More planes for ExpressJet

[cybourg10]

I really like Flightline but I am open to new ideas. I am glad to see people considering both sides. The only thing I find ironic is this whole time we have heard from the LXJT guys, "if the company wants it, it can't be good and must be a concession". Now the way I am reading this from you guys is that the company wants prefbid. If it is so advantageous to the company, what will it do to the pilots??? That's what you all have been asking all along about PBS as a whole. And as far as the live results, that is a pointless feature as stated above. People don't bid until the last minute, change their bid, the company can and does routinely change the window and the threshold. Every one of those things will force a solution to have dramatically different results. So that feature isn't going to help.

I really like our line bidding but our sector of the industry is undergoing a huge rate reduction phase with all these bankruptcies. We have to remain competitive and if that means using a more efficient scheduling system while maintaining our QOL then that is good for everybody. Its going to be tough to compete with Gojets and Pinnacle as it is.

The live bidding window is a huge advantage. I've seen both systems, and smartpreft wins for me. Pilots don't go in at the last second and drastically change their bids like you predict but they could do that with any system. That is why you have a standing bid that adjust on the fly and shows in what to expect. Why don't you ask your MEC for a smartpref demo with ASA (or better) work rules programmed into it?

 

[No Delay]

I wish we could get away from flightline vs prefbid. I had rather hear details about what each side is expecting the system to do. Is this a pissing match over a name brand? I don't care if the system we use is created by the Taliban as long as it gives me the best schedule.

I do think the word globalization is scaring people. My thoughts are that unless the top guy is hand picking each round trip...it is not an absolute seniority system and is some form of globalization.

I do think the senior pilots should always have the better (whatever that means to them) schedules. But also think it is a silly argument to say the top guy gets 100% everything he wants...no matter what.

And I do appreciate mckpickle sharing information. We don't get much of that on the asa side.

 

[enuffalready]

So why has your MEC taken a flightline or nothing stance? Seems like a huge waste of time and a horrible negotiating strategy.

thats NOT the point he was making... see post above

 

[enuffalready]

I really like our line bidding but our sector of the industry is undergoing a huge rate reduction phase with all these bankruptcies. We have to remain competitive and if that means using a more efficient scheduling system while maintaining our QOL then that is good for everybody. Its going to be tough to compete with Gojets and Pinnacle as it is.

The live bidding window is a huge advantage. I've seen both systems, and smartpreft wins for me. Pilots don't go in at the last second and drastically change their bids like you predict but they could do that with any system. That is why you have a standing bid that adjust on the fly and shows in what to expect. Why don't you ask your MEC for a smartpref demo with ASA (or better) work rules programmed into it?

look man... you are going to get what you want... you introduced prefbid... now the company is siding with you... congrats!

and if you really really think your 'live bidding' is a huge advantage, all that demonstrates is you have zero experience truly using any PBS system in a real world environment ( bs beta tests are bs) ... that is not meant as an insult, it is what it is.....you are going to get what you want... i have already said i believe it will be prefbid in the end

 

[screamingpax]

I really like our line bidding but our sector of the industry is undergoing a huge rate reduction phase with all these bankruptcies. We have to remain competitive and if that means using a more efficient scheduling system while maintaining our QOL then that is good for everybody. Its going to be tough to compete with Gojets and Pinnacle as it is.

The live bidding window is a huge advantage. I've seen both systems, and smartpreft wins for me. Pilots don't go in at the last second and drastically change their bids like you predict but they could do that with any system. That is why you have a standing bid that adjust on the fly and shows in what to expect. Why don't you ask your MEC for a smartpref demo with ASA (or better) work rules programmed into it?

First off, you first point is what we have been trying to say to many of you all along. We don't want to take concessions, however, we must compete. I am happy to see some of you realizing this. This is something we have been trying to get you guys to realize since day 1. Its not Kool-Aid, its a matter of ensuring the company remains profitable yet competitive so that we all have jobs.

