Look before you leap, NJASAP!

[Mooneymite]

“$3000 per day! That's what we send to IBT, day in - day out. Every day that we delay, we just add to the coffers in DC.”
NJASAP Leadership
*******************
Wait just a minute, folks.

Before we join the ranks of dis-organized labor, let’s slow down and consider something other than our own parochial interests. While it’s easy to say that we are sending $3000 a day out of our direct control, it may be a little rash to say that we receive no benefit. The IBT has many locals and many concerns. It is fighting for the wages and working conditions of more than just 1108. While we may not see our $3000 per day working within our own walls, it would not be true to say that we’ve received no benefit.

A juggernaut is rolling down the streets paved by organized labor. This juggernaut’s siren-call is “keep your money in-house and fight your own battles!”

This call is reverberating throughout the airline industry, and I suppose elsewhere as well.
Before we further fragment labor we need to carefully analyze if our long term goals are really best served by disassociating ourselves from organized labor. Are we succumbing to the allure of short term goals by sacrificing long term strength and labor solidarity?

When the ALPA represented the majority of airline pilots, the APA and then the SWAPA gleefully pulled the plug and saved themselves a bundle by “going it alone”. For awhile this worked, but as more and more airlines are dropping ALPA, its strength has been sapped and we are seeing labor falling further and further behind in political strength and having fewer and fewer friendly courts.

Is it a mystery why the 121 guys are making less than 50% of what they were making a few years ago? It took the ALPA years to build the political base it enjoyed, but it took only eight years for it to become impotent.

Ladies and gentlemen, we do not operate in a labor-management world of our own, long-term. Yes, today, we are enjoying the fruits of a management that cares about the company, the customers and the employees. We really don’t need anything but a loose association to represent us. However, when RTS is dead, gone and forgotten and the “money boys” come, just as they did to USAir, Emory, United, Delta…who will we turn to when we need some horsepower? Ourselves? Try those “strong union” tactics against a vicious management backed by courts staffed and paid for by big business! Watch the injunctions come down and the individual pilots fired. Watch the bankruptcy court take everything you’ve worked a career for! Ask me how I know.

Think our little union is tough? Ha!

When the NetJets’ pilot scope clause is violated and foreign pilots are flying “our” planes because cabotage is pushed through, will the IBT be there when we need some “big guns”?

Is the IBT ideal? NO! Is the ALPA a panacea? NO! Do they need to change? Yes? Are we going to change them by going it on our own? NO!

Before we throw out what has taken years to build, let us look before we leap! If Bill Olsen wants to start a new national union of pilots that will include every pilot who earns his living by flying, this may be a great first step. ALPA’s formula is badly broken; the IBT maybe worse. But if Bill Olsen is merely trying to save $3000 per day by abandoning organized labor, he had better think before he leads his trusting sheep over the precipice.

 

[Fozzy]

Try writing that again without all the code.
It made my head hurt.

My card is in. IBT had their chance. I am willing to roll the bones.

 

[theskyking]

Also, take it to the appropriate forum. Either 1108 or NJASAP would do.

 

[fischman]

These are valid questions. Asking questions is the beginning to make an informed decision, which is the best way for all of us to go.

I recommend asking this again on www.njasap.com, or CALLING the leaders. Their contact info is on the home page for the website. They will answer you.

I was at the meeting last night. Informative and straight forward is how I'll describe it.

 

[Grizz]

Might want to read the TOS for the union message board Mooneymite.

 

[CRJFlyer]

Mooneymite,

Were you for or against the IBB?

 

[netjetwife]

That comment does a great dis-service to the leaders and volunteers of the well organized Union of the NJA pilots. [/color] let’s slow down and consider something other than our own parochial interests. Working hard to raise the bar across the frac industry deserves much more credit that your words convey. ... While we may not see our $3000 per day working within our own walls, it would not be true to say that we’ve received no benefit. The NJ pilots and their families looked to themselves to solve their problems and that's where credit is due. The pilots of CS know who to thank for the upcoming raise and the Options pilots know who helped them get to the bargaining table.

