More planes for ExpressJet

[79%N1]

At this point, and before its too late I'm suggesting we force both sides to put out a comprehensive report selling their system, we investigate both and then vote on which one to include. This is bordering insanity. Let the masses decide, if it sucks the winning side has nobody to blame and the other side can say 'I told you so', but at least we moved on. Consider my call to my rep done...............

 

[ratherbeflyen]

At this point, and before its too late I'm suggesting we force both sides to put out a comprehensive report selling their system, we investigate both and then vote on which one to include. This is bordering insanity. Let the masses decide, if it sucks the winning side has nobody to blame and the other side can say 'I told you so', but at least we moved on. Consider my call to my rep done...............

Democracy, what a novel idea. I second this.

 

[mckpickle]

Will someone please explain something to me. I understand that with this "globalized" system, it can pull from more senior people to award to junior people. If I want to fly a 100 hour month and I have a schedule completed at that point, when it gets to someone junior to me, it can pull something from my schedule to complete theirs? Is this correct? Also, lets say 100 pilots are bidding. As you have stated the company decides the number of reserves. Let's say in this case 10. So 90 pilots WILL have lines. What if it gets to number 80 and doesn't have any more trips because many people senior to number 80 are bidding high value lines. It will go through the assigned lines and continue to remove trips from other people to complete those 10 lines? I don't see how the company can decide on the number of lines when they don't know how pilots will bid for the month. Therefore, if the company's estimate could be way off resulting in a lot of "globalization". Or will they decide that everyone will get an average line value to determine this?

One last question. Say it gets to the end and has to globalize. How does it work? Does it go from the most junior lineholder to the most senior, or does it start from the top down. And do you have anyway of preventing certain trips from being removed? I could see where some really junior people could end up with great trips and everyone in the middle is screwed. And how will this globalized solution work with "live" bidding. Will you know it while you are bidding, or will it be a surprise?

Let me take the easiest one first. The reserves lines are determined by line average. If you run the average too low then you force the system to create more line holders, thus less reserves. If you run it too high you create less line holders and more reserves. The software does have a way to say "force reserve after xx number of line holders". But by doing that you take away some of the logic of the system. Allowing it to "float" will allow the system the most flexibility for situations when pairings are added/remover or bidders are added or removed during bidding. Because, keep in mind, the system is dynamic and it allows the pairings to account for flight retimes and changes to pairings even while bidding. And it also allows the bid list to be adjusted so you won't get someone awarded a schedule when they should be on some sort of leave. But it's still driving to the line average and will not say "you can't have a line because 25 senior guys all want to fly 100 hours."


As for globalization, to answer your question, if you are in the restricted group, yes, there is a chance that a pairing that you want would be awarded to a junior pilot in order to complete the solution. Now lets talk about how it determines who is in the restricted group.

The first thing it does it evaluates where the critical period is. It takes everything such as preassigned absences (vacation, training days etc) to see that there may be a period where there are less pilots available. Then it looks at the trips to see if they are stacked up anyplace. So how does it combat that? Since it knows where the "critical period" is it knows that it's going to try to cover those trips/days with pilots who are not in the restricted group. So lets use the example that you want 4 day commutable trips with the weekends off. A very general bid. The system reads your bid and assigns trips in the best way that will cover the solution while still honoring your requests. Of course you could tag trips (request specific pairings) or be very specific on the order in which you set up your bid and pilots in the non restricted group will certainly get them if no one senior has taken them. So the system is looking ahead trying to cover that critical period and thus reducing when the restricted group starts. The key, like in every globalized PBS system is giving the system flexibility through work rules. The reason CAL was so angry wasn't due to globalization, it was because their work rules sucked. 19 hours for vacation, zero credit for training and award logic that would not leave open time.

It doesn't get to the bottom and work it's way back up because it doesn't need to. Once in the restricted group it builds 10's of thousands of combinations of lines in an attempt to best meet the bid parameters. It constructs roughly 10 lines a time then evaluates if the solution will complete inside of acceptable parameters. In our stress tests where everyone bid for the same day off the ONLY time a junior bidder got a day off he requested when a senior pilot didn't was when the senior pilot had training days and giving him the requested day off would have violated 2 in 7 off.


