Moral sinking at FLOPS

[FR8DOG777]

1108 suckered all of you into thinking they could "close the deal" as fast as they did NJA. Three years and counting, and now there is a pilot pool out there willing and ready to fill your positions in a heartbeat if you strike to feed thier families...

Finally, something you are qualified and knowledgeable about..........SCAB

 

[Semore Butts]

Stay the course 1108!

Then you might as well keep fighting till the company fails.

That way at least you'll know that you jammed it up the a$$ of the management people that have been screwing you.

Just business "Flea 19".

Oh, and it did take us way more then 3 years to get a contract at Netjets.

Stay the course 1108!

 

[skanza]

I would venture a guess that you do not make this forum any less boring for anyone and that you induce as many yawns as B19.

As for informative, you definitely do not contribute. Well, that's subjective. But I and B19 do bring the other side of the argument. Which is essential to being informed. But still, you folks won't acknowledge its existence. Pitty. Perhaps you're talking about a worthy opposing voice with an intellect and basic powers of observation....that is rarely seen on this forum and is certainly not you or B19. If you and B19 are the only hopes for the anti-union voice, the management to whom you two suck up is in real trouble.

Suck up to? No, wrong, we're independent.

 

[brokeflyer]

whatever kid...just glad i dont have to fly with you

 

[skanza]

Allow me to point out a few errors here. The 1108 was ready and willing to negotiate, however the management lead by MS, was not. It is not the 1108 that has failed us, it is you and the rest of management. Now that MS and most of his crew are gone, we may actually have a chance of getting this done. You are correct about the timing not being so good, but that is not something any of us can control. There is no way the management could bring in a bunch of strike breaking scabs and keep the company viable, because it takes both money and time to get them trained. So that's a threat? Wow, it'll take a lot more that the handful of you on this forum to cause a disruption like that. Just keep doing your "Saftey Based" preflights, you'll get weeded out with the rest of the fat. If the training costs didn't put Flops out of business, the time frame would, from the charter costs alone. Not to mention how many owners would be anxious (or even willing) to fly with the newly hired scabs, after having to cross picket lines? So, next you would probably see a class-action lawsuit by the present Flops owners, for failing to perform to their contracts... Big $$, just to fight it + all the bad press. If that is how you see Flops succeeding, then you better dust off your resume' too!

With all this said, none of us want to see it ever go this far. We just want a contract negotiated in good faith, and done in a reasonable time frame.

Wake up, and get real. This isn't the airlines![/quote]

Right, it's not. No union needed. I don't even think the airlines need the union. Look how well that's worked for them, along with GM and the other domestic auto makers.

 

[skanza]

whatever kid...just glad i dont have to fly with you

You'll never know pal.

 

[brokeflyer]

You'll never know pal.

whatever kid.....you'd hate it....cause i write planes up when they're broke.

 

[skanza]

whatever kid.....you'd hate it....cause i write planes up when they're broke.

As you should. Just not when they're not broke (i.e. you're trying to disrupt the operation in the name of the union.)

 

[993_Pilot]

...So that's a threat? Wow, it'll take a lot more that the handful of you on this forum to cause a disruption like that. Just keep doing your "Saftey Based" preflights, you'll get weeded out with the rest of the fat...

Actually, I never made a threat, and I haven't really participated in the "Safety Based" preflight discussion. Simply an observation of how a fraction works compared to an airline. I hope it never gets this far, but when the pilots of an airline goes on strike, the company chops back the schedule as needed until they can get the scabs trained and ready. A fractional can't do that because they don't determine the schedule. We both know they would have to charter aircraft to fly their owners around, Even if only half of the pilots walked out during a strike, and the company planned on staffing to a minimum, it would still take quite a while to train another 100 to 150 pilots. Could the company even find enough charter aircraft? If they could, could they afford to? I don't think they would survive for very long. How many of the present owners would want to continually cross picket lines to fly with Flops? Could you attract any new owners with all the bad press and picket lines? These people aren't flying fractional because it is the cheap way to go. So like said before, Wake up, and get real. This isn't the airlines!