A juggernaut is rolling down the streets paved by organized labor. This juggernaut’s siren-call is “keep your money in-house and fight your own battles!” The NJ pilots have a reputation of fighting for the frac industry. That is a worthy goal; they're doing plenty to help out and it's entirely fair to expect other workers to step up to the plate in their industries.

... Before we further fragment labor we need to carefully analyze if our long term goals are really best served by disassociating ourselves from organized labor. With all due respect, this has already been done and valuable insight was provided by a NJ leader who went to help in the Airline Division; it seems you need to (re)read that pilot's posts better. Are we succumbing to the allure of short term goals by sacrificing long term strength and labor solidarity Not at all. Being able to go solo takes a lot of strength and unity. NJASAP has long-term goals laid out on their website. Have you read all of the info there?

.... but as more and more airlines are dropping ALPA, its strength has been sapped and we are seeing labor falling further and further behind ..... Back up please--you skipped something important. Former ALPA members experienced a lack of help and that's why they left. The NJASAP website discusses ALPA and the conflict of interests that is at the root of the problem for the membership there.

... However, when RTS is dead, gone and forgotten and the “money boys” come, ... who will we turn to when we need some horsepower? Ourselves? Yes. Unity and determination got the NJ group where it is today. They provided the "horsepower"--not the IBT. Try those “strong union” tactics against a vicious management backed by courts staffed and paid for by big business! .... In such a scenario the NJ pilots would still be relying only on themselves--as past history can show--but they'd have millions less to do it with... Think our little union is tough? Ha! Do I think that snide remark was demeaning and wrong? Yes!

When the NetJets’ pilot scope clause is violated and foreign pilots are flying “our” planes because cabotage is pushed through, will the IBT be there when we need some “big guns”? Advocating frac interests ahead of time (which is far more than the Teamsters will do) provides the best chance of avoiding the scenario you propose. Big guns are of no consequence if the owner has no interest in pulling them out.

Is the IBT ideal? NO! Is the ALPA a panacea? NO! Do they need to change? Yes? Are we going to change them by going it on our own? NO! Irrelevant question: the NJ pilots will control their own destiny and be in a better position to help their industry peers. Those better suited to remain in the IBT can choose to attempt a fix.

Before we throw out what has taken years to build, let us look before we leap! Smart dedicated leaders have spent considerable time doing this already long before they made the suggestion to go solo. If Bill Olsen wants to start .... The long range goals of NJASAP are explained on their website and Olsen has always been available for questions. If you're not sure of something you ought to contact those leaders best positioned to discuss their plans for the future. But if Bill Olsen is merely trying to save $3000 per day by abandoning organized labor, he had better think before he leads his trusting sheep over the precipice. To describe the NJ pilots as sheep does them a grave injustice and denies them due credit for the accomplishments seen to date. Bill wouldn't agree with your ill-chosen term for Strong Union members.

While the dollar amount is staggering and provides a handy way to grab attention, there is A LOT more at stake than just the money. MM, I suggest you reread the info provided by the leadership and/or talk to them personally because I am well acquainted with the gentlemen and I know that you are not seeing the big picture. NJW

 

[Mooneymite]

Also, take it to the appropriate forum. Either 1108 or NJASAP would do.

I believe this is an appropriate forum.

The fractionalization of labor is not just a question for the NetJets pilots. The NetJets pilots are only the latest group to fall under the juggernaut. This is an issue which may well bite every pilot who makes his living flying planes; we will pay a price for the loss of solidarity. Just as one pilot cannot stand against the whithering attack of capital, one pilot group cannot effectively fight it either.

Look how we are already pitted, one group against the other.

Personally, I think NJASAP is a done deal. It is certainly a choice that the pilots are free to make. My question is as to its wisdom in the long term. I would welcome comments from those outside of NJA.

 

[realityman]

MM,

First, bad move to take something directly off our union board and put it on here. For someone who claims to put a lot of thought into these things, you've already muddied your credibility with this little slip.

