More planes for ExpressJet

[IFLYASA]

And here is the philosophy that is the problem. Win what? This is not a competition for trophy and rings. For some reason I have felt this attitude from ASA folks, like it is a competition and the winner gets the spoils. That is a cultural issue and I do not think the pilot group at ASA came up with on their own. Someone drove that idea....who? And for the record XJT has already lost if we want a PBS system. Our pilots overwhelming are against it, but the union is tasked with protecting us. If based on all the info they have, and protecting LXJT pilots is number 1, then they have lost our first battle to keep line bidding to protect us. I hope that is the case. Essentially, they may be laying on their sword as a union rep to push this on us. What do they have to gain. Yet on the LASA side, we are starting to see a "militant" stance with the ultimatum on PBS. Is that best for the pilot group? Or is best for the union reps first then the pilot group? Personally, it as if the ASA MEC is tactically trying to exert control to not lose control. That is not a good thing for the pilots of either company and not in the best interest of the group. From what I, an XJT pilot, have heard from my friends, yes pilot friends at ASA, about your union leadership is not encouraging. A tight group of good old boys who want to keep their club and will do anything to do it.....even fighting a thorough look at, not an actual, change. Why, because it is perceived threat of a lose....bring it back to a winning vs. losing no winner battle.

Here's the deal. LXJET has had both "line bidding", and "PBS", XJET has had only line bidding. I was just like you. Anti PBS. I voted no. I loved my line bidding. Taking it from a pilot who wants the best of his schedule/pay, I could not do line bidding anymore. PBS is way more flexible, choosing specific days, duty in/out times, overnights, etc... So much more to chose from.

My question is how can you bash PBS if you have never used it? Wouldn't you trust someone who has dealt with both? Especially from me ( like a Xjet'er, ) who didn't want it, but saw the best of both worlds, and PBS hands down takes it. We are all on the same team. If you are a commuter, PBS is a dream, even though I'm not.

If you used it, you would know where I am coming from. I'm just saying.

 

[Nevets]

yes, its a win for you retards because you TURDS introduced a system that is WORSE than what we have... we will be STUCK with said turd. not only will we be stuck with this turd... but rather than a LOA we will be stuck with turd for duration of contract. congrats XJET mec. Great Work! You win...

Maybe I am looking at this all wrong. I should be excited. I cant wait for the new system that is all the rage with every airline its currently used.

Who says it worse? Your MEC has not even run smartpref with real pairings and real work rules. So how does anybody over there know for sure? And the best way to figure it out in real life, using dual tracks, was turned down by your MEC because of their pref bid or no merger stance. How does any of that help you?

 

[Nevets]

Here's the deal. LXJET has had both "line bidding", and "PBS", XJET has had only line bidding. I was just like you. Anti PBS. I voted no. I loved my line bidding. Taking it from a pilot who wants the best of his schedule/pay, I could not do line bidding anymore. PBS is way more flexible, choosing specific days, duty in/out times, overnights, etc... So much more to chose from.

My question is how can you bash PBS if you have never used it? Wouldn't you trust someone who has dealt with both? Especially from me ( like a Xjet'er, ) who didn't want it, but saw the best of both worlds, and PBS hands down takes it. We are all on the same team. If you are a commuter, PBS is a dream, even though I'm not.

If you used it, you would know where I am coming from. I'm just saying.

It has already been used and is going to continue to be used on the LXJT side. But I can say the same thing as you, how can you bash smartpref if you have never used it? How do you know that you won't like smartpref more than pref bid? For all you know the same thing can happen with smartpref as happened when you went from line bidding to pref bid.

 

[IFLYASA]

It has already been used and is going to continue to be used on the LXJT side. But I can say the same thing as you, how can you bash smartpref if you have never used it? How do you know that you won't like smartpref more than pref bid? For all you know the same thing can happen with smartpref as happened when you went from line bidding to pref bid.

No I cannot say. I just hope whatever the result is, it's the best possible.

 

[centralpilot]

yes, its a win for you retards because you TURDS introduced a system that is WORSE than what we have... we will be STUCK with said turd. not only will we be stuck with this turd... but rather than a LOA we will be stuck with turd for duration of contract. congrats XJET mec. Great Work! You win...

Is it impossible to have a rational discussion on here without resorting to name-calling? There is a good point in there that is discredited by your childish delivery.

 

[79%N1]

Hey.....nobody will answer me! Why doesnt prefbid work for LXJT under the same work rules that smarter would have?????

At least if smartpref is a turn it's on Mcpickle. He'll have to live with that.

 

[ASAFOE120]

Why can we not make it where the ERJ side uses SmartPref and the CRJ side continues with Flightline? Then, when the company is merged, SLI is complete, and fences come down, if you bid over to that side start using that particular bidding system.

