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Look before you leap, NJASAP!

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Mooneymite

Well-known member
Joined
May 30, 2005
Posts
197
“$3000 per day! That's what we send to IBT, day in - day out. Every day that we delay, we just add to the coffers in DC.”
NJASAP Leadership
*******************
Wait just a minute, folks.

Before we join the ranks of dis-organized labor, let’s slow down and consider something other than our own parochial interests. While it’s easy to say that we are sending $3000 a day out of our direct control, it may be a little rash to say that we receive no benefit. The IBT has many locals and many concerns. It is fighting for the wages and working conditions of more than just 1108. While we may not see our $3000 per day working within our own walls, it would not be true to say that we’ve received no benefit.

A juggernaut is rolling down the streets paved by organized labor. This juggernaut’s siren-call is “keep your money in-house and fight your own battles!”

This call is reverberating throughout the airline industry, and I suppose elsewhere as well.
Before we further fragment labor we need to carefully analyze if our long term goals are really best served by disassociating ourselves from organized labor. Are we succumbing to the allure of short term goals by sacrificing long term strength and labor solidarity?

When the ALPA represented the majority of airline pilots, the APA and then the SWAPA gleefully pulled the plug and saved themselves a bundle by “going it alone”. For awhile this worked, but as more and more airlines are dropping ALPA, its strength has been sapped and we are seeing labor falling further and further behind in political strength and having fewer and fewer friendly courts.

Is it a mystery why the 121 guys are making less than 50% of what they were making a few years ago? It took the ALPA years to build the political base it enjoyed, but it took only eight years for it to become impotent.

Ladies and gentlemen, we do not operate in a labor-management world of our own, long-term. Yes, today, we are enjoying the fruits of a management that cares about the company, the customers and the employees. We really don’t need anything but a loose association to represent us. However, when RTS is dead, gone and forgotten and the “money boys” come, just as they did to USAir, Emory, United, Delta…who will we turn to when we need some horsepower? Ourselves? Try those “strong union” tactics against a vicious management backed by courts staffed and paid for by big business! Watch the injunctions come down and the individual pilots fired. Watch the bankruptcy court take everything you’ve worked a career for! Ask me how I know.

Think our little union is tough? Ha!

When the NetJets’ pilot scope clause is violated and foreign pilots are flying “our” planes because cabotage is pushed through, will the IBT be there when we need some “big guns”?

Is the IBT ideal? NO! Is the ALPA a panacea? NO! Do they need to change? Yes? Are we going to change them by going it on our own? NO!

Before we throw out what has taken years to build, let us look before we leap! If Bill Olsen wants to start a new national union of pilots that will include every pilot who earns his living by flying, this may be a great first step. ALPA’s formula is badly broken; the IBT maybe worse. But if Bill Olsen is merely trying to save $3000 per day by abandoning organized labor, he had better think before he leads his trusting sheep over the precipice.
 
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Try writing that again without all the code.
It made my head hurt.

My card is in. IBT had their chance. I am willing to roll the bones.
 
These are valid questions. Asking questions is the beginning to make an informed decision, which is the best way for all of us to go.

I recommend asking this again on www.njasap.com, or CALLING the leaders. Their contact info is on the home page for the website. They will answer you.

I was at the meeting last night. Informative and straight forward is how I'll describe it.
 
Mooneymite,

Were you for or against the IBB?
 
Mooneymite;1546647.... Before we join the ranks of dis-organized labor said:
That comment does a great dis-service to the leaders and volunteers of the well organized Union of the NJA pilots. [/color] let’s slow down and consider something other than our own parochial interests. Working hard to raise the bar across the frac industry deserves much more credit that your words convey. ... While we may not see our $3000 per day working within our own walls, it would not be true to say that we’ve received no benefit. The NJ pilots and their families looked to themselves to solve their problems and that's where credit is due. The pilots of CS know who to thank for the upcoming raise and the Options pilots know who helped them get to the bargaining table.

A juggernaut is rolling down the streets paved by organized labor. This juggernaut’s siren-call is “keep your money in-house and fight your own battles!” The NJ pilots have a reputation of fighting for the frac industry. That is a worthy goal; they're doing plenty to help out and it's entirely fair to expect other workers to step up to the plate in their industries.