Second, although it may sound heartless, I really don't care to fund the trucker's fight.

And as has already been mentioned, the mere fact that IBT has to represent the interests of the 121 carriers puts it directly at odds with the goals of the fracs. So how does that help us exactly?

We've had pilots fired and IBT didn't lift a finger, not even their little toe, to help them. It was done all on our own, with our own money and determination.

Where was the IBT support during our 2005 negotiations? IBB? How about even some aknowledgment of our victories in their magazine?

Have you heard a single word Bill O. and others have said about what's happened almost every time we've asked for support?

I suppose I wouldn't mind sending them money everyday if we even saw some tiny little return on that investment.

And as week as labor may be getting, we have shown forth brightly to take charge of our own destiny at NJA, ON OUR OWN without any support from IBT!

Send em packing!!

 

[Just Peachy]

get the card in.......

My cards already in.... the only thing that will change my mind is .. NOTHING! they didnt help us back when we needed change and they are not helping now, just a bunch of blood suckin' vampires.

The new union will prevail.

 

[NJAPLT]

The IBT doing nothing to help us is bad enough, but the head teamster telling a subordinate to interfere with our local 1108's executive board is way over the line. I suspect that more interference will occur until we take it upon ourselves to change over to the NJASAP.

 

[netjetwife]

I believe this is an appropriate forum.

The fractionalization of labor is not just a question for the NetJets pilots. The NetJets pilots are only the latest group to fall under the juggernaut. This is an issue which may well bite every pilot who makes his living flying planes; Let's put this into the proper context: because of the efforts of the NJ pilots a new industry standard has been set for frac wages. Every frac pilot who has gotten a payraise (or soon will) would gladly line up to be "bitten" again. Regional pilots have also thanked the NJ group for the efforts they're making to raise awareness and wages. we will pay a price for the loss of solidarity. How can you possibly claim there is a loss when the last 3 yrs in the industry have seen unprecedented gains in solidarity? If you're making a gloomy prediction it must be noted that the 1108 leaders don't share your lack of faith in their fellow pilots. Just as one pilot cannot stand against the whithering attack of capital, one pilot group cannot effectively fight it either. Which is exactly why the NJASAP Board of Directors will have a Vice President of Industry Affairs to oversee all research, outreach, and lobbying with regard to aviation industry issues that either directly or indirectly relate to the interests of the Association and its members. This includes a liaison with any Global Trade Association and any other outside organizations, including but not limited to; AFL‐CIO, ALPA, APA, CAPA, , FAA, IBT, IPA, NMB, NTSB, and SWAPA. Look how we are already pitted, one group against the other. I'm looking and I see that raising the bar does work. CS pilots are pleased that due to the NJ IBB raise they will be getting one, too. I also see that the Options pilots are well on the path to having their first contract ever to lock in wages and work rules. The big sum of money recently given to the Ops pilotgroup didn't just magically appear there and their calls for parity with NJ pilots helps their cause. So who are these groups allegedly pitted against each other?

Personally, I think NJASAP is a done deal. It is certainly a choice that the pilots are free to make. Agreed and I think they'll make the right one. I can see the NJ pilot-artist's cartoon now -- AV pushing a wheelbarrow full of cards... My question is as to its wisdom in the long term. I would welcome comments from those outside of NJA.

I should think you'd be more interested in discussing the situation with those in a better position to explain the wisdom of the proposed move that will directly impact the NJ pilots and their families. NJASAP leaders and many of the pilots view self-determination and greater opportunities to influence aviation issues as completely valid reasons to take their Strong Union to the next logical step.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I should think you'd be more interested in discussing the situation with those in a better position to explain the wisdom of the proposed move that will directly impact the NJ pilots and their families. NJASAP leaders and many of the pilots view self-determination and greater opportunities to influence aviation issues as completely valid reasons to take their Strong Union to the next logical step.

In other words, "Hey Y'all, watch this!!" :laugh:

 

[B19 Flyer]

MM,

First, bad move to take something directly off our union board and put it on here. For someone who claims to put a lot of thought into these things, you've already muddied your credibility with this little slip.

