Look before you leap, NJASAP!

[NJAPLT]

The IBT doing nothing to help us is bad enough, but the head teamster telling a subordinate to interfere with our local 1108's executive board is way over the line. I suspect that more interference will occur until we take it upon ourselves to change over to the NJASAP.

 

[netjetwife]

I believe this is an appropriate forum.

The fractionalization of labor is not just a question for the NetJets pilots. The NetJets pilots are only the latest group to fall under the juggernaut. This is an issue which may well bite every pilot who makes his living flying planes; Let's put this into the proper context: because of the efforts of the NJ pilots a new industry standard has been set for frac wages. Every frac pilot who has gotten a payraise (or soon will) would gladly line up to be "bitten" again. Regional pilots have also thanked the NJ group for the efforts they're making to raise awareness and wages. we will pay a price for the loss of solidarity. How can you possibly claim there is a loss when the last 3 yrs in the industry have seen unprecedented gains in solidarity? If you're making a gloomy prediction it must be noted that the 1108 leaders don't share your lack of faith in their fellow pilots. Just as one pilot cannot stand against the whithering attack of capital, one pilot group cannot effectively fight it either. Which is exactly why the NJASAP Board of Directors will have a Vice President of Industry Affairs to oversee all research, outreach, and lobbying with regard to aviation industry issues that either directly or indirectly relate to the interests of the Association and its members. This includes a liaison with any Global Trade Association and any other outside organizations, including but not limited to; AFL‐CIO, ALPA, APA, CAPA, , FAA, IBT, IPA, NMB, NTSB, and SWAPA. Look how we are already pitted, one group against the other. I'm looking and I see that raising the bar does work. CS pilots are pleased that due to the NJ IBB raise they will be getting one, too. I also see that the Options pilots are well on the path to having their first contract ever to lock in wages and work rules. The big sum of money recently given to the Ops pilotgroup didn't just magically appear there and their calls for parity with NJ pilots helps their cause. So who are these groups allegedly pitted against each other?

Personally, I think NJASAP is a done deal. It is certainly a choice that the pilots are free to make. Agreed and I think they'll make the right one. I can see the NJ pilot-artist's cartoon now -- AV pushing a wheelbarrow full of cards... My question is as to its wisdom in the long term. I would welcome comments from those outside of NJA.

I should think you'd be more interested in discussing the situation with those in a better position to explain the wisdom of the proposed move that will directly impact the NJ pilots and their families. NJASAP leaders and many of the pilots view self-determination and greater opportunities to influence aviation issues as completely valid reasons to take their Strong Union to the next logical step.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I should think you'd be more interested in discussing the situation with those in a better position to explain the wisdom of the proposed move that will directly impact the NJ pilots and their families. NJASAP leaders and many of the pilots view self-determination and greater opportunities to influence aviation issues as completely valid reasons to take their Strong Union to the next logical step.

In other words, "Hey Y'all, watch this!!" :laugh:

 

[B19 Flyer]

MM,

First, bad move to take something directly off our union board and put it on here. For someone who claims to put a lot of thought into these things, you've already muddied your credibility with this little slip.

Second, although it may sound heartless, I really don't care to fund the trucker's fight.

And as has already been mentioned, the mere fact that IBT has to represent the interests of the 121 carriers puts it directly at odds with the goals of the fracs. So how does that help us exactly?

We've had pilots fired and IBT didn't lift a finger, not even their little toe, to help them. It was done all on our own, with our own money and determination.

Where was the IBT support during our 2005 negotiations? IBB? How about even some aknowledgment of our victories in their magazine?

Have you heard a single word Bill O. and others have said about what's happened almost every time we've asked for support?

I suppose I wouldn't mind sending them money everyday if we even saw some tiny little return on that investment.

And as week as labor may be getting, we have shown forth brightly to take charge of our own destiny at NJA, ON OUR OWN without any support from IBT!

Send em packing!!

It's a beautiful thing!

Unions picking on unions. It doesn't get any more fun for me than this!!!

:beer:

 

[B19 Flyer]

While the dollar amount is staggering and provides a handy way to grab attention, there is A LOT more at stake than just the money. MM, I suggest you reread the info provided by the leadership and/or talk to them personally because I am well acquainted with the gentlemen and I know that you are not seeing the big picture. NJW

NJW, nobody sees the big picture according to you.

If they did, they would all have properly invested in their careers and become pilots, right?

 

[captain dad]

Over 1000 cards in and counting.

Same people, same pilots, same union, just not giving IBT money for nothing.