Secondly, I am not predicting pilots will go in at the last second and drastically change their bid. I am telling you they will. Don't forget we have been using this system for a while now, its not theoretical to us anymore. Even if you think they won't, realize we have multiple bid sheets. If bid sheet 1, 2, and three are all different approaches, it only takes half a second to swap them should somebody see something they don't like on a "prelim" if you will. It really doesn't take long at all to change your bid significantly. So my point is, either way there is no guarantee. If you spend some time on it, you won't need to look anyways. I still don't use our prelim and don't ever find the need to alter my schedule afterwords. I bid at about 50% back in the lineholders. Because you can get the system to work it for you assuming you bid correctly.

And what we really need is for both MECs to come together and maybe present to the pilots a comparison of the two systems. I would like to see where both have found good and bad in each, because lets face it, neither system is perfect. It might be in their best interest to find out which the pilots truly like better before they waste more time on picking one and risk it getting shot down in a TA.

I am not trying to push for Flightline, but I do not understand the mass hatred toward it from the XJT guys who have never actually used it. Almost everyone I talk to really likes it, the only ones that complain are the ones that complain about everything and spend a lot of time on here bickering. Has your MEC ever expressed to your group any of the positives from it? I am not trying to start a war, because I don't care for our MEC, but I am just wondering.

 

[ASApuppy]

You guys need to realize that "Live Bid" or something very close to it a feature that is already been programmed into Flight line Prefbid. It is disabled by our management. I saw it on the FA side when they were "learning" the new bidding. Then management turned it off for them too. So, if that's why you want this other system, please reconsider.

 

[Nevets]

Big selling point doesn't do anything if those senior haven't bid, or change their bid. And the more junior you are the more useless that feature is......seems like an odd big feature to scrap a system where 95% of us are happy for something with little true value

What you don't understand, to no fault of your own since your MEC has treated you like mushrooms, is that EVERYBODY has a standing bid to begin with. If you want to change it you can. Smartpref will also tell you who has already bid something different than their standing bid. It shows you the percentage of people above you who have bid or not. Also, it shows you what other trips you may get if the one you currently show is taken by a senior pilot. And it will show you the third choice, and fourth, and fifth, and sixth. And you can rearrange them in whatever order you would like. You can do this for every single trip you have.

and to go a little further. the LXJT guys keep talking about features and sizzle and things that might help maybe... those are great concepts when going from line bidding to PBS... we had all the same questions, but the biggest problem is what you DONT know. After using our PBS for multiple years we have discovered any shortcomings... it would be fantastic to just tweak those. The fact that this 'real time results' feature is just not realistic. we already have that feature that gives us a preliminary award twice before the finals are published. it gives us an idea of what our award will/would be but is completely dependent on who has actually taken time to bid anything. if the senior 10% havent bid yet, there would be a tremendous cascading effect of useless information for the preliminary award or your 'real time'. seems like a silly big time huge great fantastic feature to start over on a new untested unused system.

The problems is that your shortcomings are the ones management wants to keep and on top of that they want to get rid of the best thing, like vacation low. The final product will be different and worse. So there will be unknown unknowns in flight line as well because its NOT going to be the same if we do keep it. Right now Smartpref is being used in our phase 2. We are figuring out the shortcomings and what work rules would be needed. And like I said before, the live bidding aspect is more to do with being able to see what you can hold and also being able to see if you bid correctly as well. There isn't just one or two prelim awards and then the real one. You get to see if dozens of different strategies would work before its too late.

it is NOT better because a TON of people procrastinate and dont bid until late... its a pilot thing... whether its seat, aircraft, vacation, training or monthly bidding... its just what a lot of people do, especially the senior ones. You can change your strategy 16,000 times and be the General Lee of PBS but your results are useless if only the top 10% havent bid... and the more junior you are the more useless your real time data is.. seems it would be a TON easier to just have the company issue 2 or 3 prelim awards rather than scrap an entire system that 95% of us are happy with so you can get jacked up on 5 hour energy for an all night monthly bidding/strategy session that provides results dependent on others inactivity.