Second, although it may sound heartless, I really don't care to fund the trucker's fight.

And as has already been mentioned, the mere fact that IBT has to represent the interests of the 121 carriers puts it directly at odds with the goals of the fracs. So how does that help us exactly?

We've had pilots fired and IBT didn't lift a finger, not even their little toe, to help them. It was done all on our own, with our own money and determination.

Where was the IBT support during our 2005 negotiations? IBB? How about even some aknowledgment of our victories in their magazine?

Have you heard a single word Bill O. and others have said about what's happened almost every time we've asked for support?

I suppose I wouldn't mind sending them money everyday if we even saw some tiny little return on that investment.

And as week as labor may be getting, we have shown forth brightly to take charge of our own destiny at NJA, ON OUR OWN without any support from IBT!

Send em packing!!

It's a beautiful thing!

Unions picking on unions. It doesn't get any more fun for me than this!!!

:beer:

 

[B19 Flyer]

While the dollar amount is staggering and provides a handy way to grab attention, there is A LOT more at stake than just the money. MM, I suggest you reread the info provided by the leadership and/or talk to them personally because I am well acquainted with the gentlemen and I know that you are not seeing the big picture. NJW

NJW, nobody sees the big picture according to you.

If they did, they would all have properly invested in their careers and become pilots, right?

 

[captain dad]

Over 1000 cards in and counting.

Same people, same pilots, same union, just not giving IBT money for nothing.

No Brainer.

We Win Again!:laugh:

 

[Hawker dude]

I believe this is an appropriate forum.

The fractionalization of labor is not just a question for the NetJets pilots. The NetJets pilots are only the latest group to fall under the juggernaut. This is an issue which may well bite every pilot who makes his living flying planes; we will pay a price for the loss of solidarity. Just as one pilot cannot stand against the whithering attack of capital, one pilot group cannot effectively fight it either.

Look how we are already pitted, one group against the other.

Personally, I think NJASAP is a done deal. It is certainly a choice that the pilots are free to make. My question is as to its wisdom in the long term. I would welcome comments from those outside of NJA.

so we should join ALPA? is that what you're saying?

they did such a great job didn't they. hmmm, they sign an industry leading contract with Air whiskey then ACA and then comair and then come in and sign Mesa to one of the crappiest contracts ever. they put every ALPA represented airline against each other. they created a race to the bottom. good job ALPO

and now you want NJA to give 25% of its money to the teamsters and get nothing in return for that money?

you need a clue man

you

 

[CastofThousands]

Speaking with a good deal of inside info on the subject, “Olsen” is concluding 10 years in a pilot advocate - union role. He has no intention of running (or running for election with) Local 1108, NJASAP, or a National Pilots Union. The soil has been churned, seeds planted, water is running, and the crops are flourishing. NJASAP is a pilot movement – tying it to “Olsen” would be a disservice to the hundreds leading and involved in the effort. I can say with absolute certainty “Olsen” isn’t running NJASAP or starting a national pilots organization.

We may be witnessing the evolution of a Twenty-First Century labor reorganization within the piloting profession. It has to start somewhere and one pilot group (not one pilot) must lead the way. It may simply be within the Fractional Aircraft segment of the industry. No one individual can accomplish this noble goal. So if it’s going to evolve, if the pilots are going to turn the corner on lessons learned within our profession, if we are going to see a labor reorganization within the pilot profession – it will be done by the masses.

It will only truly happen if labor focuses on business and the businesses focus on their labor (employees) so the employees can focus on the customer experience. That being said, all worthless - self absorbed - short-term returns greed over long-term sustainability - greed driven managers need to be flushed … whoosh … like the turds they are.

So no, I doubt you’ll see “Olsen” running an established broad based democratic labor organization. Some prefer running Special Forces teams over running the Pentagon.

The reality is if the large national labor organizations performed at the same standard they insist from management, more than one-third of the US workforce would be proud union members. That being said, if management preformed to the standards they insist from employees, unions might be nonexistent.

