More planes for ExpressJet

[www.]

Ok, maybe I'm wrong. Can you quote me your white paper where it said you tested a non-generic version of smartpref with real ASA pairings from a particular month/base/seat? Can you quote the conclusions of said testing and what it would take to maintain your QOL or if it can't, why not?

I guess I missed it.

I can't because your product continues to crash. If you had a product that was proven and has been in service then maybe someone could do a run.

 

[www.]

Yea look what happened in those terminator movies when the computers took over. But seriously, you are kcufed with any new system. Go with something that is tried and true, unless it means a pissing contest with a merger company... Then kcuf that!!! Go with the totally unproven stuff and show those guys!!!!

They, McKnight, doesn't want to because he will not have "full" control. It would have to be shared with someone from ASA and it would move him out of the limelight.

It's all about control. XE wants it over everyone.

 

[777forever]

There is ZERO chance of Prefbid being in the JCBA. The company is tired of it and after McPickle pointed out the flaws that I didn't even realize, I'm tired of it too. I'm on the SmartPref bandwagon.

If the ASA side doesn't back off on this Prefbid stance ASA will remain stagnant and all future growth will be placed on the L-XJT side. We ASA peeps need to as we so eloquently like to put "get on board" with the Company's and L-XJT's desire to switch to Smartpref.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Who cares where the growth is. You want your upgrade, and thats understandable. Perhaps Pinnacle was the place for you afterall!

 

[Nevets]

PrefBid will give pilots more schedule satisfaction than SmartPref. Please, get over the fact that L-ASA uses it. It's the system and the rules, not the pilot group. SmartPref has no rules except to stuff 8 lbs in a 5 lb bag. A computer will pick half the trips on your line except for the pilots in McPickles upper seniority range. He will get what he bids. Why shouldn't the rest of the pilots junior to him? Why should the software have that much authority?

How do you know if it will give better schedule satisfaction if you've never used smartpref? I don't even care that you guys use it. It's just annoying that your MEC are ostriches and treat you guys like mushrooms. And you saying smartpref has no rules just proves your ignorance but that's not really your fault.

And can you show me where your entire pilot group has used the product during a monthly bid process? I didn't think so.

So, since you couldn't answer my questions and completely ignored them, you change the subject? They were not rhetorical. If you have the ability to answer my questions, I'll answer yours.

I can't because your product continues to crash. If you had a product that was proven and has been in service then maybe someone could do a run.

There you go again. What do my questions to you have to do with your incorrect assertion that smartpref continues to crash?

Honestly, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I was thinking I missed it in your white paper so I was really asking. If you are right I'll take it back. I will repost my questions for you:

Can you quote me your white paper where it said you tested a non-generic version of smartpref with real ASA pairings from a particular month/base/seat? Can you quote the conclusions of said testing and what it would take to maintain your QOL or if it can't, why not?

 

[Freebrd]

There is ZERO chance of Prefbid being in the JCBA. The company is tired of it and after McPickle pointed out the flaws that I didn't even realize, I'm tired of it too. I'm on the SmartPref bandwagon.

If the ASA side doesn't back off on this Prefbid stance ASA will remain stagnant and all future growth will be placed on the L-XJT side. We ASA peeps need to as we so eloquently like to put "get on board" with the Company's and L-XJT's desire to switch to Smartpref.

777 you sicken me, but then it's all about you huh sweetheart

 

[Speedtape]

How do you know if it will give better schedule satisfaction if you've never used smartpref? I don't even care that you guys use it. It's just annoying that your MEC are ostriches and treat you guys like mushrooms. And you saying smartpref has no rules just proves your ignorance but that's not really your fault.

PrefBid will give me a better schedule because it honors seniority. SmartPref globalizes and will give me one or more trips that the "approximate logic" chooses.

My MEC did their homework and picked the best PBS several years ago. Two years of bidding and a happy pilot group is my proof. What's yours?

SmartPref has NO negotiated rules to protect your pilots. Quit your childish personal attacks. It's evidence that you can't address the issues. The more you post, the more apparent it becomes that you lack any meaningful knowledge. You are just parroting what someone else has told you. The sad part, is if you ever find out what the globalization will do to you, it wll be too late. For testimonials, ask a Continental Pilot or a SkyWest pilot about Globalization. Results cannot be explained.

Give the link to the system rules. You can't because there are none. SmartPref is no better than what the Continental Pilots are using. It's marketing spin is false.

There is no such thing as live bidding, and there is not one PBS that can make the claim. The GUI is Fool's Gold. What you see will constantly change through the bidding process. In the last hours of bidding, with the high volume of activity, your representative schedule will go through a metamorphosis. SmartPref will not be able to give accurate information the last few hours because it will bogg down and the award engine will not be able to keep up with the high volume of bidder input.