Right, it's not. No union needed. I don't even think the airlines need the union. Look how well that's worked for them, along with GM and the other domestic auto makers.

You can debate whether we need a union all you want, but the fact remains that we have one...by the choice of the majority of the pilots, I might add. Look how well the union works at Southwest. When the management works with the union instead of against it, good things come of it. Why is that so hard for you to accept that? I won't sit here at my keyboard and tell you that everything union is great, but we have already tried it the other way, and look where it got us. Are you really so narrow minded that anything union has to be bad?

 

[skanza]

Actually, I never made a threat, and I haven't really participated in the "Safety Based" preflight discussion. Simply an observation of how a fraction works compared to an airline. I hope it never gets this far, but when the pilots of an airline goes on strike, the company chops back the schedule as needed until they can get the scabs trained and ready. A fractional can't do that because they don't determine the schedule. We both know they would have to charter aircraft to fly their owners around, Even if only half of the pilots walked out during a strike, and the company planned on staffing to a minimum, it would still take quite a while to train another 100 to 150 pilots. Could the company even find enough charter aircraft? Sounds like a strike threat to me! If they could, could they afford to? I don't think they would survive for very long. How many of the present owners would want to continually cross picket lines to fly with Flops? Could you attract any new owners with all the bad press and picket lines? These people aren't flying fractional because it is the cheap way to go. So like said before, Wake up, and get real. This isn't the airlines!



You can debate whether we need a union all you want, but the fact remains that we have one...by the choice of the majority of the pilots, I might add. Look how well the union works at Southwest. When the management works with the union instead of against it, good things come of it. Why is that so hard for you to accept that? I can accept that. But like you said, "this isn't the airlines" and there fore I don't believe a union would work, or is neccessary in corperate aviation. I won't sit here at my keyboard and tell you that everything union is great, but we have already tried it the other way, and look where it got us. Are you really so narrow minded that anything union has to be bad? No, in fact a despise the narrow minded approach. But a lot of things I've seen out of a union are bad.

xoxox

 

[B19 Flyer]

Actually, I never made a threat, and I haven't really participated in the "Safety Based" preflight discussion. Simply an observation of how a fraction works compared to an airline. I hope it never gets this far, but when the pilots of an airline goes on strike, the company chops back the schedule as needed until they can get the scabs trained and ready. A fractional can't do that because they don't determine the schedule. We both know they would have to charter aircraft to fly their owners around, Even if only half of the pilots walked out during a strike, and the company planned on staffing to a minimum, it would still take quite a while to train another 100 to 150 pilots. Could the company even find enough charter aircraft? If they could, could they afford to? I don't think they would survive for very long. How many of the present owners would want to continually cross picket lines to fly with Flops? Could you attract any new owners with all the bad press and picket lines? These people aren't flying fractional because it is the cheap way to go. So like said before, Wake up, and get real. This isn't the airlines!



You can debate whether we need a union all you want, but the fact remains that we have one...by the choice of the majority of the pilots, I might add. Look how well the union works at Southwest. When the management works with the union instead of against it, good things come of it. Why is that so hard for you to accept that? I won't sit here at my keyboard and tell you that everything union is great, but we have already tried it the other way, and look where it got us. Are you really so narrow minded that anything union has to be bad?

A strike has the same effect on a fractional as well as a scheduled carrier. They cripple the company and cost the carrier revenue.

Next, don't use and/or compare the SWA contract with anything in the industry. It was a ten year deal based on profit sharing, the only one like it. and I can assure you that it won't be repeated as they new members of the union are already showing a leaning toward a regular contract so they can get their money up front rather than through profit sharing. It was indeed a smart contract from both points of view.

It's clear that you don't see the overall effect a union has on the COMPANY as a complete entity.
You think a union is there to pad your paycheck. There is nothing a union will add if the same people involved in the union put the same effort into the company as management.

Why is it that the exact same people that are "effective" in a union, are so ineffective outside of a union working for the same company?

 

[993_Pilot]

Even if only half of the pilots walked out during a strike, and the company planned on staffing to a minimum, it would still take quite a while to train another 100 to 150 pilots. Could the company even find enough charter aircraft? If they could, could they afford to? I don't think they would survive for very long.