again..... your concerns are all things we already went through when we switched from line bidding to PBS and you guys are kicking the tires and getting excited about the rust protection vs what you really are committing yourselves to.


honestly, in the end i think we will get smartpref because now that you have introduced it, the company will push it because it will provide them MORE flexibility.. that is 2 against 1. we lose

One or two prelim awards are useless. You only give people two chances to see what their bid may end up like. With live bidding, you literally have infinate amount of bids to play with and see in real time what the possible outcome is. If you are not computer literate, you can see right away if you messed up. If you want weekends off, you can see if you are senior enough for it right away. If you are not, you can see if you can get one weekend day off right away. Or you can see if you cant hold it at all, maybe you can hold it as a reserve. And if you cant hold it as a reserve either, you can have it so that it automatically bids a hard line. All in real time! Its not really about seeing what you will hold.

I really like Flightline but I am open to new ideas. I am glad to see people considering both sides. The only thing I find ironic is this whole time we have heard from the LXJT guys, "if the company wants it, it can't be good and must be a concession". Now the way I am reading this from you guys is that the company wants prefbid. If it is so advantageous to the company, what will it do to the pilots??? That's what you all have been asking all along about PBS as a whole. And as far as the live results, that is a pointless feature as stated above. People don't bid until the last minute, change their bid, the company can and does routinely change the window and the threshold. Every one of those things will force a solution to have dramatically different results. So that feature isn't going to help.

See above on live bidding. It is not pointless. And at the very least, its way better than just having one or two prelim awards. Also, again at no fault of your own, the company CANNOT change the window or the threshold! Its fundamentally DIFFERENT than how flight line works. The company sets how many reserves they want for each day of the month and how much open time. And open time would be set contractually. As for your fist point, I personally will expect something in return for agreeing to smartpref.

I wish we could get away from flightline vs prefbid. I had rather hear details about what each side is expecting the system to do. Is this a pissing match over a name brand? I don't care if the system we use is created by the Taliban as long as it gives me the best schedule.

I do think the word globalization is scaring people. My thoughts are that unless the top guy is hand picking each round trip...it is not an absolute seniority system and is some form of globalization.

I do think the senior pilots should always have the better (whatever that means to them) schedules. But also think it is a silly argument to say the top guy gets 100% everything he wants...no matter what.

And I do appreciate mckpickle sharing information. We don't get much of that on the asa side.

You guys need to ask you MEC to give you information about smartpref then. And I'm talking about more than some white paper.

look man... you are going to get what you want... you introduced prefbid... now the company is siding with you... congrats!

and if you really really think your 'live bidding' is a huge advantage, all that demonstrates is you have zero experience truly using any PBS system in a real world environment ( bs beta tests are bs) ... that is not meant as an insult, it is what it is.....you are going to get what you want... i have already said i believe it will be prefbid in the end

You keep telling us we dont know PBS because we have never used it (no longer true). You smartpref is so different, especially with the live bidding aspect, how can you not say the same about smartpref? When Sun Country was considering it, test there showed that there wasn't much of this ebay effect you guys seem stuck on. But I'm positive you didn't hear that information from your MEC and they just tell you what advances their flight line ultimatum.

 

[Nevets]

First off, you first point is what we have been trying to say to many of you all along. We don't want to take concessions, however, we must compete. I am happy to see some of you realizing this. This is something we have been trying to get you guys to realize since day 1. Its not Kool-Aid, its a matter of ensuring the company remains profitable yet competitive so that we all have jobs.

