate, after the Delta TA... I don't really care though cuz there are idiots on both sides and I don't hold a whole pilot group responsible for the careless words of a few idiots (captain tony for example). I must say, when I Jumpseat on LXJT the crews are always professional and go out of their way to treat me like a king... So thank you LXJT. Let the war be fought where it should be, on the MEC level. We are not privy to all available information regarding any aspect of this new contract. Acting childish on either side does nothing to help the matter and only divides this group, which IMHO is not necessary.

 

[g-code]

Agreed. And FYI, the crackpipe is mostly the same 8-10 spleen-venters b!tching about everything....and I mean EVERYTHING.

 

[Nevets]

But the LEXT guys are pushing a system with limitations that current system does not have, and which our MEC knows we don't want. Contrary to popular thought, they have extensively checked out smartpref, and decided it is inferior and unworkable. Why that makes the asa side any more militant than the xjt side ks beyond me?

They have not really researched it. They haven't even run actual test bids with smartpref.

You also say that your side isn't being "militant", but it appears to me that they are just as stuck on their preferred PBS vendor as L-ASA reps are. I don't think militant is the right word, but I do think both sides are being equally stubborn at this point. I'm sure the reps on both sides feel strongly that their preferred vendor is the best for all XJT pilots. We need to find a way to reason through the disagreement or choose a conflict resolution method so that we can move forward.

That is not correct. The XJT MEC moved from their position of line bidding to smartpref. Your MEC has not moved one bit and in fact has made ultimatums instead. And they have turned down every single conflict resolution idea and not given any of their own. Well, other than "flight line for everyone or nothing."

 

[79%N1]

Coming off your demand of line bidding to a worse bidding system than both of us have is not some grand compromise! If my mec is trying to save me from this system then kudos to them. I believe them when they say this system is crap, and I'm not interested in this globalizing system.

 

[centralpilot]

That is not correct. The XJT MEC moved from their position of line bidding to smartpref. Your MEC has not moved one bit and in fact has made ultimatums instead.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that argument. You are mixing 2 decisions:

1. Line bidding vs. PBS
2. Bidding software

Both MECs agree on the first decision. LXJT moving to that position has nothing to do with compromising with LASA. It was a recognition that the company wasn't going to entertain line bidding in the JCBA under acceptable terms.

On the second issue both MECs have made statements that the other vendor's system is inherently flawed and unworkable. How many times has mcpickle said PrefBid won't work for XJT pilots? How is that any less stubborn? This isn't a disagreement for disagreement's sake. Both sides think the other's choice is broken. I'm not sure how we can find a compromise with that situation. I'm not really happy about options being taken off the table, but I don't think LASA should give up their current system solely because LXJT recognized reality regarding their line bidding system.

If we move to SmartPref it should be because it is a better system. I have an open mind, but the more I look at the material on Crewing Solution's website the more doubtful I am that the system can be an improvement. All the risks we sought to avoid by negotiating PBS work rules ahead of section 6 will be nullified if we switch vendors in the JCBA. We will most likely be stuck with whatever we choose for the duration of the contract, so I'll need to be thoroughly convinced that SmartPref is worth that risk. It doesn't help that the only live reference is going to be a very small group of relief line holders for whom any system will be an improvement.

 

[777forever]

Company told L-XJT that line bidding is not an option and apparently now has told L-ASA that Flightline is not an option.

Let's meet XJT in the middle and go with Smartpref to get this thing done. The company is now giving concessionary proposals at the table because we've stalled negotiations so long that we are now negotiating in a period of rapidly declining regional pay and workrules industry wide.

Frankly, I'll be shocked if we can get a contract with status quo pay and workrules

Sent from my HTC One X+ using Tapatalk 2

 

[centralpilot]

Company told L-XJT that line bidding is not an option and apparently now has told L-ASA that Flightline is not an option.

Source? PM if you prefer. I do not believe the company would be taking options off the table at this point, but if they are you'd have to wonder why. If the company really wants SmartPref it makes me even more skeptical about its merits.