Should that not satisfy everyone? Except maybe mgt which has to foot the bill for both systems.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

a 15 year ASA pilot and now some thugs from Houston are going to tell us what to do. Guess we're in for a showdown. The número uno can't select he pairings he wants because they would 'work better' for a guy who's been here five years. That's how this is going down. I really, really wish Skywest would have let XJet be gone

 

[mckpickle]

Hey.....nobody will answer me! Why doesnt prefbid work for LXJT under the same work rules that smarter would have?????

At least if smartpref is a turn it's on Mcpickle. He'll have to live with that.

I hope this helps.

Vendor: Flightline (a subsidiary of Sabre Airline Solutions)
Program: PrefBid (A product of Flightline)
Currently in use at: ASA, Republic, GoJet, Virgin America, and AirTran
Source of Research:
· Meeting with the Flightline development team
· Discussions and interactions with the ASA PWG
· In-depth evaluation of program using ExpressJet schedule and pairing data
Basic Description:
Flightline is a non-globalized system. Pilots input their preferences, and the person who is running the builder can sort pairings within those preferences to create better results for the entire solution. Because the system is non-globalized and considers only each pilot individually, fast run times can allow many runs to be done with different sorting to obtain the best possible results.
Analysis:
Flightline has a number of issues that would make it difficult to implement for the pilots of ExpressJet. Some of those issues are:
· Inability to create viable solution in challenging months
· Necessity to “game the system” to maximize days off
· Pre-assigned events result in “lucky lineholders/unlucky reserves”
· Excessive amount of time, resources, and manual work to complete bid runs by both the union and the company
Explanation:
A dichotomy exists in our pilot group; there are some pilots that want the maximum time off possible (including those with vacation), and those who want or need to maximize their hours. In addition, because there is such a wide variety in the pairings at the regional level (4 days ranging from 28 hours to 10 hours of credit, etc.) it can be difficult to build schedules conforming to a narrow credit window. Therefore it is necessary for the PBS to have a wide range of acceptable credit times. The ASA pilot group has negotiated that the acceptable credit window will be no less than 30 hours. The use of the “vacation low” function further expands the bottom of the credit window.
The wide credit window, coupled with the non-globalization creates a difficult problem. Because the system only looks at each bidder individually and not the overall solution, there is no way to make adjustments in the middle of the seniority list during a bid run; crew members at all seniority levels receive equal treatment. In a high flying month, this means that rather than senior bidders having the option to fly a lower time schedule, everyone is forced into a high credit line except those with vacation. The 30 hour credit window is meaningless when the bottom of the window is set at 90 hours. The system as implemented at ASA preserves time off for vacation, at everyone else’s expense.
Another undesirable aspect of the Flightline system is the need to “Game the System” to get extra days off. The Flightline system is fundamentally a pairing sorter, and at the risk of oversimplifying, assumes that pilots want to work. There is no way for a pilot to tell the Flightline system that they would like no less than 15 days off. They would instead have to bid only the pairings that when combined will give 15 days off. The pilot must foresee not only how those pairings will combine, but also what will be available at their seniority to have success. This problem is particularly accentuated for bidders seeking day trips, and even more so during vacation months. This also results in additional days off being awarded not in seniority order, but by those who “gamed the system” best.
Additional seniority issues exist within the Flightline system. As the program approaches the junior lineholders, there are fewer trips to work with. At times, because of a vacation, training event, or other leave, it will be impossible to combine those trips and “pre-assigned credits” into a legal line, so that bidder will be forced into reserve. Conversely, a bidder with the same event at a different time during the month may be awarded a line, even though numerous senior bidders were forced to reserve. This creates the concept of “lucky lineholders/unlucky reserves”, which directly violates seniority.
Finally, one of the aspects that Sabre touts in the Flightline product is that fast run times allow the company and the union to be able to rerun the bid to get better results. In practice, however, run times have been long enough that multiple people have been using multiple computers in an attempt to create additional bid runs before lines are due to be awarded. The ASA PWG has reported, and this committee has observed some run times in excess of 7 hours, severely limiting the opportunity to create additional bid runs.
Additionally, the committee believes the rebuild process is fundamentally flawed. In between bid runs, nothing changes. There is the same flying, the same number of pilots, the same pilot requests. When you put all of those variables together, there is a single solution which best meets as many of those requests as possible. The Flightline process counts on the company or the union trying to find that ideal solution. In each bid run, some requests are better met than others. The committee’s preference would be to use an award logic that best meets as many requests as possible, a single optimum solution instead of one that meets the goals of the person running the software.
The software, logic, and seniority issues inherent with the Flightline PBS are not likely to be surmountable. Although the Flightline development team worked with the ASA PWG to create a system that worked for their pilots and contained significant improvements over their previous scheduling arrangement, the committee does not feel that it would be possible to repeat those gains or even maintain the current quality of life for the ExpressJet pilot group with this software.