Here is another thing to consider. Lets say you're in the bottom 25% of lineholders. And lets say that you're also in the restricted group. In every other PBS system out there you have no idea what you can possibly hold. Unless you're in the top 10-20% you're not bidding for specific (tagging trips) pairings anyway. So saying "well I wanted that trip but a junior pilot got it" is kinda a silly argument. Because at that level you don't know what you're bidding for. You don't know whats actually available to you....except in smartpref. In any other system how are you supposed to construct your bid when you are junior and you want pairing xx? Because even if you possibly get pairing xx you don't know if the other remaining pairings will give you a complete legal line, and flightline is the same way. In smartpref you can see it right away. You can still bid it however you may not get that pairing because the combination of that pairing and the other remaining pairings is not enough to give you a legal line.

Anyway hope that helps out. I'll be in ATL all week if someone is really interested in taking a look.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I'll be in ATL all week if someone is really interested in taking a look.

When and where exactly?

 

[screamingpax]

It helps and it confuses. There are a lot of new terms. I don't understand it still, but some stuff if starting to make sense. I would like to see it in action but won't be anywhere near ATL this week. Not that any of us regular line guys have any real say in it anyways. The couple of things that I am not very sure about/uncomfortable with are phrases like "system flexibility" "average line value". To be clear, when this system is creating lines, (forget guys with vacation, i'm talking just normal monthly bidders) it drives every line toward an average value? Is there no way to control how much credit you get in a month? Secondly, what I do like about Flightline is that it is fairly simple. When its your turn for an award, it looks at what is in the pot when you are up. Then it goes through your preferences. In order and assigns until it hits the threshold, or you are no longer legal ( or window minimum if you do it right). If one pairing is in your pref #1, its yours, then #2. So if you set up your preferences properly, no person junior to you should ever get a trip that you would rather have. Unless it isn't allowed legally because of a pairing that's on your schedule as a result of a higher preference. You don't get to see and tweek your bid, which would be nice but it seems to allow for more "pilot" control, vs computer/system control. Under Flightline, I basically program the system to complete my bid and once I submit it, I am done worrying about it. It seems Smartpref may allow for more tweaking but require more time spent looking at your live bid and adjusting. Which to means seems like more work then just programming the bid. An hour or so of my time and I can create my schedule. I don't know it until its published, but assuming I didn't make any mistakes, it will be what I want/the best I could hold based on my desires. I do think that with Smartpref, you could catch your mistakes before bid closes, but honestly I am not perfect but that has only happened to me one month. And it was a simple mistake that I normally don't allow but forgot because I was in a hurry at the last minute. Not trying to discredit Smartpref, just trying to understand the advantages. Hopefully a system will be picked soon and we can get this contract done. It is better for everyone of us to be a single company.

 

[mckpickle]

I get in tonight and will be at the Atech all week. PM me and maybe we can grab a beer someplace with wifi.

 

[OCP]

Take notes for those of us who can't get to see how it works. I'd like to see it my self.

 

[Nevets]

It helps and it confuses. There are a lot of new terms. I don't understand it still, but some stuff if starting to make sense. I would like to see it in action but won't be anywhere near ATL this week. Not that any of us regular line guys have any real say in it anyways. The couple of things that I am not very sure about/uncomfortable with are phrases like "system flexibility" "average line value". To be clear, when this system is creating lines, (forget guys with vacation, i'm talking just normal monthly bidders) it drives every line toward an average value? Is there no way to control how much credit you get in a month? Secondly, what I do like about Flightline is that it is fairly simple. When its your turn for an award, it looks at what is in the pot when you are up. Then it goes through your preferences. In order and assigns until it hits the threshold, or you are no longer legal ( or window minimum if you do it right). If one pairing is in your pref #1, its yours, then #2. So if you set up your preferences properly, no person junior to you should ever get a trip that you would rather have. Unless it isn't allowed legally because of a pairing that's on your schedule as a result of a higher preference. You don't get to see and tweek your bid, which would be nice but it seems to allow for more "pilot" control, vs computer/system control. Under Flightline, I basically program the system to complete my bid and once I submit it, I am done worrying about it. It seems Smartpref may allow for more tweaking but require more time spent looking at your live bid and adjusting. Which to means seems like more work then just programming the bid. An hour or so of my time and I can create my schedule. I don't know it until its published, but assuming I didn't make any mistakes, it will be what I want/the best I could hold based on my desires. I do think that with Smartpref, you could catch your mistakes before bid closes, but honestly I am not perfect but that has only happened to me one month. And it was a simple mistake that I normally don't allow but forgot because I was in a hurry at the last minute. Not trying to discredit Smartpref, just trying to understand the advantages. Hopefully a system will be picked soon and we can get this contract done. It is better for everyone of us to be a single company.

