Look before you leap, NJASAP!

[realityman]

MM,

You're absolutely correct. Negotiations aren't done in a vacuum. And the pro or anti-unionism in government can make a real difference.

However, much thinking inside the unions has become stagnant. In other words, you don't see much thinking outside the box. Once you get outside the box, much can be achieved without permission from the government or anyone else.

For example, while some have decried it as unethical, doing an extra thorough preflight and not flying until you and the plane are 100% legal is acceptable. It's not a work action like a sick-out. It's doing your job to the best of your ability. Who in government or even a company will step up and tell you to quit writing things up that are wrong with the planes? Now, I do agree COMPLETELY that no one should EVER be sabotaging an aircraft! It's illegal, potentially dangerous, and could cost you your career (kind of the opposite of what you're trying to achieve). But nothing stops you from learning more about the plane you fly and really understanding what needs to be right to be both safe AND legal.

Do nothing illegal, either for or against the company.

It's not a an illegal work action for a union to help educate its members further on the dangers of fatigue and how to recognize it. And if the number of fatigue calls goes up because of this education, that's just the way it is to be safe.

Do nothing illegal, either for or against the company.

Do you know what happens to cognitive ability when your blood sugar levels drop too low? For a graphic demonstration of it, just read B19's posts. That guy must be STARVING all the time! So you've been on duty for 6 hours, haven't had food, and you're supposed to fly a three hour leg without food? The SAFE thing to do is get some food first.

In other words, you don't need a pro-labor administration to effect change or put the pressure on. You don't need to strike or even contemplate an illegal work action. Heck, what do the FAR's say about O2 use? If people were to simply FOLLOW THE RULES THAT ALREADY EXIST, how often would planes need to have the O2 serviced?

There are LOTS of creative ways to, shall we say, 'encourage' negotiations along without stepping over the line. And without any government agency's permission.

 

[Mooneymite]

Mooneymite: Hypothetically, what if NJASAP becomes the bargaining unit for NJA pilots. If they were to affiliate with the AFL-CIO (which the Teamsters disaffiliated themselves with not long ago), would that change your view on its influence on the national (and international) level?

My concern is that the Teamsters are using their "voice in Washington" -- and our money -- to work against us on key issues like user fees. To me, that seems like it would be counterproductive to our interests as fractional pilots.

Good question.

I would feel good about the change at NetJets if this were a change in affiliation. I do not like NJASAP as it is presently...an in-house, stand alone union.

The ALPA is affiliated with the AFL-CIO; seems to work for it. I have no idea how/if there would be any sentiment for NJASAP to send any money out of house ($3000 a day!!!! is the battle cry.). Because NJASAP is heralding the idea of keeping our own money, I doubt NJASAP could immediately change directions and send the money out again. I think it would be money well spent, though we won't see that money spent "in our own house".

I started this discussion about my fears of labor fragmentation, but most of the posts have concerned themselves about how this is good for the NetJets pilots or why some particular labor organization sucks. We need to think beyond parochialism. That's why I carried this discussion to this forum and not the NJASAP board. Labor dissolution is affecting all labor, not just NJA pilots.

I am concerned about the long-term dissolution of labor. (B-19 notwithstanding:bomb: ) Labor does have a long history of in-fighting. APA walked out of the ALPA, AFL-CIO has had its in-house squabbles and now 1108 is pulling out of the IBT. History is full of labor fighting labor. Such is the nature of organizations.

Through all the internecine fighting we must all remember that oppressive management is the enemy....not our fellow laborers. Our fellow laborers may be competitors for the labor buck, but we need to keep the "enemy" in our sights. We need an effective coalition that can match big business in political clout.

We love to take pot shots at IBT, AFL-CIO, the ALPA, and other labor organizations which fall short in one area or another. We must be mindful of areas that need improvement; however, labor must stick together, or it will (continue to) be picked apart.

 

[Mooneymite]

...........

In other words, you don't need a pro-labor administration to effect change or put the pressure on. You don't need to strike or even contemplate an illegal work action. Heck, what do the FAR's say about O2 use? If people were to simply FOLLOW THE RULES THAT ALREADY EXIST, how often would planes need to have the O2 serviced?