Secondly, I am not predicting pilots will go in at the last second and drastically change their bid. I am telling you they will. Don't forget we have been using this system for a while now, its not theoretical to us anymore. Even if you think they won't, realize we have multiple bid sheets. If bid sheet 1, 2, and three are all different approaches, it only takes half a second to swap them should somebody see something they don't like on a "prelim" if you will. It really doesn't take long at all to change your bid significantly. So my point is, either way there is no guarantee. If you spend some time on it, you won't need to look anyways. I still don't use our prelim and don't ever find the need to alter my schedule afterwords. I bid at about 50% back in the lineholders. Because you can get the system to work it for you assuming you bid correctly.

And what we really need is for both MECs to come together and maybe present to the pilots a comparison of the two systems. I would like to see where both have found good and bad in each, because lets face it, neither system is perfect. It might be in their best interest to find out which the pilots truly like better before they waste more time on picking one and risk it getting shot down in a TA.

I am not trying to push for Flightline, but I do not understand the mass hatred toward it from the XJT guys who have never actually used it. Almost everyone I talk to really likes it, the only ones that complain are the ones that complain about everything and spend a lot of time on here bickering. Has your MEC ever expressed to your group any of the positives from it? I am not trying to start a war, because I don't care for our MEC, but I am just wondering.

Keep in mind that this is a pilot group that voted in a 7% concession to remain competitive. So its not like we don't know the realities of the industry. I personally will expect something in return for agreeing to PBS though since it does save money.

Also, as for live bidding, see above. It does take a half second to change the bidding strategies on smartpref. But the difference is we see right away if that strategy works or that we are senior enough for it. We don't just get one or two prelims.

As for comparisons, that was shot down by your MEC. Why?

As for your guys really liking flight line. I'm positive that is true. But what is to say you wouldn't like smartpref better? That is one point we are trying to make. Our MEC has said flight line would be ok IF we could get better work rules. But the company wants to worsen the work rules. Then they found something that works even better for maintaining our QOL. So it made sense for our MEC to go with that. But the other side will have none of it.

You guys need to realize that "Live Bid" or something very close to it a feature that is already been programmed into Flight line Prefbid. It is disabled by our management. I saw it on the FA side when they were "learning" the new bidding. Then management turned it off for them too. So, if that's why you want this other system, please reconsider.

I'll ask Steve about this. But the thing is that live bidding in flight line really is useless. And here is why. In flight line, people manually change the threshold, sort bias, unstacking, etc AFTER the bid closes. In smartpref, NOTHING is changed before, during, or after the bid closes. So in flight line, what you would see in live bidding doesn't really matter because it could all be changed when they toss the coin.

So coming from your perspective, I can now see why you guys think this feature is useless. Just keep in mind, and again at no fault of your own because you lack information from you MEC, smartpref is fundamentally different from any other PBS out there.

 

[dojetdriver]

As for your guys really liking flight line. I'm positive that is true.

I wonder how popular it'll be if, more like when vacation low gets removed?

 

[sweptback]

I wonder how popular it'll be if, more like when vacation low gets removed?

Vacation low is a way to have a fixed credit window for bidding in a vacation month. No more, no less. The amount of time you get off in a vacation month is based on the credit of a vacation day. Our vacation days credit 4 hours for line building purposes only (virtual credit), but are paid at 3.5 hours per day. So, when you get your PBS award with vacation low (and you did it correctly), you will be at 65 hours of credit, but 61.5 hours of pay. Since we negotiated that no pilot who has a bid award with PBS will receive less than guarantee, that pilot will be paid 75 hours.

Now, there are some problems with vacation low, in current form that work against the company and pilots. Here's one that can work against a pilot. In the above example, if that pilot wanted to pick up a trip, there is a lot of ground to make up before he sees any extra pay in his paycheck. Ideally that pilot would have decided that making money was the goal in the vacation month and bid appropriately (not selecting vacation low), but sometimes your plans change from the time you bid to the time you receive your schedule. Now, this pilot is not productive and may want to be, and that hurts the company as well.