I think he meant that, like any PBS, it's about work rules. It needs to have flexibility for the award logic to work efficiently but not so much so that it turns into CAL's system. For example, if we had a work rule that required it to solve to zero open time, you have taken some of the flexibility away and will end up with worse lines. But on the other hand, you also want to have as high as a credit value you can negotiate, assigned to vacation and training, as possible also.

As for line averages, you can set it up to give you maximum line value, up to the contractual or legal limit, or you can have it build you a line down to MMG. Of course it depends on your seniority and what the line average of those more senior to you have compared to how much open time it needs to cover with everyone below you in seniority.

Lastly, if you don't want to "worry" about your bid, you can just take your whatever time it takes you to bid, see in real time if you made any mistakes or you bid something your seniority could hold, and be done with it. No need to come back to it later. You can just wait until your line is final as you do now.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I think he meant that, like any PBS, it's about work rules. It needs to have flexibility for the award logic to work efficiently but not so much so that it turns into CAL's system. For example, if we had a work rule that required it to solve to zero open time, you have taken some of the flexibility away and will end up with worse lines. But on the other hand, you also want to have as high as a credit value you can negotiate, assigned to vacation and training, as possible also.

Just write this junk into the filghtline software. Why bring in this POS. Why? Ask yourself. Why. Give me ONE good reason other than your MEC says it the best.

If it's so good, why are you volunteering to be the guinea pig. The laboratory mouse. Why.

Flightline is a quality system. It honors seniority. ACEY PEOPLE WAKE UP

 

[Tarzan]

Yup, its being hidden by our MEC. The information was in the white paper along with everyone being told to go watch videos, bid, etc here.

http://www.crewingsolutions.com/

The XJT guys accuse our MEC of hiding things from us yet it all seems to be there for those willing o either read or click on a website and spend sometime watching videos.

 

[Nevets]

Just write this junk into the filghtline software. Why bring in this POS. Why? Ask yourself. Why. Give me ONE good reason other than your MEC says it the best.

If it's so good, why are you volunteering to be the guinea pig. The laboratory mouse. Why.

Flightline is a quality system. It honors seniority. ACEY PEOPLE WAKE UP

Because, apparently, after our MEC ran flightline with real pairings and with real work rules, the conclusion is that it would be a decrease to our quality of life. They said that it may be acceptable with a lot of work rule changes and with management wanting to worsen the work rules, it would take a lot of negotiating capital in order to just maintain our QOL, much less the cost of that in other parts of the contract.

We did not volunteer for anything. Management was going to use PBS for phase 2. Our MEC asked them to use smartpref because it's what they felt was going to be the only PBS with the possibility to maintain our existing QOL. You won't be the guinea pig, we are. If its as bad as you think it's going to be, we won't want it. So just relax and at least educate yourself.

Also, my understanding is that flight line may honor seniority but at the expense of socializing everyone's lines.

Yup, its being hidden by our MEC. The information was in the white paper along with everyone being told to go watch videos, bid, etc here.

http://www.crewingsolutions.com/

The XJT guys accuse our MEC of hiding things from us yet it all seems to be there for those willing o either read or click on a website and spend sometime watching videos.

A year late (literally) and a dollar short. That version of smartpref is generic with no work rules. Your MEC still refuses to use real pairings with real work rules. In fact, I believe they haven't run ANY pairings with smartpref. But keep up the flight line or no merger ultimatum and we will all find out what happens.

 

[Tarzan]

Talked with DC about this. Seems they have quite a few runs from EWR using YOUR pairings. You speculate like you have facts about what happens in our MEC. Somehow I don't think you have the whole story. On second thought, I have to wonder why you continue to look to keep us divided. That is all you keep trying to do here. Why?

 

[screamingpax]

I think he meant that, like any PBS, it's about work rules. It needs to have flexibility for the award logic to work efficiently but not so much so that it turns into CAL's system. For example, if we had a work rule that required it to solve to zero open time, you have taken some of the flexibility away and will end up with worse lines. But on the other hand, you also want to have as high as a credit value you can negotiate, assigned to vacation and training, as possible also.

As for line averages, you can set it up to give you maximum line value, up to the contractual or legal limit, or you can have it build you a line down to MMG. Of course it depends on your seniority and what the line average of those more senior to you have compared to how much open time it needs to cover with everyone below you in seniority.

Lastly, if you don't want to "worry" about your bid, you can just take your whatever time it takes you to bid, see in real time if you made any mistakes or you bid something your seniority could hold, and be done with it. No need to come back to it later. You can just wait until your line is final as you do now.

