Moral sinking at FLOPS

[993_Pilot]

933, most of us long ago came to the realization that any exchange with B19 was a complete waste of time and put him on ignore. I believe that skanza also falls in this same category although I have not put him on ignore yet. Its apparent that both of these guys are management and no mater how much you beat them over the head with the obvious truth they will never see your point.

I agree, don't encourage him by engaging him in a debate. Just ignore him.

You guys are probably right, but every so often it just gets to me, and feel like I have to respond. The problem with letting them babble their BS without a response is that the lurkers may start to believe that nonsense. At least I am sure that's what they hope anyways.

 

[B19 Flyer]

933, most of us long ago came to the realization that any exchange with B19 was a complete waste of time and put him on ignore. I believe that skanza also falls in this same category although I have not put him on ignore yet. Its apparent that both of these guys are management and no mater how much you beat them over the head with the obvious truth they will never see your point.

I don't know if skanza is/was, but yes Surfer, to a certain extent and not to the same context as I one was, I am still in management. In the past I was deeply in management and learned first hand and up close and personal what unions do, how they negotiate and how they can cripple a company with unreasonable demands even after a T/A is in place.

If you have never managed in a union shop with a contract leading the way, or been involved with negotiations or seen the stunted growth a union contract brings to a company, you don't have a leg to stand on in this conversation.

Don't take it second hand, you need to roll your sleeves up and get in the middle of it. I can tell you straight up from personal experience that once a union is on the property, management doesn't want to waste time in negotiations because they have better things to do.

In over two decades in this business, I have never, and I mean NEVER seen a situation where management has not bargained in good faith. I have however, repeatedly seen unions ask for the sky and refuse to even attempt to meet management in the middle (creating the impression they are not willing to negotiate) until mediation forces them to. If you are not personally involved in negotiations, don't believe a word of what your union people are telling you. I understand the concept of a 15 minute caucus to clarify a paragraph that stretches into half a day.

You have no idea what the reality is... unions want to force a strike thinking that it's the end all to negotiations.

I've said repeatedly that 1108 missed the boat to negotiate a decent contract by dragging their heels and demanding the sky and clouds with it. At this point, you guys are screwed, and no matter what you get for a contract, it will not be as good as what it could have been 2 years ago before the economy stuttered. 1108 didn't get it done pal... you just can't admit it, and they've cost your wallet a lot of future wages in the process while the other non-union fracs have held their own with virtually no internal turmoil.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You guys are probably right, but every so often it just gets to me, and feel like I have to respond. The problem with letting them babble their BS without a response is that the lurkers may start to believe that nonsense. At least I am sure that's what they hope anyways.

You call it BS because you are pro union and walk around with your fingers in your ears.

I speak from experience. If you don't want to understand the reasoning behind why your union has failed in getting you a decent contract while the other non-union fracs roll along without the turmoil for the last three years, please place me on ignore. I encourage you.

 

[993_Pilot]

One minute he says this in another thread:

... The company always wants to get it done, because they really do have better things to do. The company isn't stonewalling...

...and a few minutes later he says this here:

... management doesn't want to waste time in negotiations because they have better things to do ....

So which is it ? Never mind, we both already know.

 

[B19 Flyer]

One minute he says this in another thread:



...and a few minutes later he says this here:



So which is it ? Never mind, we both already know.

From an insider's perspective, one that you don't have, I'll clarify my statement for you.

Once the union is voted in, the company wants negotiations done and over with, because they have better things to do than screwing around with a bunch of pilots that want to slow the company down and create turmoil for the entire group.

Not once have I EVER seen the company stonewall negotiations. Never. The union doesn't ever move toward the middle on work rules and payroll until either the mediator, bankruptcy or a strike is looming no matter what the company offers.

They WANT the strike, the company just simply wants to get it over with.

There is no middle ground with unions, the word "negotiate" is not even in their dictionary. It is replaced by "Blackmail".

 

[EX_CV580FR8Dawg]

From an insider's perspective, one that you don't have, I'll clarify my statement for you.

Once the union is voted in, the company wants negotiations done and over with, because they have better things to do than screwing around with a bunch of pilots that want to slow the company down and create turmoil for the entire group.

Not once have I EVER seen the company stonewall negotiations. Never. The union doesn't ever move toward the middle on work rules and payroll until either the mediator, bankruptcy or a strike is looming no matter what the company offers.

They WANT the strike, the company just simply wants to get it over with.

There is no middle ground with unions, the word "negotiate" is not even in their dictionary. It is replaced by "Blackmail".

