Moral sinking at FLOPS

[B19 Flyer]

Actually, I never made a threat, and I haven't really participated in the "Safety Based" preflight discussion. Simply an observation of how a fraction works compared to an airline. I hope it never gets this far, but when the pilots of an airline goes on strike, the company chops back the schedule as needed until they can get the scabs trained and ready. A fractional can't do that because they don't determine the schedule. We both know they would have to charter aircraft to fly their owners around, Even if only half of the pilots walked out during a strike, and the company planned on staffing to a minimum, it would still take quite a while to train another 100 to 150 pilots. Could the company even find enough charter aircraft? If they could, could they afford to? I don't think they would survive for very long. How many of the present owners would want to continually cross picket lines to fly with Flops? Could you attract any new owners with all the bad press and picket lines? These people aren't flying fractional because it is the cheap way to go. So like said before, Wake up, and get real. This isn't the airlines!



You can debate whether we need a union all you want, but the fact remains that we have one...by the choice of the majority of the pilots, I might add. Look how well the union works at Southwest. When the management works with the union instead of against it, good things come of it. Why is that so hard for you to accept that? I won't sit here at my keyboard and tell you that everything union is great, but we have already tried it the other way, and look where it got us. Are you really so narrow minded that anything union has to be bad?

A strike has the same effect on a fractional as well as a scheduled carrier. They cripple the company and cost the carrier revenue.

Next, don't use and/or compare the SWA contract with anything in the industry. It was a ten year deal based on profit sharing, the only one like it. and I can assure you that it won't be repeated as they new members of the union are already showing a leaning toward a regular contract so they can get their money up front rather than through profit sharing. It was indeed a smart contract from both points of view.

It's clear that you don't see the overall effect a union has on the COMPANY as a complete entity.
You think a union is there to pad your paycheck. There is nothing a union will add if the same people involved in the union put the same effort into the company as management.

Why is it that the exact same people that are "effective" in a union, are so ineffective outside of a union working for the same company?

 

[993_Pilot]

Even if only half of the pilots walked out during a strike, and the company planned on staffing to a minimum, it would still take quite a while to train another 100 to 150 pilots. Could the company even find enough charter aircraft? If they could, could they afford to? I don't think they would survive for very long.

Sounds like a strike threat to me!

Please don't accuse me of making threats. If you read it again, I simply put forth a hypothetical situation, asked a few questions and gave my thoughts. This was a response to B19's previous statement, quoted below:

...Three years and counting, and now there is a pilot pool out there willing and ready to fill your positions in a heartbeat if you strike to feed thier families...

...When the management works with the union instead of against it, good things come of it. Why is that so hard for you to accept that? I can accept that. But like you said, "this isn't the airlines" and there fore I don't believe a union would work, or is neccessary in corperate aviation...

So you're saying that not having a union worked for us? If it had, there wouldn't be a union.

...Are you really so narrow minded that anything union has to be bad? No, in fact a despise the narrow minded approach. But a lot of things I've seen out of a union are bad...

And a lot of things can be good too! We've already tried it your way, now we're trying the union way.

 

[993_Pilot]

A strike has the same effect on a fractional as well as a scheduled carrier. They cripple the company and cost the carrier revenue.

Exactly. Probably even more so with a fractional operation than an airline. That's why I hope it never comes to that. If the management negotiates in good faith, it never will.

Next, don't use and/or compare the SWA contract with anything in the industry. It was a ten year deal based on profit sharing, the only one like it. and I can assure you that it won't be repeated as they new members of the union are already showing a leaning toward a regular contract so they can get their money up front rather than through profit sharing. It was indeed a smart contract from both points of view.

Just because it was a unique contract doesn't mean it can't or won't be repeated. There are all kinds of ways to write a contract, and it can be a win/win for everyone. If you are who everyone here seems to think you are, then you have the right person's ear. Why don't you use some of your influence to make it more "Southwest like". I would love to see the southwest spirit, that the majority of their employees have, invade Flops, but that won't happen until the Flops employees feel that they are being treated fairly.

It's clear that you don't see the overall effect a union has on the COMPANY as a complete entity.
You think a union is there to pad your paycheck. There is nothing a union will add if the same people involved in the union put the same effort into the company as management.

I do understand the overall effect that the union has on a company, and in a perfect world, we wouldn't need the union. Although I do want better pay as a part of the contract, that actually is only a small portion of it. What I really want is work rules that can't continually changed to suit management any time they choose. All the management has done for the last several years is taketh away while they throw us a few table scraps here and there.

There is nothing a union will add if the same people involved in the union put the same effort into the company as management.