 

[JumpersAway]

Who cares where the growth is. You want your upgrade, and thats understandable. Perhaps Pinnacle was the place for you afterall!

YOU should care where the growth is, and ISN'T! The house is on fire, and we're standing being outrageously demanding on both sides of the house. The funny thing is, nobody seems to think they are the ones in trouble. The reality is we're all in deep $hit! United AND Delta want the same thing- pressure on us for the lowest block hour rate possible. Both sides are going to shrink and take a beating here.

You speak as if your longevity at this company provides you a status above this. What do you expect to happen if things tank here, and you start sliding backwards. This IS going to happen for you..............WAKE UP!

 

[enuffalready]

There is no such thing as live bidding, and there is not one PBS that can make the claim. The GUI is Fool's Gold. What you see will constantly change through the bidding process. In the last hours of bidding, with the high volume of activity, your representative schedule will go through a metamorphosis. SmartPref will not be able to give accurate information the last few hours because it will bogg down and the award engine will not be able to keep up with the high volume of bidder input.

been saying from day 1. When the bid window opens live budding will be operational but useless. then at the end when people make changes or bid for first time your live bidding is even more worthless. the only people that think it is a big deal are ones that have never used any PBS. every time someone talks about this option they lose credibility because, as stated above, it truly is fools gold

 

[777forever]

YOU should care where the growth is, and ISN'T! The house is on fire, and we're standing being outrageously demanding on both sides of the house. The funny thing is, nobody seems to think they are the ones in trouble. The reality is we're all in deep $hit! United AND Delta want the same thing- pressure on us for the lowest block hour rate possible. Both sides are going to shrink and take a beating here.

You speak as if your longevity at this company provides you a status above this. What do you expect to happen if things tank here, and you start sliding backwards. This IS going to happen for you..............WAKE UP!

Let Oakum Boy be, in a couple years when he's sitting ready reserve in ATL while we're lineholders at mainline flying transcon 1 or 2 leg a day trips he'll have plenty of time to reflect on "what could have been"

 

[mckpickle]

I can't because your product continues to crash. If you had a product that was proven and has been in service then maybe someone could do a run.

I wish I had more time to give to this thread but I'm pretty busy right now. However the system is not crashing. Issues that we're having mostly involve the files coming from the company and their format. The system has not "crashed" at all.

 

[enuffalready]

I wish I had more time to give to this thread but I'm pretty busy right now. However the system is not crashing. Issues that we're having mostly involve the files coming from the company and their format. The system has not "crashed" at all.

this is why we stress... use what we have, just tweak it. we know all the end arounds that the company uses and have plugged the holes... lets not start over

 

[Oakum_Boy]

YOU should care where the growth is, and ISN'T! The house is on fire, and we're standing being outrageously demanding on both sides of the house. The funny thing is, nobody seems to think they are the ones in trouble. The reality is we're all in deep $hit! United AND Delta want the same thing- pressure on us for the lowest block hour rate possible. Both sides are going to shrink and take a beating here.

You speak as if your longevity at this company provides you a status above this. What do you expect to happen if things tank here, and you start sliding backwards. This IS going to happen for you..............WAKE UP!

And what do you propose we do. Volunteer for concessions? Go to work for free every-other month? What?

Unless we take huge concessions, we'll never be GoJet or Pinnacle. It just can't be done, so why sacrifice our bidding system in hopes of lowering our block-hour costs to those levels. Not going to help.

 

[Nevets]

PrefBid will give me a better schedule because it honors seniority. SmartPref globalizes and will give me one or more trips that the "approximate logic" chooses.

My MEC did their homework and picked the best PBS several years ago. Two years of bidding and a happy pilot group is my proof. What's yours?

SmartPref has NO negotiated rules to protect your pilots. Quit your childish personal attacks. It's evidence that you can't address the issues. The more you post, the more apparent it becomes that you lack any meaningful knowledge. You are just parroting what someone else has told you. The sad part, is if you ever find out what the globalization will do to you, it wll be too late. For testimonials, ask a Continental Pilot or a SkyWest pilot about Globalization. Results cannot be explained.

Give the link to the system rules. You can't because there are none. SmartPref is no better than what the Continental Pilots are using. It's marketing spin is false.

There is no such thing as live bidding, and there is not one PBS that can make the claim. The GUI is Fool's Gold. What you see will constantly change through the bidding process. In the last hours of bidding, with the high volume of activity, your representative schedule will go through a metamorphosis. SmartPref will not be able to give accurate information the last few hours because it will bogg down and the award engine will not be able to keep up with the high volume of bidder input.

