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[777forever]

I appreciate the communication.

So how do we fix this impasse???

Tell our MEC to go with SmartPref because the company wants out of Flightline anyway.

XJT pilot group trusts McPickle, I think we should give him and this SmartPref a chance

 

[No Delay]

Would it be easier to have flightline modify its award logic to work more in line with the smartperf logic? Not totally redesign the system....

 

[COOPERVANE]

Well......I'm NOT gonna say go with smartpref "because the company wants out of flightline anyway" But I am gonna convey my support for reviewing Smartpref.

After everything I'VE read, including the Prefbid vendor letter, I don't believe that enough study was dedicated to Smartpref by our MEC. It has always puzzled me why our MEC pushed prefbid SOOO hard. REALLY hard. It has ALWAYS looked fishy.

Kickback fishy....If not that, something else....6 hour pay? I don't know

I'll let them know, but I don't have any confidence they will listen or care. Our union is so broken I fear it is way beyond repair.

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Now y'all see why we like Steve so much. He works his rear-end off for the pilots and always has done so. I've been at this company since 2005 and since then I don't think I've ever heard anyone say a bad thing about him. We're lucky to have him.

 

[dojetdriver]

Now y'all see why we like Steve so much. He works his rear-end off for the pilots and always has done so. I've been at this company since 2005 and since then I don't think I've ever heard anyone say a bad thing about him. We're lucky to have him.

I'm thinking bigger picture on this one.

It's amazing how LOOOOOOONNNNNNG this information has been available to ANYBODY that wanted it. Yet it went ignored.

It's also amazing how LOOOOOOOOOONNNNG certain people kept their head buried in the sand with a "you guys don't know what your talking about" on this whole thing.

 

[Nevets]

Would it be easier to have flightline modify its award logic to work more in line with the smartperf logic? Not totally redesign the system....

A big selling point for smartpref is the live interaction. Not that it shows you what you will get for sure, but it gives you infinite amount of strategies to play with in order to see what happens. In EVERY other PBS system, you don't know until your line is awarded. In other words, if you accidentally screwed something up, you will know when it's too late. With smartpref, if you tell it I want ABC but then spits out, instantaneously, XYZ, you know right away that something went wrong and you should go back and change your bid. All BEFORE the bid closes. This, in my worthless opinion, is HUGE!

 

[dojetdriver]

A big selling point for smartpref is the live interaction. Not that it shows you what you will get for sure, but it gives you infinite amount of strategies to play with in order to see what happens. In EVERY other PBS system, you don't know until your line is awarded. In other words, if you accidentally screwed something up, you will know when it's too late. With smartpref, if you tell it I want ABC but then spits out, instantaneously, XYZ, you know right away that something went wrong and you should go back and change your bid. All BEFORE the bid closes. This, in my worthless opinion, is HUGE!

It's funny how those that don't want to listen (ignorants) scream about the lack of an "audit trail".

The live interaction feature takes care of that.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

We have a prelim award a few days before bid close to check our bids. It addresses the EXACT same issues. That, AND an audit trail.

 

[mckpickle]

The audit trail is something that needs impovement on smartpref. No argument there. There is a diagostics tab that we have access to but not in the production version. But it's half written in binary and the other half in aramaic!

 

[Nevets]

We have a prelim award a few days before bid close to check our bids. It addresses the EXACT same issues. That, AND an audit trail.

In smartpref I can bid a certain way and see what it gives me. If I don't like it or something just seems off, then I can try something different and see the results. If I change my mind two days later, I can put in a whole different strategy and see what happens, see if I can even hold that. It'll tell me instantaneously. I can literally do this hundreds of times with a hundred different strategies, if I really wanted to, and see each time what the results may look like. I can massage my strategy many different times to see what it gives me in order to get something that looks as much as what I want, considering my seniority of course. It's not just one prelim award, where many people will change afterward because its totally different from what they wanted or maybe they need a different day off now or etc etc. Think prelim awards for upgrade/base transfers, if you have those. They were almost useless because many people would change their bid and the final award look very different. With instantaneous feedback, people would see right away if it works for them or not and try something different if they wanted to. Not just one or two shots at getting it right and done. That to me is huge. I don't see how that is not better than one prelim award.

 

[enuffalready]

A big selling point for smartpref is the live interaction. Not that it shows you what you will get for sure, but it gives you infinite amount of strategies to play with in order to see what happens. In EVERY other PBS system, you don't know until your line is awarded. In other words, if you accidentally screwed something up, you will know when it's too late. With smartpref, if you tell it I want ABC but then spits out, instantaneously, XYZ, you know right away that something went wrong and you should go back and change your bid. All BEFORE the bid closes. This, in my worthless opinion, is HUGE!

Big selling point doesn't do anything if those senior haven't bid, or change their bid. And the more junior you are the more useless that feature is......seems like an odd big feature to scrap a system where 95% of us are happy for something with little true value

 

[enuffalready]

and to go a little further. the LXJT guys keep talking about features and sizzle and things that might help maybe... those are great concepts when going from line bidding to PBS... we had all the same questions, but the biggest problem is what you DONT know. After using our PBS for multiple years we have discovered any shortcomings... it would be fantastic to just tweak those. The fact that this 'real time results' feature is just not realistic. we already have that feature that gives us a preliminary award twice before the finals are published. it gives us an idea of what our award will/would be but is completely dependent on who has actually taken time to bid anything. if the senior 10% havent bid yet, there would be a tremendous cascading effect of useless information for the preliminary award or your 'real time'. seems like a silly big time huge great fantastic feature to start over on a new untested unused system.