Turd......

 

[B19 Flyer]

Turd......

You know you're successful in management when you get hate mail written on the bathroom wall...

:laugh:

 

[993_Pilot]

... Once the union is voted in, the company wants negotiations done and over with, because they have better things to do than screwing around with a bunch of pilots that want to slow the company down and create turmoil for the entire group...

Why would this be true? What would even be the point? We want to be treated fairly, we want to be compensated fairly, and we want a little job protection. In short, we want a contract, not to kill a company. If the union were to kill the company, they would lose all the dues paying members, so where is the incentive? While some pilots may "slow the company down" as you say, they probably do it in an effort to give management an incentive to actually negotiate, no other reason. Even then, they wouldn't have to create anything to do so, these aircraft break often enough. All they would have to do is write them up when and where they happen, instead of carrying intermittent squawks while they are "evaluated" or while the "cause" is identified ... you know, that gray area that can make or break companies that are run on thin margins.

 

[Publishers]

We were having this debate yesterday although it was more related to some airline situations than to fractionals.
Most people do not recognize what are the real negatives of unions in airlines. Next to governmental regulations changes, technology changes, the inability to change and adapt to the market when you have significant changes is the third killer of airlines.
Examples, deregulation of airlines changed the playing field, aircraft to trains changed transportation. Inability of airlines to adjust to 9/11.
What is killing the auto business today, the same things. On the union side, pensions and benefits negotiated in better times that kill them today and the inability to change things instantly in response to market changes.
I have never seen a great contract come in these kind of economic times nor very many in companies that cannot find their foothold in the market.

 

[dime line]

You know you're successful in management when you get hate mail written on the bathroom wall...

:laugh:

WHAT A MORON, YOUR PROUD OF THIS?

 

[FR8DOG777]

management

Hate mail is indicative of piss-poor managent by an oppressed and spitefull employee group. I am reminded of seeing such writing on the back seat of the employee bus, "Vanguard airlines sucks". Well, vanguard ain't around anymore, I am sure they had very effective managers though as described by the hate mail writing on the wall. B19 couldn't manage a wet dream. An effective manager would be developing and trategizing how to compete in todays market place instead of using pilot wages to subsidize operations and wasting their time here. Why don't you P.M. me your address b19 so I can send you a special 900 gram hollowpoint for your russian roulette game you'll be playing with yourself this holliday season.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Hate mail is indicative of piss-poor managent by an oppressed and spitefull employee group. I am reminded of seeing such writing on the back seat of the employee bus, "Vanguard airlines sucks". Well, vanguard ain't around anymore, I am sure they had very effective managers though as described by the hate mail writing on the wall. B19 couldn't manage a wet dream. An effective manager would be developing and trategizing how to compete in todays market place instead of using pilot wages to subsidize operations and wasting their time here. Why don't you P.M. me your address b19 so I can send you a special 900 gram hollowpoint for your russian roulette game you'll be playing with yourself this holliday season.

Funny you should write that, because in non-union fracs that's exactly what they have time to do.

They aren't playing those silly union games with the unions, those managers are doing what they do best, creating a plan for survival through tough economic times.

Your management however is wasting time by trying to figure out how to create revenue with a bunch of pilots that only want to play union games and jeapordize the remaining financial health of the company.

 

[B19 Flyer]

WHAT A MORON, YOUR PROUD OF THIS?

I am if you are the one writing on the wall !! :laugh:

 

[B19 Flyer]

We were having this debate yesterday although it was more related to some airline situations than to fractionals.
Most people do not recognize what are the real negatives of unions in airlines. Next to governmental regulations changes, technology changes, the inability to change and adapt to the market when you have significant changes is the third killer of airlines.
Examples, deregulation of airlines changed the playing field, aircraft to trains changed transportation. Inability of airlines to adjust to 9/11.
What is killing the auto business today, the same things. On the union side, pensions and benefits negotiated in better times that kill them today and the inability to change things instantly in response to market changes.
I have never seen a great contract come in these kind of economic times nor very many in companies that cannot find their foothold in the market.

Agreed. This is a huge factor of my dislike of unions, the inability to act quickly under pressure forcing the company (no matter which company or type of business it is) to the edge of complete failure.

 

[brokeflyer]

it will all be over soon.....the economy will collapse and both pilots and management will be out of a job. Management will have their golden chutes but no where else to go after that.

So all the bickering is pointless, unless your a doctor or a lawyer your doomed.

Have a nice day.