How does pref bid honor seniority when it forces everyone into the same threshold? Sort bias? Unstacking? The only difference is that pref bid does it with manual intervention to EVERYBODY and not just the bottom restricted group like smartpref does.

Your mec didn't really do any real homework on this. The white paper proves it by stating things that obviously don't apply to smartpref because its different. If they would have done actual test with actual pairing and actual rules, they would know that talking about bid sheets is irrelevant.

And of course it has no negotiated work rules. Your mec sets ultimatums and therefore the jnc cannot even begin to think about scheduling work rules. And they've turned down the dual track idea as well.

If you would have read what I said earlier in the post, live bidding is much more than knowing what line you will get. Its more about seeing if you bid correctly, if you are senior enough for weekends off or just Saturdays off, figuring out that there are not enough commutable trips that start on Tuesday and thing seeing that there are on Mondays, all BEFORE your line is final. If that is not valuable to you, then no one forces you to use the live bidding feature! As for the GUI, I rather use a visual system than be a computer programmer.

I honestly don't know why you are targeting things about smartpref that can only be benefits or at the very worst, can be ignored by the end user. Unless you have a hidden agenda?

As for hearsay, unless you tell us that your name is someone on the negotiating, scheduling, or MEC, you are just repeating what you hear.

been saying from day 1. When the bid window opens live budding will be operational but useless. then at the end when people make changes or bid for first time your live bidding is even more worthless. the only people that think it is a big deal are ones that have never used any PBS. every time someone talks about this option they lose credibility because, as stated above, it truly is fools gold

See above, live bidding is so much more than about seeing what your supposed line will be. And if its still worthless to the end user, they are not forced to pay attention to it.

this is why we stress... use what we have, just tweak it. we know all the end arounds that the company uses and have plugged the holes... lets not start over

But we all know that flight line will not be the same. It will have all new scheduling rules AND it wont even exist with the best thing about it if management has its way, vacation low. Anyway, he was referring to the company using end around or taking advantage of loopholes. Just normal integration teething problems that are getting work out right NOW before it would be used in a joint contract. It'll probably be 2 years before it would go live going off of current pace of negotiations. You guys will not be guinea pigs.

 

[screamingpax]

Nevets, didn't want to quote your whole post for a short quote from it. But realize our PBS does NOT force everyone to the same threshold. The Co. publishes one as a estimate for a line but it uses our personal set threshold or the window minimum to create a line. My lines have been complete at 56 hours of block and times at 108 hours of credit. All depending on vacation or how much I choose to work. As far as unstacking, it's only happened a couple of times in the 24 months of bidding. And it is usually seat and/or aircraft specific so you have really low odds unless you a real junior lineholder in a vacation month. In which case you would probably end up working on the unstack days anyways. And what is this sort bias?

Just curious, what is it you guys have against Flightline? Not, what makes Smartpref better, but simply what do you see wrong with FL?

 

[JoeMerchant]

How does pref bid honor seniority when it forces everyone into the same threshold?

It doesn't. I've had very low credit/low block hour months while other pilots have had very high credit/high block hour months....Maybe you don't really understand our system....

 

[777forever]

Apparently this is what happened behind the scenes:

Joe, the XJT MEC has said Flightline will not work for us, but we are willing to discuss ANY OTHER SYSTEM. ASA has said no. The company has said costs have gone up with flightline from even the line bidding days, they are willing to move forward with ANY OTHER PBS SYSTEM. ASA guys have said no. When ALPA national came down and put our MEC in one room and yours in another, they asked the ASA guys if they were willing to lose RFPs and possible growth oportunities if it meant standing their ground on flightline, their answer was YES. ALPA national reported back to the company saying there was nothing more to talk about, both sides stopped talking, the company requested we open up section 26 for new pay rates for larger aircraft. That IS what happened. What have I missed? What "record" needs to be "set straight"?

Very interesting that ALPA National was involved.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Apparently this is what happened behind the scenes:



Very interesting that ALPA National was involved.

That is the XJT version of what happened....There is another side to this story that isn't being told, but that will be told soon...

The XJT MEC is blowing sunshine up your tailpipe....

 

[Whydoitry]

Ok, where is the other side of the story? I think the grunts (those that pay both MEC's) would like to know what is going on.

 

[COOPERVANE]

That is the XJT version of what happened....There is another side to this story that isn't being told, but that will be told soon...

The XJT MEC is blowing sunshine up your tailpipe....

When?...

What possible reason is there for the lack of communication??

