Mesaba Big Announcement on Friday

[xjcaptain]

Guitarman: As far as the previously offerd flow through, that is basically B.S. It's amazing when things were going very well for mainline they wouldn't acknowlege the airlinks as a red-headed stepchild. But now....wait a minute, all those RJ's don't look quite so bad when a few guys are on furlough so maybe we all should be good ALPA brothers again. I'm just waiting to be told we need to have "EXPERIENCED" mainline pilots in the left seat of these "BIG" RJ'S. From looking at your profile, and knowing many furloughed NWA guys, I'm guessing most of our FO's probably have more time and experience than most of the furloughed NWA pilots. You made your choice to go to mainline with a relativly small amount of experience, I'm glad you had the opportunity, but please don't think you need to lecture us lowly regional pilots about how things are. We've probably been long it longer than you have.

 

[saabservant]

guitarman:

Your ideas are welcome to the majority of us at xj, especially coming from a junior furloughed nwa pilot. Don't be too discouraged by the attitudes of a few. Any flow-through that recognizes seniority and the sacrifices made by both pilot groups to attain it is welcome.
Everyone here is looking for growth, of course, but a lot of us realize it would be insane for the mainline to give up another category of aircraft. The cynic in me tells me that will happen, though, as soon as mainline mgmt. can threaten pay and pensions. History backs me up.
The recent deal to allow a third airlink is our most recent example.
I just don't see our current alpa leadership willing to fight to protect the value of all pilot careers, especially within one brand.
I know the option to quickly bring in feed for a new city/hub is sound business, but blocking us from taking that on for nwa in favor of a third carrier that easily could be used as a whipsaw against others, INCLUDING mainline, was weak.

We all need to remember, who is the real enemy? It's not the guy/gal in that other airplane...

By the way, in regards to any deal we get to vote on, it won't be just the fo's vs. capts. The msa mec successfully scared pilots in both seats into voting yes on our TA last year. I flew with a number of fo's who voted for it, and I know many junior captains did too.
The lesson: when your leadership is authorized/told how to respond to a strike deadline with no deal close, maybe you need to put a gun to their heads to make sure they do...

 

[Guitarman]

XJ, I have been flying jets since 91, so I don't think many of your FO's have been flying longer than I. That being said, it just doesn't matter!

Go back and read the posts. The opinion was that the regionals were going to get the 70 seat flying, and do it cheaper. Our contract is clear in that anything over the 50 seat level is owned by NWA. Barring bankruptcy they can't take that from us. We aren't going to give that up unless it were to come with huge improvements in other areas. Some talk was to have mainline bid them, and allow the regionals to fill seats not used by mainline pilots. That would be a tough solution to implement. Many other scenarios have been floated around, but in the end they all involve NWA pilots due to the scope.

I know scope is a bad word around here, but when you move up to NWA, AA, DAl, SWA, you will feel much differently. A coordinated, equitable flow through would allow you to plan your careers better, and also help to maintain decent working conditions at all our companies. I was against the flow-through when I was first hired, but I had many wise old captains explain to me that management would continue to divide and conquer unless we opened the umbrella for all NWA pilots.

As to wanting to flow back now that we have people on the street, you are missing one important point: We own the 70 seat flying. We aren't trying to come take your seats, we are negotiating for a new aircraft that our contract says we will fly. How are you somehow entitled to the 70 seat aircraft? A flow through would allow you to flow up to the 70 seat and beyond. Now you are capped at 50, or the 69 seat Avro at Mesaba (nice plane, btw). I don't advocate a mass flow back kicking you out of seats, and neither is our union. In fact, our union hasn't approaced the company to flow back any of our furloughed guys. They allowed some to interview for positions without resigning seniority, but that is it. The flow through isn't even on the table for us. I think it should be, but the fact is the majority of the pilots feel it isn't worth the negotiating capital it would take to get it. Since they are already at NWA, they don't feel it is necessary to do so.

I have another 25 years to fly for NWA, and feel that absent a flow through the company will continue to fragment the pilot groups to the detriment of everyone. I don't know why you see fit to make personal attacks, but if you have something germane to the discussion, let's hear it. If all you want to do is attack me because I went straight from the USAF to NWA, then I don't see the utility in responding. JB

 

[JohnDoe]

Guitarman,

Trust me, you are wasting your time here........

 

[xjcaptain]

My post was not meant to be a person attack. But it may suprise you that many people here have been flying for a long time prior to '91. Like you said it doesn't matter...But then again does it? I am not taking anything from your service to our country, but it does provide for a different perspective. We all worked long and hard to get to where we are at and sacraficed different things. I find it very condensending that many at mainline take if for granted that we are desperate to move to mainline. The previous years have shown that life at the majors isn't all it's cracked up to be. The narrowing of the wage gap, the loss of pensions, and not to mention the loss of lifestyle to start again at the bottom of another list. I have many close friends that did move to mainline and are now furloughed/out of aviation forever. You may have hit on something without even realizing it. I think we both can agree that NWA wants 70 seaters. Obviously they want them to be flown for as cheaply as possible. NWA ALPA has ver tight scope on the issue. Thats fine we all look out for our own (or are we all ALPA brothers...I forget). But you mentioned bankruptsy. How much would NWA managment stand to gain in employee concessions if that were to happen. Bye-Bye contract and scope. I certainly do not want to see that happen, but if they could press hard on an issue that the pilots are not willing to work on....We'll we can see where that can lead. It may all be an effort by mgmt to get out from under the contract. That is something we certainly do not want to see happen.