No Brainer.

We Win Again!:laugh:

 

[Hawker dude]

I believe this is an appropriate forum.

The fractionalization of labor is not just a question for the NetJets pilots. The NetJets pilots are only the latest group to fall under the juggernaut. This is an issue which may well bite every pilot who makes his living flying planes; we will pay a price for the loss of solidarity. Just as one pilot cannot stand against the whithering attack of capital, one pilot group cannot effectively fight it either.

Look how we are already pitted, one group against the other.

Personally, I think NJASAP is a done deal. It is certainly a choice that the pilots are free to make. My question is as to its wisdom in the long term. I would welcome comments from those outside of NJA.

so we should join ALPA? is that what you're saying?

they did such a great job didn't they. hmmm, they sign an industry leading contract with Air whiskey then ACA and then comair and then come in and sign Mesa to one of the crappiest contracts ever. they put every ALPA represented airline against each other. they created a race to the bottom. good job ALPO

and now you want NJA to give 25% of its money to the teamsters and get nothing in return for that money?

you need a clue man

you

 

[CastofThousands]

Speaking with a good deal of inside info on the subject, “Olsen” is concluding 10 years in a pilot advocate - union role. He has no intention of running (or running for election with) Local 1108, NJASAP, or a National Pilots Union. The soil has been churned, seeds planted, water is running, and the crops are flourishing. NJASAP is a pilot movement – tying it to “Olsen” would be a disservice to the hundreds leading and involved in the effort. I can say with absolute certainty “Olsen” isn’t running NJASAP or starting a national pilots organization.

We may be witnessing the evolution of a Twenty-First Century labor reorganization within the piloting profession. It has to start somewhere and one pilot group (not one pilot) must lead the way. It may simply be within the Fractional Aircraft segment of the industry. No one individual can accomplish this noble goal. So if it’s going to evolve, if the pilots are going to turn the corner on lessons learned within our profession, if we are going to see a labor reorganization within the pilot profession – it will be done by the masses.

It will only truly happen if labor focuses on business and the businesses focus on their labor (employees) so the employees can focus on the customer experience. That being said, all worthless - self absorbed - short-term returns greed over long-term sustainability - greed driven managers need to be flushed … whoosh … like the turds they are.

So no, I doubt you’ll see “Olsen” running an established broad based democratic labor organization. Some prefer running Special Forces teams over running the Pentagon.

The reality is if the large national labor organizations performed at the same standard they insist from management, more than one-third of the US workforce would be proud union members. That being said, if management preformed to the standards they insist from employees, unions might be nonexistent.

Where will the profession go from here? I am all for a national shutdown, ground the planes, effective December 15, 2012, unless; the RLA is reformed, national industry segment contracts, national industry segment seniority lists, and to take care of the people who pay the bills – a passenger bill of rights. That’s four years to prepare.

Just say when… Otherwise, “Olsen” will be in Park City, UT, on a pair of skies or a mountain bike while doing what he can from the backroom.

 

[Ultra Grump]

When the ALPA represented the majority of airline pilots, the APA and then the SWAPA gleefully pulled the plug and saved themselves a bundle by “going it alone”. For awhile this worked, but as more and more airlines are dropping ALPA, its strength has been sapped and we are seeing labor falling further and further behind in political strength and having fewer and fewer friendly courts.

Seems like the SWAPA- and APA-represented pilots have done alright, post-9/11. How have the ALPA-represented pilots fared?

 

[Voice Of Reason]

The IBT doing nothing to help us is bad enough, but the head teamster telling a subordinate to interfere with our local 1108's executive board is way over the line. I suspect that more interference will occur until we take it upon ourselves to change over to the NJASAP.

You know...I can see why the NJA guys want to do this, but this jumping on anyone who expresses a view that is different than what APPEARS to be the norm on here, as some mgt lackey is getting old. The OP does bring up one valid point that I would be concerned with as well...A huge union like ALPA or IBT puts out heavy duty money (much more than they would get from NJA ALONE) into lobbying. As disreputable a thing lobbying seems, it has in fact done much for the profession, thought it may not seem like it these days.
I like to see open discussion with legitimate concerns raised (and I don't mean the obvious trolls such as B19)...any fear of that tells me that the other side doesn't have a good answer and can only shout "stooge". Why not keep the paranoid comments to yourself and win in a spirited debate that addresses concerns? Anything less, and the attempt to only show one view, would be the ultimate Kool-Aid. This isn't CubaTV where we keep the little people shielded from all views but one...