Look before you leap, NJASAP!

[Guitar Guy]

This message is hidden because B19 Flyer is on your ignore list.

I can't hear you! Speak louder. Step closer to the microphone.

This is even better than my UflyMike/Bose QC2 setup at noise elimination.

ahhhh..... peace and quiet.

Ain't it a beautiful thing?

 

[Helmsalee]

B who?

 

[Grizz]

So, was it necessary to go independent to change affiliation? Obviously, I think NJASAP is making a huge mistake long term.

After convincing the membership of the 'economy' of going independent, it will be a hard sell to convince the membership that we need to support more than our own parochial interests. Especially if it is mentioned that it "costs" $3000/day!

I've watched for years the independent unions chortle about the benefits of independence, while no one mentions the overall deleterious effect on the labor/management balance in courts and legislatures. The overall political environment we labor in is much more important, in the long run, than any local victories.

It's been said before: we hang together, or we hang separately.

I'm assuming by your question and background, you are thinking ALPA would have been a better choice. Unfortunately, that is completely incorrect. Their model is broken worse than the IBT Airline Division and a lot of their interests are directly counter to the interests of fractional pilots. The new head of ALPA, John Prater is doing his best to turn things around over there. He is, however, battling a huge problem that has a lot of inertia. I sincerely hope for our profession's sake he is successful.

That being said, I think right now we can have joint cooperation on issues important to labor overall or pilots specifically. He and Bill have discussed issues many times and that will continue under our leadership.

MM - I'm done discussing this with you as an anonymous voice. I find this whole message board tedious with the screen names. If someone wants to express something, they should have the stones to say it clearly in their own name.

You know where to get my phone number. If you want to debate, call me and let me know who you are. I'll be glad to listen to your points, answer those I can, and consider the ones I can't. Until that time, it's just background noise as we move forward.

 

[CA1900]

Ain't it a beautiful thing?

It's fantastic.

 

[Mooneymite]

I'm assuming by your question and background, you are thinking ALPA would have been a better choice. Unfortunately, that is completely incorrect. Their model is broken worse than the IBT Airline Division and a lot of their interests are directly counter to the interests of fractional pilots. The new head of ALPA, Don Prater is doing his best to turn things around over there. He is, however, battling a huge problem that has a lot of inertia. I sincerely hope for our profession's sake he is successful.

That being said, I think right now we can have joint cooperation on issues important to labor overall or pilots specifically. He and Bill have discussed issues many times and that will continue under our leadership.

MM - I'm done discussing this with you as an anonymous voice. I find this whole message board tedious with the screen names. If someone wants to express something, they should have the stones to say it clearly in their own name.

You know where to get my phone number. If you want to debate, call me and let me know who you are. I'll be glad to listen to your points, answer those I can, and consider the ones I can't. Until that time, it's just background noise as we move forward.

Griz, I have no idea why you think I would prefer the ALPA. You obviously haven't followed my posts. I do not want to discuss this with you in particular. I do not want this to be an issue just for NJASAP proponents. I stated from the outset that this is an issue which is far bigger than NJASAP. Your views seem very narrow and serve the NetJets pilots in the short term. I hope your advocacy doesn't bite us all down the road.

As far as anonymity goes, I use the same avitar on this board that I use when I post on the union board. I am certainly not "anonymous". You can call me or PM, if you feel the need.

I don't think I need to call you. Your views are well heralded. I am interested in how non-NJA pilots view NJASAP's move away from the labor organizations which have done so much for labor over the long haul. This thread was started for people who don't just sing from the NJASAP song book.

Is that the background noise to which you object?

 

[Grizz]

So, was it necessary to go independent to change affiliation?

Griz, I have no idea why you think I would prefer the ALPA.

I'm not sure how we could have changed affiliation without going independent if you take ALPA out of the mix. It and the Teamsters Airline Division are the two large umbrella unions that cater to pilots.

 

[Grizz]

Good question.

I would feel good about the change at NetJets if this were a change in affiliation. I do not like NJASAP as it is presently...an in-house, stand alone union.

The ALPA is affiliated with the AFL-CIO;

Aha,

I see the problem now MM. It appears that you think we could just join the AFL-CIO and make that our union. Not the case. The AFL-CIO is a federation of national and international unions. Member unions join the AFL-CIO. ALPA is a union that joined the AFL-CIO. The Teamsters used to be a member of the AFL-CIO. We could join the AFL-CIO as a member union but we'd have to be independent first.

As I said in an earlier post, the first actual election of officers will occur after we get our own union. That group will be the ones to decide if we affiliate with the AFL-CIO or not. If it is important to you, I suggest you ask each candidate their stance on it. I've already stated that I am in favor of it.

 

[Fozzy]

Griz,
What kind of benefits do you think will be worth our $3.50 per member per month(~$115,000/yr) to be in the AFL-CIO?
Just curious. Asking here because it was brought up here. NO problem asking on the NJASAP site if need be.