I am sure it works well as you guys wouldn't have chosen it, if it didn't. I am just trying to get a grasp of it. As far as the MECs go, I don't know yours so I cn't speak of them. But to all the other LASA guys, do you really trust our MEC either. We may like Flightline that they chose for use but we didn't individually see anything else. And they DO a lot of other sneaky crap over there. The ASA MEC is a club and they protect their own. Regardless of PBS system, its time for new people. These guys have been in way too long.

 

[Nevets]

Talked with DC about this. Seems they have quite a few runs from EWR using YOUR pairings. You speculate like you have facts about what happens in our MEC. Somehow I don't think you have the whole story. On second thought, I have to wonder why you continue to look to keep us divided. That is all you keep trying to do here. Why?

That's news to me. Has it occurred to you that maybe now that your MEC is under some pressure from managements counter to their ultimatum, that they've actually started to try to cover themselves for not looking into this a year ago? I mean, it took them long enough to write their white paper. And they did that before they ran any pairings with smartpref.

I'm not trying to keep us divided. On the contrary. I've been trying to tell you guys the truth so that you can actually find out what's going on on your MEC. It's too bad it took management no longer playing softball to wake some of you guys up.

 

[www.]

I'm sorry... The web site doesn't list any airline that is currently using it for actual line bidding. Why is that? Why is there no airline that can be contacted to give a true, factual, actual first hand review of the way this product works by an entire pilot group?

It's like buying a car. You can read the brochure or look at it online, and buy the car OR you can read reviews by people, which are independent participants, that have test driven the actual completed product. Which is smarter.

 

[ingleburg5]

I'm sorry... The web site doesn't list any airline that is currently using it for actual line bidding. Why is that? Why is there no airline that can be contacted to give a true, factual, actual first hand review of the way this product works by an entire pilot group?

It's like buying a car. You can read the brochure or look at it online, and buy the car OR you can read reviews by people, which are independent participants, that have test driven the actual completed product. Which is smarter.

If that's your motto I guess you would turn down someone giving you a 2013 Corvette. No one in the general population has driven it, so it must be bad. No one has SmartPref because it is a "new" product. It's not everyday that pilot groups change bidding systems. In this case, this "new" product might have worked out kinks from other bidding systems and added some new useful features, but you are not willing to consider it because you love your "old model."

 

[ratherbeflyen]

Talked with DC about this. Seems they have quite a few runs from EWR using YOUR pairings. You speculate like you have facts about what happens in our MEC. Somehow I don't think you have the whole story. On second thought, I have to wonder why you continue to look to keep us divided. That is all you keep trying to do here. Why?

Pot meet kettle.

 

[Nevets]

I'm sorry... The web site doesn't list any airline that is currently using it for actual line bidding. Why is that? Why is there no airline that can be contacted to give a true, factual, actual first hand review of the way this product works by an entire pilot group?

It's like buying a car. You can read the brochure or look at it online, and buy the car OR you can read reviews by people, which are independent participants, that have test driven the actual completed product. Which is smarter.

Seems like you operate like your MEC, using the website as the extent of your research. Like I said, keep your flight line or no merger ultimatum. We will all see what happens. And I can guess that it won't be good for either group and it would definitely be worse than just going with smartpref.

 

[dojetdriver]

Flightline is a quality system. It honors seniority. ACEY PEOPLE WAKE UP

Even though there's L-ASA pilots that ACTUALLY know how it's operated and will say the opposite of your statement above?

As well as globalization happens, although it's just manually done?

 

[www.]

If that's your motto I guess you would turn down someone giving you a 2013 Corvette. No one in the general population has driven it, so it must be bad. No one has SmartPref because it is a "new" product. It's not everyday that pilot groups change bidding systems. In this case, this "new" product might have worked out kinks from other bidding systems and added some new useful features, but you are not willing to consider it because you love your "old model."

You might want to check the Chevrolet web site. There is a 2013 Corvette and it has been driven by the public since last year. The 2014 has not been built yet.

I would take a 2014 Corvette because they, GM, Sir have proven to me with prior years of happy customers. Smart Pref has none and still has a unproven product. Your smart pref is not a corvette.

Your "model" isn't a complete model. It's still in development.

 

[www.]

Seems like you operate like your MEC, using the website as the extent of your research. Like I said, keep your flight line or no merger ultimatum. We will all see what happens. And I can guess that it won't be good for either group and it would definitely be worse than just going with smartpref.