 

[xjlifer]

It is obvious from my post count I do not post here very much. Having said that I would like to say managment types love to read what they can see is happening here. That is the infighting between pilot groups. I think what NU and Guitarman have said makes sense and is well thought out. The attack mentality that some feel..(and I am an xj pilot) is becouse of the situation that we find ourselves in.

The idea that anyone would come to either XJ or 9E or any regional and want to stay.....well lets just say that was certainly not in my plans but here I am. However since that is the case now, there is no doubt I will have a different mind set about what is best for my future that a NWA guy. The key is to find a workable situation that will keep all pilots in mind. That proccess is ongoing and is best served when the groups can communicate. Not when the mud starts to fly.

 

[Guitarman]

You are correct that managment would gain in bankruptcy, but since NWA is mostly privately held, the main investors would lose the most. Al and Gary own huge blocks of stock, and most of the BOD would lose big time in bankruptcy. I don't see that happening any time soon. I don't know whether you want to go to the mainline or not, but either way the point is moot. Why run out and say you'll fly for less if you are going to make a career at the regionals? I want to see the whole NWA family get pay and benefits commensurate with the level of skill and training it takes to do the job. Maybe there is a place for the $22,000 FO straight out of UND or Embry, but overall I think the pay at the regionals should be better, considering the hours and experience necessary. I would like to see it be a place where you can have a good career. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. JB

 

[DoinTime]

Guitarman,

You seem to be arguing with the position of one or two authors on this thread. Once you have been around long enough you'll realize that there will always be that person that posts a viewpoint from way out in left field. This is what we like to call "flame bait" here on the message board. Its sole purpose is to get guys that don't know any better, like yourself, all wound up.

Very few regional pilots support the abolition of mainline scope but certain economic realities do exist in this world. I'd like to think that NWALPA will stand firm on this issue but industry parody will eventually take its toll. Delta just inked a deal that will eventually allow over 120 70-seat aircraft to be contracted out. United is adding bigger RJ's too but the real hard one to deal with is the new USAir deal. If they survive a substantial amount of their narrow body fleet will be replaced by non-mailine contract workers. How does NW plan to compete in this upcoming market place? These are the realities that your MEC is facing but your pilot group alone can't take cuts deep enough to make small airplanes fly profitably under your certificate.

Another issue that NWALPA has to deal with is that if they do agree to a "regional" contract and payscales for a new fleet type (the EMB-170/190 for example) on the mainline certificate this new fleet type will ultimately be used to replace a portion, if not most, of the current DC-9 fleet. This is what junior guys, like you guitar, should be worried about. Instead of going back to NW to sit right seat in the DC-9 at $80+/hour, you'll go back to the right seat of an EMB 170 at $30/hour and probably be stuck there for a considerable amount of time as the DC-9 fleet erodes.

Should the NWMEC allow additional 70 seaters to be outsourced they will be in a position to limit the size and deployment of this new fleet. This strategy will allow NW to bring a competitively priced fleet type to the market but not allow them to grow this fleet in a larger proportion than necessary. This will ultimately protect mainline jobs as NW will be forced to find a comparable replacement to the DC-9 and not just rely on cheap labor and small planes to fill the gap.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

 

[mjs]

Well, there will be 10 CRJ's left when Pinnacle receives their deliveries per our service contract with NW. Something more feasible would be Mesaba's purchase of Chicago Express, transfer the remaining Saabs to the Mesaba operation and putting the CRJ on that certificate. Then they could get in on the additional 40 50-seaters that may become available. /QUOTE]


How would this be possible? NWA owns all the planes. They decide where they fly. They can't be used to fly anything BUT NWA routes. The TA for a 3rd partner included, if I am not wrong, that no funding of the planes could come from NWA. A third airlink partner would have to be totally owned and operated by another company w/out using any NWA $ or capital. In other words, be able to add more routes and market share w/out causing NWA to have to go deeper into debt. Any money available for aircraft purchase would be invested in mainline. I think the thought was if someone went under, they could easily pick up a partner that would be beneficial to all. It would help save jobs at the airlink and could add routes and capacity w/out significant investment.

 

[dondk]

there are 10 left in the PNCL order.. There are about 60-65 (out of 170 options) that have been converted but NOT built yet.

PNCL has 1 more 44 seat aircraft remaining (according to bombardier). The remaining aircraft should be 50 seat that have have not been built yet (again according to bombardier)

Could the 44's go to XJ? why not? Could XJ get 70 seat Q400's? why not? that is beneath the scope of NWA MEC. Whould NWA do that to the NWA MEC? It is not below them, that is for sure.

Does NWA want 70 seaters? Sure.. With fuel prices rising the TP's are startining to look real good once again.