Where will the profession go from here? I am all for a national shutdown, ground the planes, effective December 15, 2012, unless; the RLA is reformed, national industry segment contracts, national industry segment seniority lists, and to take care of the people who pay the bills – a passenger bill of rights. That’s four years to prepare.

Just say when… Otherwise, “Olsen” will be in Park City, UT, on a pair of skies or a mountain bike while doing what he can from the backroom.

 

[Ultra Grump]

When the ALPA represented the majority of airline pilots, the APA and then the SWAPA gleefully pulled the plug and saved themselves a bundle by “going it alone”. For awhile this worked, but as more and more airlines are dropping ALPA, its strength has been sapped and we are seeing labor falling further and further behind in political strength and having fewer and fewer friendly courts.

Seems like the SWAPA- and APA-represented pilots have done alright, post-9/11. How have the ALPA-represented pilots fared?

 

[Voice Of Reason]

The IBT doing nothing to help us is bad enough, but the head teamster telling a subordinate to interfere with our local 1108's executive board is way over the line. I suspect that more interference will occur until we take it upon ourselves to change over to the NJASAP.

You know...I can see why the NJA guys want to do this, but this jumping on anyone who expresses a view that is different than what APPEARS to be the norm on here, as some mgt lackey is getting old. The OP does bring up one valid point that I would be concerned with as well...A huge union like ALPA or IBT puts out heavy duty money (much more than they would get from NJA ALONE) into lobbying. As disreputable a thing lobbying seems, it has in fact done much for the profession, thought it may not seem like it these days.
I like to see open discussion with legitimate concerns raised (and I don't mean the obvious trolls such as B19)...any fear of that tells me that the other side doesn't have a good answer and can only shout "stooge". Why not keep the paranoid comments to yourself and win in a spirited debate that addresses concerns? Anything less, and the attempt to only show one view, would be the ultimate Kool-Aid. This isn't CubaTV where we keep the little people shielded from all views but one...

 

[Grizz]

VOR -

I agree that a large national union can spend more money on lobbying efforts. Unfortunately for us, the Teamsters have chosen not to do that for the airline profession. The Airline division is basically one man without a staff or a budget. We simply aren't a priority to the Teamsters.

That's one of our largest bones of contention. We send them a significant amount of money every year with no real return on investment.

 

[CA1900]

A huge union like ALPA or IBT puts out heavy duty money (much more than they would get from NJA ALONE) into lobbying. As disreputable a thing lobbying seems, it has in fact done much for the profession, thought it may not seem like it these days.

No disagreement from me, but the nature of that lobbying is actually part of the reason I support the split.

My issue is that some of the things that IBT has been supporting -- like user fees -- conflict with the needs of the fractional industry. Some of the things that are good for airlines are bad for fractionals, and unfortunately, the airline side is the one they've chosen to support. On other issues that affect us, IBT simply doesn't do anything.

I don't feel we get adequate return on the money we send them. Everything we've accomplished, we've done for ourselves, without a dollar or a word of advice from IBT. Further, I see the national working against us on several issues. That's why I support the split.

When our pilot group was small, association with IBT helped our cause, even if we didn't get much support out of them. It was an insurance policy, though not a great one. As large as our group is now, though, I believe we have the knowledge and funding base to do this on our own. We're big enough that we can "self-insure," so to speak, which will keep millions of dollars at the local level, where we'll have complete access to it should we need it.

 

[JungleJett]

You want a clear path to dicking up a profession....ask ALPA to come on board. They have become nothing more than your typical shady political organization claiming to serve the interest of its membership. If ALPA were ever to come looking for a foot in the door in the factional business, I would carry the battle flag against them.

They have done good work but they are losing their ability to have any say...their time may have passed.

It does seem as those who are not under the ALPA banner have done ok...ironic? Not in this former ALPA pilots opinion.

Two things go in he mail today. My ALPA pin back to John "The traitor" Prater and my card to NJASAP!