 

[Grizz]

First of all - I agree with MM on a lot of issues. I think labor is under attack. But we disagree on how best to solve it. A federation of unions that is responsive to labor issues funded by focused, independent unions is the best path in my mind. The independent union responds to its internal concerns and works on directly serving the needs of its members. The large federation works on more global issues and protects labor overall.

Unfortunately, I think the AFL-CIO has been remiss in its duties evidenced by the huge decline in unionized employees in this country. I'm not certain how responsive they have been to their member unions either. John Sweeney originally ran on a reformist platform back in the 90s but I'm not seeing a lot of change in that group. The problem is, they really are the only game in town. That is the dilemma we face.

Change To Win is focused almost entirely on organizing new unions and their viability/effectiveness is currently a large unknown. The have a couple of large unions including the Teamsters but they are limited in number of member unions. I think they only have 7 members. I'm not ruling them out but I'd like to have more information on a comparison of the benefit of joining them over the AFL-CIO.

I also think the ability to help organize fractional operators in Europe is a good thing. Since the AFL-CIO is recognized in the EU, it offers that as a path of joint cooperation. Also, since ALPA is a member of the AFL-CIO, joint cooperation through that channel is also possible.

NJASAP plans on helping establish an independent Global Trade Association that will help other fractional pilot groups organize and speak with a common voice. I'm hoping that it will be possible to do both the GTA and a federation outside the aviation industry.

Regardless of what path we choose, joint cooperation of ALPA, CAPA and our global trade association on pilot issues are critical for all of us.

 

[Grizz]

Also - I'm not certain that figure of $3.50 a month per member is correct. The figure they have in their Constitution is $ 0.65 per member.

 

[Mooneymite]

Aha,

I see the problem now MM. It appears that you think we could just join the AFL-CIO and make that our union. Not the case. The AFL-CIO is a federation of national and international unions. Member unions join the AFL-CIO. ALPA is a union that joined the AFL-CIO. The Teamsters used to be a member of the AFL-CIO. We could join the AFL-CIO as a member union but we'd have to be independent first.

As I said in an earlier post, the first actual election of officers will occur after we get our own union. That group will be the ones to decide if we affiliate with the AFL-CIO or not. If it is important to you, I suggest you ask each candidate their stance on it. I've already stated that I am in favor of it.

Actually, I do understand the process for affiliation with the AFL-CIO. I alluded to my views in an exchange about "Olsen" which apparently you missed.

I am now going to a part of the issue which does belong on the union board, but since we're here, I'll broach it....

I object to the way NJASAP has sold itself to the membership.

Saving $3000/day is not nearly as important as keeping labor strong. If strength costs us all $4000/day, so be it. I think NJASAP has set itself up for perpetual independence now that the membership has been told that "cheap" is good and that any outside control is bad.

If NJASAP is just an interim step and the real goal is only to change affiliation, it should bill itself as such. I would never have started the thread; it would be an internal NJA pilot question.

Once again, I started this thread because the independent union juggernaut is a threat to labor long-term. Someone needs to stand up and say so. I used NJASAP since it is the latest and most visible local to go independent, but the arguments apply to SWAPA and APA and a multitude of other in-house independents which contribute very little outside of their own little world.

Do we want to be part of organized labor, or dis-organized labor? This is a question that applies far more broadly than just to NJA pilots.

Sorry if those verses are not in the NJASAP song book.

 

[Grizz]

MM,

Your objections are duly noted. It appears that 80%+ of the pilots at NetJets don't agree with you. Had you been at NetJets longer and seen the absolute lack of any support from the IBT, you might be numbered among those folks.

As a MEC member, I pledged to watch out for the best interests of NetJets pilots. I feel that this move is clearly in their best interest. Obviously, they do too.

I am done with this thread now. If anyone that has a vote in the matter has any questions, please feel free to contact me directly or post it on the NJASAP message board.

 

[Mooneymite]

MM,

> It appears that 80%+ of the pilots at NetJets don't agree with you. <.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this figure. 80% of the NJA pilots obviously think the IBT is doing a terrible job. I do not disagree.

My support has not been directed toward the IBT per se. I am advocating strong support for organizations which can be labor's advocate on a national and global level. Small independent unions will never have any clout in this arena, but they will live and die by the success/failures of labor in the global battle against labor.

Thank you for noting my objections. If the fractionalization of unions continues, I will be proven 100% correct in predicting a worsening environment for all locals to operate in.

I will take small consolation in being right. It will be a disaster for all of us.

NJASAP, look before you leap.

 

[captain dad]

I bet this guy can't pass by a mirror without looking at himself.

You are a tool me thinks.

 

[Mooneymite]

I bet this guy can't pass by a mirror without looking at himself.

Nah...when you get old and ugly, you avoid mirrors.