Sounds like a strike threat to me!

Please don't accuse me of making threats. If you read it again, I simply put forth a hypothetical situation, asked a few questions and gave my thoughts. This was a response to B19's previous statement, quoted below:

...Three years and counting, and now there is a pilot pool out there willing and ready to fill your positions in a heartbeat if you strike to feed thier families...

...When the management works with the union instead of against it, good things come of it. Why is that so hard for you to accept that? I can accept that. But like you said, "this isn't the airlines" and there fore I don't believe a union would work, or is neccessary in corperate aviation...

So you're saying that not having a union worked for us? If it had, there wouldn't be a union.

...Are you really so narrow minded that anything union has to be bad? No, in fact a despise the narrow minded approach. But a lot of things I've seen out of a union are bad...

And a lot of things can be good too! We've already tried it your way, now we're trying the union way.

 

[993_Pilot]

A strike has the same effect on a fractional as well as a scheduled carrier. They cripple the company and cost the carrier revenue.

Exactly. Probably even more so with a fractional operation than an airline. That's why I hope it never comes to that. If the management negotiates in good faith, it never will.

Next, don't use and/or compare the SWA contract with anything in the industry. It was a ten year deal based on profit sharing, the only one like it. and I can assure you that it won't be repeated as they new members of the union are already showing a leaning toward a regular contract so they can get their money up front rather than through profit sharing. It was indeed a smart contract from both points of view.

Just because it was a unique contract doesn't mean it can't or won't be repeated. There are all kinds of ways to write a contract, and it can be a win/win for everyone. If you are who everyone here seems to think you are, then you have the right person's ear. Why don't you use some of your influence to make it more "Southwest like". I would love to see the southwest spirit, that the majority of their employees have, invade Flops, but that won't happen until the Flops employees feel that they are being treated fairly.

It's clear that you don't see the overall effect a union has on the COMPANY as a complete entity.
You think a union is there to pad your paycheck. There is nothing a union will add if the same people involved in the union put the same effort into the company as management.

I do understand the overall effect that the union has on a company, and in a perfect world, we wouldn't need the union. Although I do want better pay as a part of the contract, that actually is only a small portion of it. What I really want is work rules that can't continually changed to suit management any time they choose. All the management has done for the last several years is taketh away while they throw us a few table scraps here and there.

There is nothing a union will add if the same people involved in the union put the same effort into the company as management.

Wrong, it puts everything in writing and sets forth rules that both sides have to live by. Would the management do that for us without a union? Of course not! does it make it harder for the company to operate, you bet. Just remember that the management created the need for the union, not the pilots. The SFO program was a perfect example of a carrot thrown out that very few pilots ever even understood how to achieve. It was a good concept, but it was poorly executed. Consequentially, everyone felt like it was nothing more than a "good ol' boy club". It needed to have clear objectives, potentially obtainable by all, not subjective interviews with vague objectives that no one seemed to understand. The legs/day productivity bonus was another ill conceived program. The only influence the pilots had over their schedule was to fly broken aircraft, or accept unrealistically scheduled duty days. I suspect it was designed that way, but even if it wasn't, do we really want to put that perception out there? The fly right/fuel one is much better, but still has a few problems. The biggest, of course, is that the amount of incentive has to be more than a half days wage every three months for it to actually be much of an incentive.

Why is it that the exact same people that are "effective" in a union, are so ineffective outside of a union working for the same company?

Simple, motivation. To use your dog analogy, You can only kick a dog so many time before he'll get up and bite you. It you ignore him and feed him just enough to stay alive, he'll lay around sleeping all day. However, if you give him frequent treats, he'll be your best friend.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Waste of time

933, most of us long ago came to the realization that any exchange with B19 was a complete waste of time and put him on ignore. I believe that skanza also falls in this same category although I have not put him on ignore yet. Its apparent that both of these guys are management and no mater how much you beat them over the head with the obvious truth they will never see your point.

 

[Frac Cap]

I agree, don't encourage him by engaging him in a debate. Just ignore him.