 

[Guitar Guy]

Why would we want ALPA? We don't fly for an airline.

 

[VVJM265]

I think he's being sarcastic....

 

[Mooneymite]

quote]


> MM,
>
> First, bad move to take something directly off our union board and put it on here. For someone who claims to put a lot of thought into these things, you've already muddied your credibility with this little slip.

Realtyman, the quote I started my post with is the "drumbeat" of NJASAP. It was uttered in many forms in many places. The quote was not attributed to anyone, or any post. It is the essence of the allure of "going it alone".
>
> Second, although it may sound heartless, I really don't care to fund the trucker's fight.

Realtyman, you may not want to fund the truckers' fight, but you miss a very important truth: labor must stick together. While many love to think that they can pull everyone UP by pushing wages higher and higher, history will reveal that those on the lower levels are much more liable to drag everyone DOWN. This was ALPA's founding flaw. They tried an elitist approach to unionization. This flaw saw fruition in the "let them eat cake" attitude toward the cargo carriers and commuters.

The simple fact remains, there are one hellova lot more truckers than fractional pilots. We have far more to gain by joining forces with them than by eschewing them. In the big picture of enacting favorable labor laws and getting a fair shake in a court of law, we need to join forces, not discriminate against one another based on what type of vehicle we drive.

>
> And as has already been mentioned, the mere fact that IBT has to represent the interests of the 121 >carriers puts it directly at odds with the goals of the fracs. So how does that help us exactly?

We have far more in common with 121 carriers than we have in conflict when it comes to public policy.

> We've had pilots fired and IBT didn't lift a finger, not even their little toe, to help them. It was done all >on our own, with our own money and determination.

Realtyman, do you actually believe that national would get involved in an "in-house" problem? National is not there to do our work. National is there to further our goals on the national level. They will not and should not interfere in events that are local in nature. For example, ALPA sets "merger policy", but it does not take sides in mergers. Such would be inappropriate.

> Where was the IBT support during our 2005 negotiations? IBB? How about even some >aknowledgment of our victories in their magazine?

As important as 1108 is to every one of us, 1108 is a bump on the elephant's hide. We may be a shining example of how to run a local, but we are still just one local amongst many.

> Have you heard a single word Bill O. and others have said about what's happened almost every time we've asked for support?
>
> I suppose I wouldn't mind sending them money everyday if we even saw some tiny little return on that investment.
>
> And as week as labor may be getting, we have shown forth brightly to take charge of our own destiny at NJA, ON OUR OWN without any support from IBT!
>
> Send em packing!!

Realtyman, I think you will see a very successful campaign to "send them packing". De-organizing (dis-organizing?) labor isn't all that tough. The laws of entropy are on our side. NJASAP will be our bargaining unit by the end of the year.

Down the road, when all the barriers that organized labor has errected have fallen and big money is having its way with labor, we will realize that we need those lowly truckers; those auto workers, those fast food workers, everyone who gets an hourly wage. The re-organziation will not take place quickly, but it will eventually take place if labor is to protect itself.

My question is, why are we distroying what little unity we have already? Wouldn't it be better to fix it without de-construction?

This is an issue that I'd like every pilot to think about since, much as we hate to admit it, we are labor. We need each other.

 

[Mooneymite]

Seems like the SWAPA- and APA-represented pilots have done alright, post-9/11. How have the ALPA-represented pilots fared?

Ultra Grump, you make my point, exactly.

APA and SWAPA have prospered in an environment ALPA created, but they have not contributed; in fact, they have weakened ALPA strength and unity by not joining forces.

Yes, they have done well short term. They are enjoying the fuits of ALPA efforts, but as ALPA goes, so go APA, SWAPA and all the other "independents".


SWAPA and APA did not do a thing to influence public law, or public policy. They only rode along and enjoyed the ride.

Not a legacy I'd want to be a part of.

 

[Hawker dude]

Ultra Grump, you make my point, exactly.

APA and SWAPA have prospered in an environment ALPA created, but they have not contributed; in fact, they have weakened ALPA strength and unity by not joining forces.