... Before we further fragment labor we need to carefully analyze if our long term goals are really best served by disassociating ourselves from organized labor. With all due respect, this has already been done and valuable insight was provided by a NJ leader who went to help in the Airline Division; it seems you need to (re)read that pilot's posts better. Are we succumbing to the allure of short term goals by sacrificing long term strength and labor solidarity Not at all. Being able to go solo takes a lot of strength and unity. NJASAP has long-term goals laid out on their website. Have you read all of the info there?

.... but as more and more airlines are dropping ALPA, its strength has been sapped and we are seeing labor falling further and further behind ..... Back up please--you skipped something important. Former ALPA members experienced a lack of help and that's why they left. The NJASAP website discusses ALPA and the conflict of interests that is at the root of the problem for the membership there.

... However, when RTS is dead, gone and forgotten and the “money boys” come, ... who will we turn to when we need some horsepower? Ourselves? Yes. Unity and determination got the NJ group where it is today. They provided the "horsepower"--not the IBT. Try those “strong union” tactics against a vicious management backed by courts staffed and paid for by big business! .... In such a scenario the NJ pilots would still be relying only on themselves--as past history can show--but they'd have millions less to do it with...:rolleyes: Think our little union is tough? Ha! Do I think that snide remark was demeaning and wrong? Yes!

When the NetJets’ pilot scope clause is violated and foreign pilots are flying “our” planes because cabotage is pushed through, will the IBT be there when we need some “big guns”? Advocating frac interests ahead of time (which is far more than the Teamsters will do) provides the best chance of avoiding the scenario you propose. Big guns are of no consequence if the owner has no interest in pulling them out.

Is the IBT ideal? NO! Is the ALPA a panacea? NO! Do they need to change? Yes? Are we going to change them by going it on our own? NO! Irrelevant question: the NJ pilots will control their own destiny and be in a better position to help their industry peers. Those better suited to remain in the IBT can choose to attempt a fix.

Before we throw out what has taken years to build, let us look before we leap! Smart dedicated leaders have spent considerable time doing this already long before they made the suggestion to go solo. If Bill Olsen wants to start .... The long range goals of NJASAP are explained on their website and Olsen has always been available for questions. If you're not sure of something you ought to contact those leaders best positioned to discuss their plans for the future. But if Bill Olsen is merely trying to save $3000 per day by abandoning organized labor, he had better think before he leads his trusting sheep over the precipice. To describe the NJ pilots as sheep does them a grave injustice and denies them due credit for the accomplishments seen to date. Bill wouldn't agree with your ill-chosen term for Strong Union members.

While the dollar amount is staggering and provides a handy way to grab attention, there is A LOT more at stake than just the money. MM, I suggest you reread the info provided by the leadership and/or talk to them personally because I am well acquainted with the gentlemen and I know that you are not seeing the big picture. NJW
 
Also, take it to the appropriate forum. Either 1108 or NJASAP would do.

I believe this is an appropriate forum.

The fractionalization of labor is not just a question for the NetJets pilots. The NetJets pilots are only the latest group to fall under the juggernaut. This is an issue which may well bite every pilot who makes his living flying planes; we will pay a price for the loss of solidarity. Just as one pilot cannot stand against the whithering attack of capital, one pilot group cannot effectively fight it either.

Look how we are already pitted, one group against the other.

Personally, I think NJASAP is a done deal. It is certainly a choice that the pilots are free to make. My question is as to its wisdom in the long term. I would welcome comments from those outside of NJA.
 
MM,

First, bad move to take something directly off our union board and put it on here. For someone who claims to put a lot of thought into these things, you've already muddied your credibility with this little slip.

Second, although it may sound heartless, I really don't care to fund the trucker's fight.

And as has already been mentioned, the mere fact that IBT has to represent the interests of the 121 carriers puts it directly at odds with the goals of the fracs. So how does that help us exactly?

We've had pilots fired and IBT didn't lift a finger, not even their little toe, to help them. It was done all on our own, with our own money and determination.

Where was the IBT support during our 2005 negotiations? IBB? How about even some aknowledgment of our victories in their magazine?

Have you heard a single word Bill O. and others have said about what's happened almost every time we've asked for support?

I suppose I wouldn't mind sending them money everyday if we even saw some tiny little return on that investment.

And as week as labor may be getting, we have shown forth brightly to take charge of our own destiny at NJA, ON OUR OWN without any support from IBT!

Send em packing!!
 
get the card in.......

My cards already in.... the only thing that will change my mind is .. NOTHING! they didnt help us back when we needed change and they are not helping now, just a bunch of blood suckin' vampires.

The new union will prevail.
 

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