..................

Realtyman, what I fear is that as labor becomes fragmented and loses the political power it enjoyed in the past, the rules that are so favorable to the tactics you mention will be changed.

The environment today is still favorable to labor, but it is the result of years of lobbying by organized labor. These rules can, and will, all be changed as big business takes advantage of our weakness.

 

[realityman]

MM,

You make good points, but by the very nature of different professions, it'd be almost impossible to have a large coalition represent all of labor to Washington.

Yes, a common thread amongst ALL labor is the desire for a good wage and good benefits, not to mention job protections such as protection from outsourcing.

Those are the basics.

But there's quite a bit more involved than basics. How does a cohesive national labor organization lobby in Washington if it is not only representing airlines, but charter, fractionals, and all the other types of operations that make money from flying? Airline workers see it in their best interests to force private avaition out, through user fees and maybe more restrictions on the use of ATC services. Obviously charters, fractionals, and the others would prefer to not see user fees and ATC restrictions become a reality.

So how does a major national labor coalition reconcile this? And whose interests are more important to represent? Should the coalition put more time and effort into lobbying for better working rules and conditions for truckers, or do pilot issues take precedence? What about dock workers? Where do they fall in the national scope?

Labor working together for the BASICS is great! But beyond that, each individual type of organized labor is really going to have to come up with their own plans to represent themselves on the national level. At first it may sound like a weaker position, but if you try to have one very large, 'powerful' coalition trying to represent everyone's interests at the national level, I sincereley believe you'll see a whole lot more infighting than you do now.

NJW said it best, we are trying to be an independant union, not an isolated one.

 

[Mooneymite]

MM,

You make good points, but by the very nature of different professions, it'd be almost impossible to have a large coalition represent all of labor to Washington.

Yes, a common thread amongst ALL labor is the desire for a good wage and good benefits, not to mention job protections such as protection from outsourcing.

Those are the basics.

But there's quite a bit more involved than basics. How does a cohesive national labor organization lobby in Washington if it is not only representing airlines, but charter, fractionals, and all the other types of operations that make money from flying? Airline workers see it in their best interests to force private avaition out, through user fees and maybe more restrictions on the use of ATC services. Obviously charters, fractionals, and the others would prefer to not see user fees and ATC restrictions become a reality.

So how does a major national labor coalition reconcile this? And whose interests are more important to represent? Should the coalition put more time and effort into lobbying for better working rules and conditions for truckers, or do pilot issues take precedence? What about dock workers? Where do they fall in the national scope?

Labor working together for the BASICS is great! But beyond that, each individual type of organized labor is really going to have to come up with their own plans to represent themselves on the national level. At first it may sound like a weaker position, but if you try to have one very large, 'powerful' coalition trying to represent everyone's interests at the national level, I sincereley believe you'll see a whole lot more infighting than you do now.

NJW said it best, we are trying to be an independant union, not an isolated one.

And the BASICS are exactly what I am worried about. As organized labor loses its punch, the very bedrock of our pro-labor laws will be gutted and laid waste. Organized labor got these laws passed when it was strong. Today, organized labor is fighting to keep them from being changed. Tomorrow it may not be strong enough to keep from going backwards.

It's great to be a nice, cozy in-house union and enjoy a contract protected by labor laws passed by our predecessors. But those laws are not written in stone. The forces opposed to labor are ready to abolish those laws and policies that we take for granted.

There are storm clouds on the horizon. This bad weather is not local in nature...it is global.