Frankly, I'll be shocked if we can get a contract with status quo pay and workrules

If we can't get a TA better than status quo this PBS discussion is purely academic. There won't be a concessionary joint contact.

 

[mckpickle]

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that argument. You are mixing 2 decisions:

1. Line bidding vs. PBS
2. Bidding software

Both MECs agree on the first decision. LXJT moving to that position has nothing to do with compromising with LASA. It was a recognition that the company wasn't going to entertain line bidding in the JCBA under acceptable terms.

On the second issue both MECs have made statements that the other vendor's system is inherently flawed and unworkable. How many times has mcpickle said PrefBid won't work for XJT pilots? How is that any less stubborn? This isn't a disagreement for disagreement's sake. Both sides think the other's choice is broken. I'm not sure how we can find a compromise with that situation. I'm not really happy about options being taken off the table, but I don't think LASA should give up their current system solely because LXJT recognized reality regarding their line bidding system.

If we move to SmartPref it should be because it is a better system. I have an open mind, but the more I look at the material on Crewing Solution's website the more doubtful I am that the system can be an improvement. All the risks we sought to avoid by negotiating PBS work rules ahead of section 6 will be nullified if we switch vendors in the JCBA. We will most likely be stuck with whatever we choose for the duration of the contract, so I'll need to be thoroughly convinced that SmartPref is worth that risk. It doesn't help that the only live reference is going to be a very small group of relief line holders for whom any system will be an improvement.

This is not accurate. The report we gave to both MEC's in Sep of 2010 was that flightline would be acceptable under xx conditions. Those conditions were carefully selected in order to prevent the issues inherant in the system. They would have however added cost to an already costly system. The reason being was that without globalization there needed to be protections put in place from how the system was being used to socialize the lines in order to produce a valid solution. We've never said "F no we're not taking flightline". We said, "it would be acceptable under xx conditions". So I'm sorry but we have compromised...sometimes a bit too much.

 

[centralpilot]

This is not accurate. The report we gave to both MEC's in Sep of 2010 was that flightline would be acceptable under xx conditions. Those conditions were carefully selected in order to prevent the issues inherant in the system. They would have however added cost to an already costly system. The reason being was that without globalization there needed to be protections put in place from how the system was being used to socialize the lines in order to produce a valid solution. We've never said "F no we're not taking flightline". We said, "it would be acceptable under xx conditions". So I'm sorry but we have compromised...sometimes a bit too much.

Thanks for the additional information, but you have posted on numerous occasions that (paraphrasing) "PrefBid was an improvement over ASA line bidding but won't work with XJT work rules." If your true position was more open then I apologize, but those posts made you seem just as close-minded as you accuse my reps of being.

 

[Nevets]

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that argument. You are mixing 2 decisions:

1. Line bidding vs. PBS
2. Bidding software

Both MECs agree on the first decision. LXJT moving to that position has nothing to do with compromising with LASA. It was a recognition that the company wasn't going to entertain line bidding in the JCBA under acceptable terms.

On the second issue both MECs have made statements that the other vendor's system is inherently flawed and unworkable. How many times has mcpickle said PrefBid won't work for XJT pilots? How is that any less stubborn? This isn't a disagreement for disagreement's sake. Both sides think the other's choice is broken. I'm not sure how we can find a compromise with that situation. I'm not really happy about options being taken off the table, but I don't think LASA should give up their current system solely because LXJT recognized reality regarding their line bidding system.

If we move to SmartPref it should be because it is a better system. I have an open mind, but the more I look at the material on Crewing Solution's website the more doubtful I am that the system can be an improvement. All the risks we sought to avoid by negotiating PBS work rules ahead of section 6 will be nullified if we switch vendors in the JCBA. We will most likely be stuck with whatever we choose for the duration of the contract, so I'll need to be thoroughly convinced that SmartPref is worth that risk. It doesn't help that the only live reference is going to be a very small group of relief line holders for whom any system will be an improvement.