Our previous vacation system entitled pilots to have a similar amount of time off, but they were not protected at guarantee for a vacation month. If you no longer received guarantee in a vacation month, the pilot would need to work another two or three day trip or accept a pay cut for the month. Ideally, a loss of vacation low in the above example would be countered by an increase of the daily pay of vacation credit.

Another problem, from the company's perspective, is the fact that if you have a vacation period that spans two months (say Jan 28-Feb 4), you are eligible to bid for vacation low in both January and February. Long story short, you will get a ton of time off and make guarantee both months. I have seen people get 4 weeks straight using only one week of vacation. From a pilots' perspective this is wonderful, and it's no surprise the vacation weeks that straddle months end up going senior. The company hates this because that pilot gets much more time off than they anticipated, obviously, but also it disproportionally affects the senior pilots who already get three or four vacation weeks. If you bid perfectly, four weeks of vacation could equate to 3 - 3.5 months off. I don't know about any employee, pilot or otherwise, that has that much time off.

That problem could be fixed (while retaining vacation low) by having a mathematical formula that adjusted the 65 hour target based on the amount of vacation days you have available in that month. While it's a wonderful benefit to our pilots currently, I don't believe anybody would say the month-straddling system is reasonable.

There are some fixes to be made to vacation low, sure, but given that both L-ERJ and L-ASA (prior to PBS) had a way to extend vacation, going back to the days of having one week of vacation equal 7-10 days off is not reasonable.

I also don't know why a L-XJT pilot would be advocating for losing vacation low. Their vacation drop and add pay system is every bit as lucrative and just as ripe for trimming in the JCBA.

 

[dojetdriver]

I also don't know why a L-XJT pilot would be advocating for losing vacation low. Their vacation drop and add pay system is every bit as lucrative and just as ripe for trimming in the JCBA.

I'm NOT advocating getting rid of vacation low. Don't be a tool and read something into my post that ISN'T there. But it's been made TERRIBLY clear, management doesn't like it and wants it gone.

However, there's more than a few L-ASA guys that feel the need to be "cost competitive". So they need to "get on board", because Jerry "doesn't play games".

As far as the rest of your post, ERJ vacation as it applies to time off and monthly grnty is night and day different compared to the way you guys used to do it. ERJ pilots are protected to min grty, and sometimes more. That's ALL work rule stuff and had ZERO to do with PBS.

 

[Clutch]

I wonder how popular it'll be if, more like when vacation low gets removed?

Why do you just assume that it will be removed?

 

[dojetdriver]

Why do you just assume that it will be removed?

See above, keep up.

Jerry doesn't play games, stop being so militant.

 

[Clutch]

See above, keep up.

Jerry doesn't play games, stop being so militant.

Losing vacation low would be a concession. We don't do concessions, pal. That's your thing

 

[dojetdriver]

Losing vacation low would be a concession. We don't do concessions, pal. That's your thing

I voted NO, BOTH times.

Don't get your feelings hurt because sarcasm is a foreign concept.

Don't vote for a crappy contract. Even though that is "your thing".

 

[sweptback]

As far as the rest of your post, ERJ vacation as it applies to time off and monthly grnty is night and day different compared to the way you guys used to do it. ERJ pilots are protected to min grty, and sometimes more. That's ALL work rule stuff and had ZERO to do with PBS.

Sure, but when I say it was a result of PBS, it means that it came with the PBS LOA. The MEC's theory when PBS was adopted was that if we could maintain the same QOL as line bidding, and split the savings (roughly) with the company, then it would be a benefit for the company and an improvement for the pilot group. I suspect that regardless of how the company postures it during negotiations, they benefit greatly from having PBS on the property. The fact that the pilots haven't had a decrease in QOL (and in most cases, ended up with an increase of QOL) is a testament to the LOA the MEC put together.