 

[JoeMerchant]

When?...

What possible reason is there for the lack of communication??

Our MEC has been trying to take the higher road and not air dirty laundry in public....I disagree with that position, but it is their position...

I would prefer to get everything out in the open....

 

[Nevets]

Nevets, didn't want to quote your whole post for a short quote from it. But realize our PBS does NOT force everyone to the same threshold. The Co. publishes one as a estimate for a line but it uses our personal set threshold or the window minimum to create a line. My lines have been complete at 56 hours of block and times at 108 hours of credit. All depending on vacation or how much I choose to work. As far as unstacking, it's only happened a couple of times in the 24 months of bidding. And it is usually seat and/or aircraft specific so you have really low odds unless you a real junior lineholder in a vacation month. In which case you would probably end up working on the unstack days anyways. And what is this sort bias?

Just curious, what is it you guys have against Flightline? Not, what makes Smartpref better, but simply what do you see wrong with FL?

From our MECs research flight line, as it exist now, would be a decrease to our QOL. They said that with improved work rules, flight line may be able to maintain our QOL but seeing that management doesn't like flight line in its current state and that they want to get rid if one of its best feature, vacation low, it was suggested that smartpref (which could maintain our QOL with existing work rules), should be pursued. I guess we can stick with flight line and use up negotiating capital in other parts of the contract to make it so that its not a decrease in our QOL but then the overall contract may be concessionary.

Our MEC has been trying to take the higher road and not air dirty laundry in public....I disagree with that position, but it is their position...

I would prefer to get everything out in the open....

Or they have something to hide?

 

[BOX OFFICE]

I have no dog in this fight, but it's true. Nevets just keeps repeating himself over and over like a trained parrot. How embarrassing.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Let Oakum Boy be, in a couple years when he's sitting ready reserve in ATL while we're lineholders at mainline flying transcon 1 or 2 leg a day trips he'll have plenty of time to reflect on "what could have been"

Lol. Or you could end up on reserve on the -88 doing 5 leg days to the same places you currently fly to.

 

[777forever]

At this point I'm siding with the XJT guys but I'm sure I'll be in the minority. You think we would have learned after Jerry sent our 17 900s to Skywest in 2007. I know we are emotionally attached to Flightline due to sending so much time implementing it, but so is XJT to their line bidding system and they are willing to let it go.

Anyways, my parents always told me if you don't hear you will feel. When Eagle and UAX CRJ900s start being placed on on the XJT side maybe the ASA MEC will open their eyes. Look up guys, because the "hammer" was never above XJT, it's above us

 

[Freebrd]

why don't you apply to LXJT 777, with your "the sky is falling" nonsense, we'll see what LXJT is made of when they bid rates for the bigger RJs, and it wouldn't be suprising if they cave with lower rates than LASA, so be it then as the race to the bottom continues

 

[SiuDude]

why don't you apply to LXJT 777, with your "the sky is falling" nonsense, we'll see what LXJT is made of when they bid rates for the bigger RJs, and it wouldn't be suprising if they cave with lower rates than LASA, so be it then as the race to the bottom continues

I don't think you've heard Freebrd: Jerry doesn't play games.

 

[No Delay]

Nevets, you say smartperf will maintain your qol... What specifically are you referring to?

Not talking award logic or globalization...what area of your qol do smartperf save that flightline doesn't?

Not being confrontational. Really trying to understand. I know there is a difference in award logic. I get that.

But from what I have gathered, we are talking minor differences??? So a senior guys has to overnight in OMA when he really wanted LIT? And someone junior got LIT because it worked better for an overall solution for everyone? Is this the kind of stuff we are talking about?

I understand the principle behind a senior person should get what he wants...but I have a hard time understanding the qol argument (from both sides). This is not exactly the type of qol items I am looking for.

What is it, in your qol, that smartperf is saving?

 

[ratherbeflyen]

I have no dog in this fight, but it's true. Nevets just keeps repeating himself over and over like a trained parrot. How embarrassing.

If you ask the same question over and over, a lie will change. The truth will be repeated.

 

[Nevets]

I have no dog in this fight, but it's true. Nevets just keeps repeating himself over and over like a trained parrot. How embarrassing.

It's funny because I was thinking the same thing. But the fact is that I kept getting asked the same question over and over again, what is it you don't like about flight line, what is so good about live bidding, why do you want to use an unproven system, why do you want globalization, etc. So I just keep answering the same questions over and over again. I don't know why they don't accept my same answers over and over again. Why do they have to keep asking the same questions over and over again? Should I just make up something different just to see of they will stop asking the same questions over and over again? It's almost like they've been given these talking point questions.