 

[No Delay]

What is it about smartperf that they like so much? Are they thinking it will do something better?

PBS is just a delivery agent. Wish we could spend more time and energy into improving schedules and qol rather than spend all this time trying to create a new system. It would be different if everyone was unhappy with what we have. But that doesn't seem to be the case. I think most people are happy with it.

What function of smartperf is so important to them. If it will do something better, I want to know.

 

[79%N1]

Thank you, now part 2 of my question. Why, in your opinion, is smarter better. I see you perceived failings of pref bid, now show me the difference.

 

[mckpickle]

What is it about smartperf that they like so much? Are they thinking it will do something better?

PBS is just a delivery agent. Wish we could spend more time and energy into improving schedules and qol rather than spend all this time trying to create a new system. It would be different if everyone was unhappy with what we have. But that doesn't seem to be the case. I think most people are happy with it.

What function of smartperf is so important to them. If it will do something better, I want to know.

I couldn't agree with you more. We aren't married to it. But we feel it offers the most potential to our pilots to maintain their QOL.

 

[mckpickle]

Thank you, now part 2 of my question. Why, in your opinion, is smarter better. I see you perceived failings of pref bid, now show me the difference.

The algorythms used to globalize are different that what you see in other systems. Many systems will build lines 1-100. Then when it gets to liine 101 it will say it is unable to complete the line due to overall system constraints. So it goes back up and takes what it needs. Smartpref is inherantly different. It looks ahead....long before bidding starts and says "I have a stack of trips over the days from the 10-18th. So When people are not specific in their bidding I'm going to honor their requests HOWEVER while I'm meeting their requests I'm going to also cover my stack of open trips." It uses standing bids for the first run and then takes into account bids as theyre entered to generate a line or number at which the restricted group starts. Our research indicates that only the bottom 40% of bidders would ever see the restricted group. It WILL NOT take a trip from the most senior pilot and give it to the most junior. Also pilots in the restricted group at the top side generally don't see much effect. This is not the same "globalization" that Karmen uses to solve to zero open time. The system cannot solve to zero open time. It is not set up to do so and no matter how I try to set it up it will not solve to zero open time.
Other aspects are that training is biddable just like any other pairing. Reserves are biddable at the same time in whats called "dynamic bid modeling". So you can say "I'd like a line with xx days off. IF I cannot have that line then I want a reserve line with those days off." So you set up your bid that way and as bidding progresses maybe those days off become available to you and it reverts you back to having a line with those days off.
The other thing we like is the interface. It's live and interactive. Not so much that you see what you're going to be awarded, but you see what you CAN be awarded. In every other system you place a bid and wait for the results. If you screwed up your bid you find out when the results are posted. In this system you see right away the effects of different bidding strategies. You have instantanious feedback. It will also bid trips that you want EVEN IF senior pilots have already taken those trips. That way if they become available you are still bidding them.
Now at the end of the day pilots have a right to get a decent schedule that is based on seniority. However neglecting the basic fact that the company also has a right to run it's airline is irresponsible. And the situation that it will get you in is that the airline will with "great furry and vengance" (haha pulp fiction) come after the aspects that you've programed that won't allow it to runs it's buisness. This means that some pilots are going to work on days they don't want to. It's a basic fact and something we need to all get over or find new jobs. Having a viable scheduling system that is capable of solving the schedule is part of that. So globalization has an ugly conitation due to the trial and tribulations experienced by CAL however they are not all the same. Hope that helps answer your questions.

 

[777forever]

All of McPickle's points about Flightline are spot on. I am very open to Smartpref practice runs over here on the L-ASA side to see if it lives up to the potential he outlined.

Also kudos to the L-XJT side for the great communication.

Sent from my HTC One X+ using Tapatalk 2

 

[No Delay]

Thanks mckpickle.. Interesting

I would like to see a breakdown from Chris m. Or one of the Asa guys

 

[centralpilot]

All of McPickle's points about Flightline are spot on. I am very open to Smartpref practice runs over here on the L-XJT side to see if it lives up to the potential he outlined.

Also kudos to the L-XJT side for the great communication.

Agreed. Thanks mcpickle for the input. I'm not convinced one way or the other, but I haven't personally ruled anything out.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Expect no answers from Chris M. It's his baby and he'll burn the place down to keep it.

He once asked me why I gave a $hit about reserve rules if I wasn't on reserve.......I couldn't believe what I heard.

 

[79%N1]

Thank you.

 

[mckpickle]

I certainly don't have it all figured out. Not by a long shot. Smartpref is still new and your guys brought up a lot of good points...new company...no clients etc. So I am by no means saying it's perfect. I've found in my years that open and honest communication is the only way to build trust. There are plenty of guys on my side that don't like me or what I have to say, but I hope you can't find one who says he doesn't trust what i'm doing. Anyway, thanks for listening guys.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I appreciate the communication.

So how do we fix this impasse???