 

[flyjetspeed]

Njasap

In keeping with the subject title of this thread it seems to me that the idea of any union purporting to speak for an entire industry, or even a segment of one, is self serving at best. As Boston's Tip O'Neill used to say "All politics is local." Every collective bargaining unit engages in negotiations to obtain the best deal for its own constituency and no other. Sometimes this will result in collateral effects outside the “local” participants and NJW’s “rising tide” comes in, as it has at CS, but this is only incidental.
Each group must deal with a set of completely unique circumstances, i.e. different management, different profit margins, different scale of operations, different stakeholders, etc. For one organization, weather it be IBT, ALPA, AFL-CIO, or any other, to represent each group equally is simply not possible. The NJA pilots group, by itself, has made its best deal with NetJets Inc. and the Flight Options pilot group is at liberty to do the same. Quite honestly, as Japan has shown us, business is war. Our company is actively engaged in taking as many of Flight Options customers, employees, and profits away from them as possible, logically to the point that Flight Options is eliminated as a competitor. So be it and solidarity be damned. I believe the NJA pilots are making the right move in separating from the IBT because the Teamster's have no interest in them other than their dues. Any attempt to rejoin the Flight Options pilots in a common union after the split with IBT would be a disservice to both groups. Only vested self interest can produce the kind of success achieved at NJA in negotiating a contract at Flight Options and it is the Flight Options pilots to win or lose that struggle. Just my .02

 

[Fozzy]

Very simply, you earn what you negotiate.

Here it is folks. The truth that management will never want you to hear. This is the key to business. You will never get what you deserve, you must negotiate. Nothing is personal, it is all business. No emotion, just ice in your veins.

For those in the cheap seats.
Do you get that new car for the price you deserve? The house? Just think of the poor people selling it, and the agent getting a smaller commission when you negotiate that price to your advantage! :bawling: This is b19's new angle of the week. Feel sorry for all those innocent people. More FUD. We are all adults in the real world struggling for ours.
You get nothing for free and life is not easy. You will always have to fight for yours. Get used to it.

Sorry for encouraging the hijack of this post.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Here it is folks. The truth that management will never want you to hear. This is the key to business. You will never get what you deserve, you must negotiate. Nothing is personal, it is all business. No emotion, just ice in your veins.

For those in the cheap seats.
Do you get that new car for the price you deserve? The house? Just think of the poor people selling it, and the agent getting a smaller commission when you negotiate that price to your advantage! :bawling: This is b19's new angle of the week. Feel sorry for all those innocent people. More FUD. We are all adults in the real world struggling for ours.
You get nothing for free and life is not easy. You will always have to fight for yours. Get used to it.

Sorry for encouraging the hijack of this post.

Yes, we are all adults.

However, I have responsibility for my career and found that working in a non-union environment is much more lucrative and has more peace of mind that working in a union environment.

Nobody speaks for me, nobody negotiates for me and no union will ever force me to get furloughed or take a pay cut ever again.

Fozzy, you ain't got the nuts to think on your own, it's why you need a union to speak and think for you.

 

[netjetwife]

Good reminder, Foz. I'd like to add that fair negotiations, seen in good faith bargaining and especially in IBB (Interest Based Bargaining), are grounded in reality. Serious home buyers don't expect to get a view property for the same price as one without; informed car buyers know that fancy bells and whistles add to the cost; and upper management should likewise realize that experienced pilots command wages commiserate with their professional skills and responsibility for lives. Realistically and fairly the FLOPS can't expect to get pilots to fly the plane for wages in line with those who just clean the plane. That smacks of exploitation, not negotiation, and managers wanting to operate that way need to get the boot.

As to the latest with NJASAP, today is a big day for setting the future direction of the NJ pilots and the Options pilots. Hopefully the NJASAP leaders are seeing the IBB-type of negotiations with the IBT that they wanted all along. If the Teamsters truly care about helping workers they will make sure that both pilotgroups are provided with the resources they need to succeed. NJASAP is looking for a fair division of the assets accumulated from the NJ pilots' dues. There is no reason this can't be a win-win situation for NJ and Ops pilots. Let's all keep our fingers crossed that fairness and professionalism prevail at the bargaining table in CMH. Good luck to all involved. NJW

 

[B19 Flyer]

That smacks of exploitation, not negotiation, and managers wanting to operate that way need to get the boot.

Actually, it smacks of hijacking the company by a union so that the MEC line their pockets with cash.

NJW has stated that pilots need to WIN A CONTRACT.