Yes, they have done well short term. They are enjoying the fuits of ALPA efforts, but as ALPA goes, so go APA, SWAPA and all the other "independents".


SWAPA and APA did not do a thing to influence public law, or public policy. They only rode along and enjoyed the ride.

Not a legacy I'd want to be a part of.

ALPA sucks

 

[Mooneymite]

Speaking with a good deal of inside info on the subject, “Olsen” is concluding 10 years in a pilot advocate - union role. He has no intention of running (or running for election with) Local 1108, NJASAP, or a National Pilots Union. The soil has been churned, seeds planted, water is running, and the crops are flourishing. NJASAP is a pilot movement – tying it to “Olsen” would be a disservice to the hundreds leading and involved in the effort. I can say with absolute certainty “Olsen” isn’t running NJASAP or starting a national pilots organization.

We may be witnessing the evolution of a Twenty-First Century labor reorganization within the piloting profession. It has to start somewhere and one pilot group (not one pilot) must lead the way. It may simply be within the Fractional Aircraft segment of the industry. No one individual can accomplish this noble goal. So if it’s going to evolve, if the pilots are going to turn the corner on lessons learned within our profession, if we are going to see a labor reorganization within the pilot profession – it will be done by the masses.

It will only truly happen if labor focuses on business and the businesses focus on their labor (employees) so the employees can focus on the customer experience. That being said, all worthless - self absorbed - short-term returns greed over long-term sustainability - greed driven managers need to be flushed … whoosh … like the turds they are.

So no, I doubt you’ll see “Olsen” running an established broad based democratic labor organization. Some prefer running Special Forces teams over running the Pentagon.

The reality is if the large national labor organizations performed at the same standard they insist from management, more than one-third of the US workforce would be proud union members. That being said, if management preformed to the standards they insist from employees, unions might be nonexistent.

Where will the profession go from here? I am all for a national shutdown, ground the planes, effective December 15, 2012, unless; the RLA is reformed, national industry segment contracts, national industry segment seniority lists, and to take care of the people who pay the bills – a passenger bill of rights. That’s four years to prepare.

Just say when… Otherwise, “Olsen” will be in Park City, UT, on a pair of skies or a mountain bike while doing what he can from the backroom.

I agree and disagree with your post.

First of all, "Olsen" is an incredible leader and a tremendous asset to EVERY NetJets employee. A man of this caliber only comes along once in a great while. While he is quite modest and is forever trying to spread the praise, he is unique. Most of the people around him are either supportive drum-beaters, cheerleaders, or (a few) sycophants. He is the heart and soul of our success.

My worst nightmare is to one day see "Olsen" on the other side of the negotiating table!

However, anyone who thinks we can succeed by only organizing fractional pilots is doomed to repeat ALPA's fatal flaw..."elite unionism". I think we can see today the outcome of such a mentality. Just as pilots cannot put an airplane up in the air without a "cast of thousands", pilots cannot drag themselves up without a "cast of thousands".

Bottom line, pilots need organized labor and organized labor needs pilots. I only hope that "Olsen" will understand his manifest destiny and get rid of the NJASAP moniker and set out to build a true national union of every worker bound by the NRLA.

I believe that now is the time, and "Olsen" is the man.

I am no lover of either IBT, or the ALPA. However, they are at least vehicles to attain widespread unity; something the NJASAP doesn't offer.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Bottom line, pilots need organized labor and organized labor needs pilots.

And organized pilots needs money. Money that they contributed being spent on their interests.

I'm not a union member (at least, not yet ) but I was saying 7 or 8 years ago that NJA needed to get out of the old local and form their own. And look what happened. Now, I think the time is definitely right for 1108 to break away from the IBT and eliminate the conflict of interest that clearly exists between IBT national and 1108 (user fees for one).

I suspect that NJAASAP may be just the first local of a national fractional union built by and for pilots.

BTW, any change in status of one particular group of 300 or so pilots would go down MUCH easier with IBT out of the picture.