 

[Nevets]

Sure, but when I say it was a result of PBS, it means that it came with the PBS LOA. The MEC's theory when PBS was adopted was that if we could maintain the same QOL as line bidding, and split the savings (roughly) with the company, then it would be a benefit for the company and an improvement for the pilot group. I suspect that regardless of how the company postures it during negotiations, they benefit greatly from having PBS on the property. The fact that the pilots haven't had a decrease in QOL (and in most cases, ended up with an increase of QOL) is a testament to the LOA the MEC put together.

Or maybe just a fluke? Anyway, what is meant by vacation low going away (what the company wants), is the soft time associated with it, regardless of if it straddles two months. The company cares only about getting rid of soft time. Vacation low, as it exists right now, is probably one of the biggest soft time accumulators. So it is probably inaccurate to say that they want vacation low gone and more accurate that they want soft time gone. Vacation low is just the biggest culprit of soft time. I've read here that your MEC has already proposed to get rid of the soft time generated by it in order to assuage the company into keeping flight line instead of smartpref.

 

[wms]

Soft time for vacation is in two different forms in our contract. Virtual credit, which is a credit of 4 hours per vacation day for bidding only, not pay; and vacation low, which allows us to build to 65 hours of credit in a vacation month and still get paid 75 hours. It's complex to explain but bottom line is you have to bid for 37 hours worth of trips in a vacation month. Even the most junior person can hold four day trips over a weekend at each end of the month and maximize vacation.

Under the old contract we had minimum monthly guarantee, which was a prorated guarantee when you bid below 75 hours. For example I maximized vacation to 18 days off one month and got paid 55 hours under mmg. This is an unacceptable provision in a contract. This is also something foreign to pilots that have not experienced it, and a shock to us when we saw it in action. The lxjt pilots will have to be very wary of this in any TA because the company wants to bring Mmg back in a big way.

 

[Nevets]

Soft time for vacation is in two different forms in our contract. Virtual credit, which is a credit of 4 hours per vacation day for bidding only, not pay; and vacation low, which allows us to build to 65 hours of credit in a vacation month and still get paid 75 hours. It's complex to explain but bottom line is you have to bid for 37 hours worth of trips in a vacation month. Even the most junior person can hold four day trips over a weekend at each end of the month and maximize vacation.

Under the old contract we had minimum monthly guarantee, which was a prorated guarantee when you bid below 75 hours. For example I maximized vacation to 18 days off one month and got paid 55 hours under mmg. This is an unacceptable provision in a contract. This is also something foreign to pilots that have not experienced it, and a shock to us when we saw it in action. The lxjt pilots will have to be very wary of this in any TA because the company wants to bring Mmg back in a big way.

Yeah, I understand that. The soft time is the 38 hours of pay for NOT flying on a vacation month. Of course some of that will always be part of pay for vacation days (whether its 2, 4, or 5 hours of pay per day) but regardless, its something the company wants to minimize.

 

[screamingpax]

Will someone please explain something to me. I understand that with this "globalized" system, it can pull from more senior people to award to junior people. If I want to fly a 100 hour month and I have a schedule completed at that point, when it gets to someone junior to me, it can pull something from my schedule to complete theirs? Is this correct? Also, lets say 100 pilots are bidding. As you have stated the company decides the number of reserves. Let's say in this case 10. So 90 pilots WILL have lines. What if it gets to number 80 and doesn't have any more trips because many people senior to number 80 are bidding high value lines. It will go through the assigned lines and continue to remove trips from other people to complete those 10 lines? I don't see how the company can decide on the number of lines when they don't know how pilots will bid for the month. Therefore, if the company's estimate could be way off resulting in a lot of "globalization". Or will they decide that everyone will get an average line value to determine this?

One last question. Say it gets to the end and has to globalize. How does it work? Does it go from the most junior lineholder to the most senior, or does it start from the top down. And do you have anyway of preventing certain trips from being removed? I could see where some really junior people could end up with great trips and everyone in the middle is screwed. And how will this globalized solution work with "live" bidding. Will you know it while you are bidding, or will it be a surprise?