Wrong, it puts everything in writing and sets forth rules that both sides have to live by. Would the management do that for us without a union? Of course not! does it make it harder for the company to operate, you bet. Just remember that the management created the need for the union, not the pilots. The SFO program was a perfect example of a carrot thrown out that very few pilots ever even understood how to achieve. It was a good concept, but it was poorly executed. Consequentially, everyone felt like it was nothing more than a "good ol' boy club". It needed to have clear objectives, potentially obtainable by all, not subjective interviews with vague objectives that no one seemed to understand. The legs/day productivity bonus was another ill conceived program. The only influence the pilots had over their schedule was to fly broken aircraft, or accept unrealistically scheduled duty days. I suspect it was designed that way, but even if it wasn't, do we really want to put that perception out there? The fly right/fuel one is much better, but still has a few problems. The biggest, of course, is that the amount of incentive has to be more than a half days wage every three months for it to actually be much of an incentive.

Why is it that the exact same people that are "effective" in a union, are so ineffective outside of a union working for the same company?

Simple, motivation. To use your dog analogy, You can only kick a dog so many time before he'll get up and bite you. It you ignore him and feed him just enough to stay alive, he'll lay around sleeping all day. However, if you give him frequent treats, he'll be your best friend.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Waste of time

933, most of us long ago came to the realization that any exchange with B19 was a complete waste of time and put him on ignore. I believe that skanza also falls in this same category although I have not put him on ignore yet. Its apparent that both of these guys are management and no mater how much you beat them over the head with the obvious truth they will never see your point.

 

[Frac Cap]

I agree, don't encourage him by engaging him in a debate. Just ignore him.

 

[993_Pilot]

933, most of us long ago came to the realization that any exchange with B19 was a complete waste of time and put him on ignore. I believe that skanza also falls in this same category although I have not put him on ignore yet. Its apparent that both of these guys are management and no mater how much you beat them over the head with the obvious truth they will never see your point.

I agree, don't encourage him by engaging him in a debate. Just ignore him.

You guys are probably right, but every so often it just gets to me, and feel like I have to respond. The problem with letting them babble their BS without a response is that the lurkers may start to believe that nonsense. At least I am sure that's what they hope anyways.

 

[B19 Flyer]

933, most of us long ago came to the realization that any exchange with B19 was a complete waste of time and put him on ignore. I believe that skanza also falls in this same category although I have not put him on ignore yet. Its apparent that both of these guys are management and no mater how much you beat them over the head with the obvious truth they will never see your point.

I don't know if skanza is/was, but yes Surfer, to a certain extent and not to the same context as I one was, I am still in management. In the past I was deeply in management and learned first hand and up close and personal what unions do, how they negotiate and how they can cripple a company with unreasonable demands even after a T/A is in place.

If you have never managed in a union shop with a contract leading the way, or been involved with negotiations or seen the stunted growth a union contract brings to a company, you don't have a leg to stand on in this conversation.

Don't take it second hand, you need to roll your sleeves up and get in the middle of it. I can tell you straight up from personal experience that once a union is on the property, management doesn't want to waste time in negotiations because they have better things to do.

In over two decades in this business, I have never, and I mean NEVER seen a situation where management has not bargained in good faith. I have however, repeatedly seen unions ask for the sky and refuse to even attempt to meet management in the middle (creating the impression they are not willing to negotiate) until mediation forces them to. If you are not personally involved in negotiations, don't believe a word of what your union people are telling you. I understand the concept of a 15 minute caucus to clarify a paragraph that stretches into half a day.

You have no idea what the reality is... unions want to force a strike thinking that it's the end all to negotiations.

I've said repeatedly that 1108 missed the boat to negotiate a decent contract by dragging their heels and demanding the sky and clouds with it. At this point, you guys are screwed, and no matter what you get for a contract, it will not be as good as what it could have been 2 years ago before the economy stuttered. 1108 didn't get it done pal... you just can't admit it, and they've cost your wallet a lot of future wages in the process while the other non-union fracs have held their own with virtually no internal turmoil.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You guys are probably right, but every so often it just gets to me, and feel like I have to respond. The problem with letting them babble their BS without a response is that the lurkers may start to believe that nonsense. At least I am sure that's what they hope anyways.

You call it BS because you are pro union and walk around with your fingers in your ears.

I speak from experience. If you don't want to understand the reasoning behind why your union has failed in getting you a decent contract while the other non-union fracs roll along without the turmoil for the last three years, please place me on ignore. I encourage you.

 

[993_Pilot]

One minute he says this in another thread:

... The company always wants to get it done, because they really do have better things to do. The company isn't stonewalling...

...and a few minutes later he says this here:

... management doesn't want to waste time in negotiations because they have better things to do ....

So which is it ? Never mind, we both already know.

 

[B19 Flyer]

One minute he says this in another thread:



...and a few minutes later he says this here:



So which is it ? Never mind, we both already know.

From an insider's perspective, one that you don't have, I'll clarify my statement for you.

Once the union is voted in, the company wants negotiations done and over with, because they have better things to do than screwing around with a bunch of pilots that want to slow the company down and create turmoil for the entire group.

Not once have I EVER seen the company stonewall negotiations. Never. The union doesn't ever move toward the middle on work rules and payroll until either the mediator, bankruptcy or a strike is looming no matter what the company offers.

They WANT the strike, the company just simply wants to get it over with.

There is no middle ground with unions, the word "negotiate" is not even in their dictionary. It is replaced by "Blackmail".