For my .02 and it means nothing.. the new B gates and C concourse gates in DTW have markings for -700's. To my knowledge when ASA or CMR move to the gates they will only bring 200's.

AT one point I do believe XJ had DHC-8's on the property, can an XJ guy state how long it would take to get that program back up and running?


XJ, PNCL, and Champion.. I don't know the longevity of Champion guys, but XJ has more guys with much longer seniority that PNCL has. A merge would do very little to all the new guys PNCL has hired recently, they would wait years upon years to make a dent in a combined seniority list for any 70 seat flying (if that would happen).

Regardless of the announcement, I am happy for my XJ brothers and sisters that it appears good things art heading thier way, it is about time.

 

[mjs]

You need to think of NWA as one big team including 9E and XJ. The person who can do the job most efficient should get the job. In that regard XJ and 9E should fly the 90 and 70 and 50 seaters. .

The problem with this is that NWA would have to come up with some serious cash to fund these planes while asking for concessions from their employees. I don't see that happening. The contracts w/ XJ and 9E would have to be renegotiated with NWA b/c I think they currently require them to get their planes through NWA. The solution that is best for NWA employees is to see a third airlink that provides their own planes.

And when everything is said and done, NWA employees are going to do what is best for NWA. It's their future and pensions that are on the line. They work in a partnership w/ XJ and 9E. The benefits although indirectly linked to NWA are not tied to NWA. Their benefits and wages are determined by those at the top of their company and is dependant on the deals each company has negotiated w/ NWA and the profit margins they would like to see for their stock holders. The NWA employee group is not going to change but although it is not likely, it is possible that neither XJ or 9E could remain an airlink partner w/ NWA in the years to come.

Some hypothetical questions, what if the pilots negotiated into their contracts that all flying had to be done by XJ and 9E? What would then happen if either of them refused to sign the contract and demanded to be paid much more? Would NWA be forced to pay substantial increases b/c the pilots had limited them in choice of partners? Would employees have to take more concessions to pay for this? What if the contract was dissolved? Could a totally different carrier then be brought in to fly any type they wanted b/c it was not in mainline's ta?

 

[DoinTime]

How would this be possible? NWA owns all the planes. They decide where they fly. They can't be used to fly anything BUT NWA routes. The TA for a 3rd partner included, if I am not wrong, that no funding of the planes could come from NWA. A third airlink partner would have to be totally owned and operated by another company w/out using any NWA $ or capital. In other words, be able to add more routes and market share w/out causing NWA to have to go deeper into debt. Any money available for aircraft purchase would be invested in mainline. I think the thought was if someone went under, they could easily pick up a partner that would be beneficial to all. It would help save jobs at the airlink and could add routes and capacity w/out significant investment.

If MAIR purchased, or created, a subsidiary with an operating certificate they would be free from the contractual language that restricts the operation of the additional 50-seaters as long as they purchased the airplanes themselves. Only Mesaba/Pinnacle Airlines and other affiliates of NWA are bared from operating these planes. MAIR holdings nor Pinnacle Holdings are owned by NW.

Pinnacle Holdings is nearing completion of a mirror image copy of the Pinnacle Airlines certificate presumable to try to capture this additional NWA flying or for flying opportunities with other carriers. Now that PNCL is free from debt to NWAC they may even be able to acccess the capital to finance the planes.

One thing is for certain neither 9E or XJ will have a chance at this, or any other, flying unless they have a readily accessible operating certificate.

 

[DoinTime]

Could the 44's go to XJ? why not? Could XJ get 70 seat Q400's? why not? that is beneath the scope of NWA MEC. Whould NWA do that to the NWA MEC? It is not below them, that is for sure.

NWALPA has all flying (regardless of propulsion) above 60 seats scoped.

 

[Dodge]

It would be real interesting to see a NW guy in a TP again. Or for that matter, the first time ever. Even though propulsion doesn't matter above 60 seats, those cats aren't going to be caught dead in a prop. What would they tell their guard buddies?

Big Sky can fly 70 seaters for another brand, if Mesaba pilots fly 'em. NWA ALPA didn't scope MAIR out there. Just a thought.

 

[Guitarman]

What do you mean, I loved the TP! The King Air rocked!

 

[Humty72]

..........

 

[DetoXJ]

Guys, this is so obvious. It's NW70 on it's way. Ready or not here it comes.

 

[Terry Hunter]

How about AVRO's going to NWA with 85 seats, in exchange XJ getting x no. of 70 seat airplanes....

 

[DetoXJ]

NWA probably makes more money off a 69 seat Avro than they would an 85 seat Avro operated by mainline. With an 85 seat Avro they have NO 1st class seats to sell and they are paying NWA crews, rampies, mx, skeds, dispatchers, ect. ect. They are better off selling 16 1st class seats and 53 coach and paying XJ rates.

 

[Dodge]

They are better off selling 53 coach seats and giving away 16 first class seats (any deadbeat can upgrade these days) and paying us to fly them.

1 NWA FA costs about 10-15 bucks more per hour than a XJ FO.