Ok, for argument sake, let's say I agree with you. The problem is that your MEC taken options off the table. They have turned down every single idea to decide which system is better: dual tracks, super committees, arbitration, etc. They don't have an open mind. Their email yesterday prices they didn't even research smartpref enough that it doesn't work off of bid sheets. They didn't even look deep enough to realize there are more ways than the prefbid way of bidding.

Source? PM if you prefer. I do not believe the company would be taking options off the table at this point, but if they are you'd have to wonder why. If the company really wants SmartPref it makes me even more skeptical about its merits.

There is a reason why management is moving forward and negotiating rates for larger aircraft on the ERJ side. It has nothing to do with the XJT MEC moving their position towards smartpref.

If we can't get a TA better than status quo this PBS discussion is purely academic. There won't be a concessionary joint contact.

At least we agree on something but this has been true since day one.

 

[777forever]

Source? PM if you prefer. I do not believe the company would be taking options off the table at this point, but if they are you'd have to wonder why. If the company really wants SmartPref it makes me even more skeptical about its merits.



If we can't get a TA better than status quo this PBS discussion is purely academic. There won't be a concessionary joint contact.

While our union stated in the latest update that the company that the company hasn't favored one system or the other, the actions of the company combined with the statements of the XJT union reps suggest otherwise.

McPickle's arguments make sense. Seems like every other month FO lines are late because the company and union are on the verge of a coin toss to pick a solution. All that drama for a costly PBS system. I think the company has had enough of it. If they weren't interested, I doubt they would be going through the trouble of testing SmartPref on the L-XJT side, or negotiating large RJ rates.

 

[centralpilot]

There is a reason why management is moving forward and negotiating rates for larger aircraft on the ERJ side. It has nothing to do with the XJT MEC moving their position towards smartpref.

Agreed. They are doing it because the United contract allows larger regional aircraft, the CPA provides the company with rights to some of that flying if 50-seaters are being replaced, and they can't wait forever for rates to be established by the JCBA. The L-ASA reps claim they were open to some of the conflict resolutions you mentioned but L-XJT insisted on terms/conditions they found unacceptable. Without specifics, which probably shouldn't be discussed on an open forum, I won't form an opinion on that.

I will say that I see potential problems with a dual track or a third party making the decision for us. I'd rather see a solution that comes from our pilots, such as a committee of new volunteers with fresh perspectives who can get as in depth with each system as required. Maybe there are arguments or options the current team hasn't considered. If we have any furloughed L-XJT pilots who were at ASA and held a line, and who are now using SmartPref for relief lines back at XJT, I'd be very curious to hear their initial impressions.

 

[Nevets]

Thanks for the additional information, but you have posted on numerous occasions that (paraphrasing) "PrefBid was an improvement over ASA line bidding but won't work with XJT work rules." If your true position was more open then I apologize, but those posts made you seem just as close-minded as you accuse my reps of being.

Those two statements are not mutually exclusive.

Agreed. They are doing it because the United contract allows larger regional aircraft, the CPA provides the company with rights to some of that flying if 50-seaters are being replaced, and they can't wait forever for rates to be established by the JCBA. The L-ASA reps claim they were open to some of the conflict resolutions you mentioned but L-XJT insisted on terms/conditions they found unacceptable. Without specifics, which probably shouldn't be discussed on an open forum, I won't form an opinion on that.

I will say that I see potential problems with a dual track or a third party making the decision for us. I'd rather see a solution that comes from our pilots, such as a committee of new volunteers with fresh perspectives who can get as in depth with each system as required. Maybe there are arguments or options the current team hasn't considered. If we have any furloughed L-XJT pilots who were at ASA and held a line, and who are now using SmartPref for relief lines back at XJT, I'd be very curious to hear their initial impressions.

Once the company has a rates and a training program for large CRJs on the LXJT side for these supposed UAX aircraft, you think they would just stop there if the ASA MEC keeps up their "pref bid for everyone or no merger" stance? I wouldn't tempt fate, especially since this management has pulled aircraft shenanigans in your last contract negotiations.