 

[No Delay]

That's a very good point

 

[cybourg10]

So we at LXJT are just supposed to scratch our line bidding system that 95% are happy with? We are willing to meet you half way but apparently the ASA MEC doesn't understand that this is a negotiation between three parties. Out of the three systems, flightline is the most expensive to use. It cost the ASA pilots over $300,000 a year in union dues to pay people to be on permanent flight pay loss to run the system. Management is growing tired of the ASA MEC's flightline or nothing stance as well, is it really worth it?

Why has the ASA MEC said no to having two bidding systems in the JCBA? Why does Steve have to come on here and debunk all of the ridiculous smartpref rumors and personal attacks that all the gullible ASA pilots take to heart because some anonymous person typed on a message board. Shouldn't your MEC be communicating the facts to you rather than our Sched Comm Chairman on FI.com?

 

[enuffalready]

In smartpref I can bid a certain way and see what it gives me. If I don't like it or something just seems off, then I can try something different and see the results. If I change my mind two days later, I can put in a whole different strategy and see what happens, see if I can even hold that. It'll tell me instantaneously. I can literally do this hundreds of times with a hundred different strategies, if I really wanted to, and see each time what the results may look like. I can massage my strategy many different times to see what it gives me in order to get something that looks as much as what I want, considering my seniority of course. It's not just one prelim award, where many people will change afterward because its totally different from what they wanted or maybe they need a different day off now or etc etc. Think prelim awards for upgrade/base transfers, if you have those. They were almost useless because many people would change their bid and the final award look very different. With instantaneous feedback, people would see right away if it works for them or not and try something different if they wanted to. Not just one or two shots at getting it right and done. That to me is huge. I don't see how that is not better than one prelim award.

it is NOT better because a TON of people procrastinate and dont bid until late... its a pilot thing... whether its seat, aircraft, vacation, training or monthly bidding... its just what a lot of people do, especially the senior ones. You can change your strategy 16,000 times and be the General Lee of PBS but your results are useless if only the top 10% havent bid... and the more junior you are the more useless your real time data is.. seems it would be a TON easier to just have the company issue 2 or 3 prelim awards rather than scrap an entire system that 95% of us are happy with so you can get jacked up on 5 hour energy for an all night monthly bidding/strategy session that provides results dependent on others inactivity.


again..... your concerns are all things we already went through when we switched from line bidding to PBS and you guys are kicking the tires and getting excited about the rust protection vs what you really are committing yourselves to.


honestly, in the end i think we will get smartpref because now that you have introduced it, the company will push it because it will provide them MORE flexibility.. that is 2 against 1. we lose

 

[enuffalready]

So we at LXJT are just supposed to scratch our line bidding system that 95% are happy with? We are willing to meet you half way but apparently the ASA MEC doesn't understand that this is a negotiation between three parties. Out of the three systems, flightline is the most expensive to use. It cost the ASA pilots over $300,000 a year in union dues to pay people to be on permanent flight pay loss to run the system. Management is growing tired of the ASA MEC's flightline or nothing stance as well, is it really worth it?

Why has the ASA MEC said no to having two bidding systems in the JCBA? Why does Steve have to come on here and debunk all of the ridiculous smartpref rumors and personal attacks that all the gullible ASA pilots take to heart because some anonymous person typed on a message board. Shouldn't your MEC be communicating the facts to you rather than our Sched Comm Chairman on FI.com?

i have zero against steve, dont know the guy...... my point is that your line bidding is a non starter because company doesnt want it.. period.

so that leaves us with prefbid vs flightline. You guys want prefbid/company will want prefbid(gee, wonder why)...... LASA wants flightline. game over.. back to your regular scheduled programming

 

[cybourg10]

i have zero against steve, dont know the guy...... my point is that your line bidding is a non starter because company doesnt want it.. period.

so that leaves us with prefbid vs flightline. You guys want prefbid/company will want prefbid(gee, wonder why)...... LASA wants flightline. game over.. back to your regular scheduled programming

Flightline isn't an option in a 3 party negotiation when 2 parties don't want it, so why is the ASA MEC wasting our time and negotiating capital drawing lines in the sand? We even said okay to flightline for the ASA side and that still wasn't enough. They made their bed and pissed off Inc and XJT ALPA in the process, genius move.

 

[enuffalready]

Flightline isn't an option in a 3 party negotiation when 2 parties don't want it, .

i completely agree and said so. that is why i said i think we end up with prefbid.

 

[screamingpax]

I really like Flightline but I am open to new ideas. I am glad to see people considering both sides. The only thing I find ironic is this whole time we have heard from the LXJT guys, "if the company wants it, it can't be good and must be a concession". Now the way I am reading this from you guys is that the company wants prefbid. If it is so advantageous to the company, what will it do to the pilots??? That's what you all have been asking all along about PBS as a whole. And as far as the live results, that is a pointless feature as stated above. People don't bid until the last minute, change their bid, the company can and does routinely change the window and the threshold. Every one of those things will force a solution to have dramatically different results. So that feature isn't going to help.

 

[cybourg10]

i completely agree and said so. that is why i said i think we end up with prefbid.

So why has your MEC taken a flightline or nothing stance? Seems like a huge waste of time and a horrible negotiating strategy.