I have said that pilots need to negotiate, not win, a contract.

It is one of many disgusting attitudes such as her words below that shows her disrespect to those in the industry.

 

[Grizz]

I have no idea how/if there would be any sentiment for NJASAP to send any money out of house ($3000 a day!!!! is the battle cry.). Because NJASAP is heralding the idea of keeping our own money, I doubt NJASAP could immediately change directions and send the money out again.

Actually Mooney,

We object to sending that money out of our local with no reasonable return on investment. We do want to help fund a global trade organization that can accomplish tasks that are beneficial to labor in general and our segment of the aviation industry in particular. I also don't think any of us is opposed to joining a labor organization that would help promote a healthy labor agenda while using our monies wisely for that purpose.

Speaking just for myself, I think joining the AFL-CIO would be a smart move. That being said, I think that issue must be left to the full Executive Board to decide after we hold our first elections once we become the representational body for NetJets pilots.

 

[Mooneymite]

Actually Mooney,

We object to sending that money out of our local with no reasonable return on investment. We do want to help fund a global trade organization that can accomplish tasks that are beneficial to labor in general and our segment of the aviation industry in particular. I also don't think any of us is opposed to joining a labor organization that would help promote a healthy labor agenda while using our monies wisely for that purpose.

Speaking just for myself, I think joining the AFL-CIO would be a smart move. That being said, I think that issue must be left to the full Executive Board to decide after we hold our first elections once we become the representational body for NetJets pilots.

So, was it necessary to go independent to change affiliation? Obviously, I think NJASAP is making a huge mistake long term.

After convincing the membership of the 'economy' of going independent, it will be a hard sell to convince the membership that we need to support more than our own parochial interests. Especially if it is mentioned that it "costs" $3000/day!

I've watched for years the independent unions chortle about the benefits of independence, while no one mentions the overall deleterious effect on the labor/management balance in courts and legislatures. The overall political environment we labor in is much more important, in the long run, than any local victories.

It's been said before: we hang together, or we hang separately.

 

[netjetwife]

MM, your tone suggests the NJASAP leaders had to twist arms to get pilots to send in their cards. Nothing could be further from the truth. They put up a website with a message board, but had there been no interest, it would have seen little traffic. Instead, the NJA side of the 1108 board is now a ghost town. True, NJASAP passed out cards, but they couldn't force pilots to sign them and mail them in. The fact that the cards poured in along with voluntary donations to help gain independence is proof that the vast majority of the pilotgroup views their situation the same way NJASAP leaders do. No "convincing" was necessary. The facts speak for themselves.

You keep talking as if NJASAP will be an isolated Union. That is not their intention. I have pointed out before that there will be a VP of Industry Affairs to network with other organizations and provide a voice for frac pilots. NJASAP already has more expertise about frac flying and more motivation to speak up than the Teamsters do. This summer they'll obtain the funds that will enable them to promote the industry and form alliances with other like-minded groups.

For the record, it must be noted that the Options pilots are unionized and in contract negotiations because of help they got from NJA pilots. (A member of the Organizing Committee is now an NJASAP Trustee). The Teamsters aren't out there organizing frac pilots, and as for the political climate, they worked against us on the user fees. Over 2000 NJ pilots have already declared their preference for NJASAP and the cards and donations are still coming in. Apparently, they all view it as an opportunity to move on to bigger and better things.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I have pointed out before that there will be a VP of Industry Affairs to network with other organizations and provide a voice for frac pilots.

She is not an employee of NJ, has no affiliation with the union, and personally is not involved in the industry.

Her husband is one of the leaders of NJASAP and she stands to personally gain financially from his affiliation.

It appears as though she is privy to union business that she shouldn't be and that should concern every union member on this board.

It was she that embarrassed all union members at NJ with the statement:

 

[gunfyter]

This message is hidden because B19 Flyer is on your ignore list.

I can't hear you! Speak louder. Step closer to the microphone.

This is even better than my UflyMike/Bose QC2 setup at noise elimination.

ahhhh..... peace and quiet.