 

[79%N1]

Ok, for argument sake, let's say I agree with you. The problem is that your MEC taken options off the table. They have turned down every single idea to decide which system is better: dual tracks, super committees, arbitration, etc. They don't have an open mind. Their email yesterday prices they didn't even research smartpref enough that it doesn't work off of bid sheets. They didn't even look deep enough to realize there are more ways than the prefbid way of bidding.



There is a reason why management is moving forward and negotiating rates for larger aircraft on the ERJ side. It has nothing to do with the XJT MEC moving their position towards smartpref.




At least we agree on something but this has been true since day one.

Excuse my ignorance.

Could you please indicate to me which conditions of flightline's prefbid do not or would not work for the LXJT group (under proper work rules), and how/why the smartpref works better.

Lets get to the bottom of this with facts so many of us can decide for ourselves.

 

[enuffalready]

Excuse my ignorance.

Could you please indicate to me which conditions of flightline's prefbid do not or would not work for the LXJT group (under proper work rules), and how/why the smartpref works better.

Lets get to the bottom of this with facts so many of us can decide for ourselves.

---Xjet guys will win this .... company wants smartpref... Xjt wants smartpref. we are going to be stuck with that turd... ..and what makes is really really really bad is that we will be stuck with it for duration of new contract!

 

[drinksonme]

---Xjet guys will win this ... Xjt wants smartpref.

And here is the philosophy that is the problem. Win what? This is not a competition for trophy and rings. For some reason I have felt this attitude from ASA folks, like it is a competition and the winner gets the spoils. That is a cultural issue and I do not think the pilot group at ASA came up with on their own. Someone drove that idea....who? And for the record XJT has already lost if we want a PBS system. Our pilots overwhelming are against it, but the union is tasked with protecting us. If based on all the info they have, and protecting LXJT pilots is number 1, then they have lost our first battle to keep line bidding to protect us. I hope that is the case. Essentially, they may be laying on their sword as a union rep to push this on us. What do they have to gain. Yet on the LASA side, we are starting to see a "militant" stance with the ultimatum on PBS. Is that best for the pilot group? Or is best for the union reps first then the pilot group? Personally, it as if the ASA MEC is tactically trying to exert control to not lose control. That is not a good thing for the pilots of either company and not in the best interest of the group. From what I, an XJT pilot, have heard from my friends, yes pilot friends at ASA, about your union leadership is not encouraging. A tight group of good old boys who want to keep their club and will do anything to do it.....even fighting a thorough look at, not an actual, change. Why, because it is perceived threat of a lose....bring it back to a winning vs. losing no winner battle.

 

[enuffalready]

And here is the philosophy that is the problem. Win what? This is not a competition for trophy and rings. For some reason I have felt this attitude from ASA folks, like it is a competition and the winner gets the spoils. That is a cultural issue and I do not think the pilot group at ASA came up with on their own. Someone drove that idea....who? And for the record XJT has already lost if we want a PBS system. Our pilots overwhelming are against it, but the union is tasked with protecting us. If based on all the info they have, and protecting LXJT pilots is number 1, then they have lost our first battle to keep line bidding to protect us. I hope that is the case. Essentially, they may be laying on their sword as a union rep to push this on us. What do they have to gain. Yet on the LASA side, we are starting to see a "militant" stance with the ultimatum on PBS. Is that best for the pilot group? Or is best for the union reps first then the pilot group? Personally, it as if the ASA MEC is tactically trying to exert control to not lose control. That is not a good thing for the pilots of either company and not in the best interest of the group. From what I, an XJT pilot, have heard from my friends, yes pilot friends at ASA, about your union leadership is not encouraging. A tight group of good old boys who want to keep their club and will do anything to do it.....even fighting a thorough look at, not an actual, change. Why, because it is perceived threat of a lose....bring it back to a winning vs. losing no winner battle.

yes, its a win for you retards because you TURDS introduced a system that is WORSE than what we have... we will be STUCK with said turd. not only will we be stuck with this turd... but rather than a LOA we will be stuck with turd for duration of contract. congrats XJET mec. Great Work! You win...

Maybe I am looking at this all wrong. I should be excited. I cant wait for the new system that is all the rage with every airline its currently used.