I have seen the notes, questions and answers, from the meetings w/smart pref. I was not impressed.

 

[www.]

Even though there's L-ASA pilots that ACTUALLY know how it's operated and will say the opposite of your statement above?

As well as globalization happens, although it's just manually done?

Unstacking has taken place last year 4 times for less than a few days. It only involved a very very small group of pilots on a certain aircraft and seat. Your product does it on a monthly basis, on every aircraft and every seat, and you have no control of it.

 

[www.]

We did not volunteer for anything. Management was going to use PBS for phase 2. Our MEC asked them to use smartpref because it's what they felt was going to be the only PBS with the possibility to maintain our existing QOL. You won't be the guinea pig, we are. If its as bad as you think it's going to be, we won't want it. So just relax and at least educate yourself.
We did.

Also, my understanding is that flight line may honor seniority but at the expense of socializing everyone's lines.
Wrong again


A year late (literally) and a dollar short. That version of smartpref is generic with no work rules. Your MEC still refuses to use real pairings with real work rules. In fact, I believe they haven't run ANY pairings with smartpref. But keep up the flight line or no merger ultimatum and we will all find out what happens.

Wrong again. They did and I have seen them also.

 

[dojetdriver]

Unstacking has taken place last year 4 times for less than a few days. It only involved a very very small group of pilots on a certain aircraft and seat. Your product does it on a monthly basis, on every aircraft and every seat, and you have no control of it.

Funny, there are L-ASA pilots on here that will disagree with you. Ask "CaptOveur", he's stated in a few times.

Does he not know what he's talking about? It's easier to take his word for something over yours.

 

[Nevets]

Wrong again. They did and I have seen them also.

Ok, maybe I'm wrong. Can you quote me your white paper where it said you tested a non-generic version of smartpref with real ASA pairings from a particular month/base/seat? Can you quote the conclusions of said testing and what it would take to maintain your QOL or if it can't, why not?

I guess I missed it.

 

[Speedtape]

If that's your motto I guess you would turn down someone giving you a 2013 Corvette. No one in the general population has driven it, so it must be bad. No one has SmartPref because it is a "new" product.
SmartPref was introduced in 2004 (9 years ago). It is NOT a "new" product. In 9 years, after many groups have evaluated SmartPref, including FedX, there is not 1 single customer. Why has no one signed up for SmartPref? Maybe, because they saw unfavorable characteristics to crewmembers? Please get your facts straight.

It's not everyday that pilot groups change bidding systems. In this case, this "new" product might have worked out kinks from other bidding systems and added some new useful features, but you are not willing to consider it because you love your "old model."

Again, SmartPref, this NOT "new" product was introduced in 2004. Actually, it may be older than most other PBS systems. Flightline's PrefBid was introduced in early 2009--5 years after SmartPref. PrefBid signed up 2 airlines in early 2009, and subsequently signed at least 5 other carriers. The pilots at L-ASA have now used the software for 24 months and the pilot satisfaction is reported very high. Very few pilots would desire to go back to line bidding. PrefBid is a proven product and has been battle tested. SmartPref has very little actual history other than running a simulated exercise on a desktop.

 

[dojetdriver]

SmartPref has very little actual history other than running a simulated exercise on a desktop. [/COLOR]

Incorrect statement.

 

[Speedtape]

Seems like you operate like your MEC, using the website as the extent of your research. Like I said, keep your flight line or no merger ultimatum. We will all see what happens. And I can guess that it won't be good for either group and it would definitely be worse than just going with smartpref.

PrefBid will give pilots more schedule satisfaction than SmartPref. Please, get over the fact that L-ASA uses it. It's the system and the rules, not the pilot group. SmartPref has no rules except to stuff 8 lbs in a 5 lb bag. A computer will pick half the trips on your line except for the pilots in McPickles upper seniority range. He will get what he bids. Why shouldn't the rest of the pilots junior to him? Why should the software have that much authority?

 

[paid4training]

Yea look what happened in those terminator movies when the computers took over. But seriously, you are kcufed with any new system. Go with something that is tried and true, unless it means a pissing contest with a merger company... Then kcuf that!!! Go with the totally unproven stuff and show those guys!!!!

 

[www.]

Ok, maybe I'm wrong. Can you quote me your white paper where it said you tested a non-generic version of smartpref with real ASA pairings from a particular month/base/seat? Can you quote the conclusions of said testing and what it would take to maintain your QOL or if it can't, why not?

I guess I missed it.

And can you show me where your entire pilot group has used the product during a monthly bid process? I didn't think so.