Look before you leap, NJASAP!

[Grizz]

VOR -

I agree that a large national union can spend more money on lobbying efforts. Unfortunately for us, the Teamsters have chosen not to do that for the airline profession. The Airline division is basically one man without a staff or a budget. We simply aren't a priority to the Teamsters.

That's one of our largest bones of contention. We send them a significant amount of money every year with no real return on investment.

 

[CA1900]

A huge union like ALPA or IBT puts out heavy duty money (much more than they would get from NJA ALONE) into lobbying. As disreputable a thing lobbying seems, it has in fact done much for the profession, thought it may not seem like it these days.

No disagreement from me, but the nature of that lobbying is actually part of the reason I support the split.

My issue is that some of the things that IBT has been supporting -- like user fees -- conflict with the needs of the fractional industry. Some of the things that are good for airlines are bad for fractionals, and unfortunately, the airline side is the one they've chosen to support. On other issues that affect us, IBT simply doesn't do anything.

I don't feel we get adequate return on the money we send them. Everything we've accomplished, we've done for ourselves, without a dollar or a word of advice from IBT. Further, I see the national working against us on several issues. That's why I support the split.

When our pilot group was small, association with IBT helped our cause, even if we didn't get much support out of them. It was an insurance policy, though not a great one. As large as our group is now, though, I believe we have the knowledge and funding base to do this on our own. We're big enough that we can "self-insure," so to speak, which will keep millions of dollars at the local level, where we'll have complete access to it should we need it.

 

[JungleJett]

You want a clear path to dicking up a profession....ask ALPA to come on board. They have become nothing more than your typical shady political organization claiming to serve the interest of its membership. If ALPA were ever to come looking for a foot in the door in the factional business, I would carry the battle flag against them.

They have done good work but they are losing their ability to have any say...their time may have passed.

It does seem as those who are not under the ALPA banner have done ok...ironic? Not in this former ALPA pilots opinion.

Two things go in he mail today. My ALPA pin back to John "The traitor" Prater and my card to NJASAP!

 

[Guitar Guy]

Why would we want ALPA? We don't fly for an airline.

 

[VVJM265]

I think he's being sarcastic....

 

[Mooneymite]

quote]


> MM,
>
> First, bad move to take something directly off our union board and put it on here. For someone who claims to put a lot of thought into these things, you've already muddied your credibility with this little slip.

Realtyman, the quote I started my post with is the "drumbeat" of NJASAP. It was uttered in many forms in many places. The quote was not attributed to anyone, or any post. It is the essence of the allure of "going it alone".
>
> Second, although it may sound heartless, I really don't care to fund the trucker's fight.

Realtyman, you may not want to fund the truckers' fight, but you miss a very important truth: labor must stick together. While many love to think that they can pull everyone UP by pushing wages higher and higher, history will reveal that those on the lower levels are much more liable to drag everyone DOWN. This was ALPA's founding flaw. They tried an elitist approach to unionization. This flaw saw fruition in the "let them eat cake" attitude toward the cargo carriers and commuters.

The simple fact remains, there are one hellova lot more truckers than fractional pilots. We have far more to gain by joining forces with them than by eschewing them. In the big picture of enacting favorable labor laws and getting a fair shake in a court of law, we need to join forces, not discriminate against one another based on what type of vehicle we drive.

>
> And as has already been mentioned, the mere fact that IBT has to represent the interests of the 121 >carriers puts it directly at odds with the goals of the fracs. So how does that help us exactly?

We have far more in common with 121 carriers than we have in conflict when it comes to public policy.

> We've had pilots fired and IBT didn't lift a finger, not even their little toe, to help them. It was done all >on our own, with our own money and determination.

Realtyman, do you actually believe that national would get involved in an "in-house" problem? National is not there to do our work. National is there to further our goals on the national level. They will not and should not interfere in events that are local in nature. For example, ALPA sets "merger policy", but it does not take sides in mergers. Such would be inappropriate.

> Where was the IBT support during our 2005 negotiations? IBB? How about even some >aknowledgment of our victories in their magazine?

As important as 1108 is to every one of us, 1108 is a bump on the elephant's hide. We may be a shining example of how to run a local, but we are still just one local amongst many.

> Have you heard a single word Bill O. and others have said about what's happened almost every time we've asked for support?
>
> I suppose I wouldn't mind sending them money everyday if we even saw some tiny little return on that investment.
>
> And as week as labor may be getting, we have shown forth brightly to take charge of our own destiny at NJA, ON OUR OWN without any support from IBT!
>
> Send em packing!!

Realtyman, I think you will see a very successful campaign to "send them packing". De-organizing (dis-organizing?) labor isn't all that tough. The laws of entropy are on our side. NJASAP will be our bargaining unit by the end of the year.

Down the road, when all the barriers that organized labor has errected have fallen and big money is having its way with labor, we will realize that we need those lowly truckers; those auto workers, those fast food workers, everyone who gets an hourly wage. The re-organziation will not take place quickly, but it will eventually take place if labor is to protect itself.

My question is, why are we distroying what little unity we have already? Wouldn't it be better to fix it without de-construction?

This is an issue that I'd like every pilot to think about since, much as we hate to admit it, we are labor. We need each other.

 

[Mooneymite]

Seems like the SWAPA- and APA-represented pilots have done alright, post-9/11. How have the ALPA-represented pilots fared?

Ultra Grump, you make my point, exactly.

APA and SWAPA have prospered in an environment ALPA created, but they have not contributed; in fact, they have weakened ALPA strength and unity by not joining forces.

Yes, they have done well short term. They are enjoying the fuits of ALPA efforts, but as ALPA goes, so go APA, SWAPA and all the other "independents".


SWAPA and APA did not do a thing to influence public law, or public policy. They only rode along and enjoyed the ride.

Not a legacy I'd want to be a part of.

 

[Hawker dude]

Ultra Grump, you make my point, exactly.

APA and SWAPA have prospered in an environment ALPA created, but they have not contributed; in fact, they have weakened ALPA strength and unity by not joining forces.

Yes, they have done well short term. They are enjoying the fuits of ALPA efforts, but as ALPA goes, so go APA, SWAPA and all the other "independents".


SWAPA and APA did not do a thing to influence public law, or public policy. They only rode along and enjoyed the ride.

Not a legacy I'd want to be a part of.

ALPA sucks

 

[Mooneymite]

Speaking with a good deal of inside info on the subject, “Olsen” is concluding 10 years in a pilot advocate - union role. He has no intention of running (or running for election with) Local 1108, NJASAP, or a National Pilots Union. The soil has been churned, seeds planted, water is running, and the crops are flourishing. NJASAP is a pilot movement – tying it to “Olsen” would be a disservice to the hundreds leading and involved in the effort. I can say with absolute certainty “Olsen” isn’t running NJASAP or starting a national pilots organization.

We may be witnessing the evolution of a Twenty-First Century labor reorganization within the piloting profession. It has to start somewhere and one pilot group (not one pilot) must lead the way. It may simply be within the Fractional Aircraft segment of the industry. No one individual can accomplish this noble goal. So if it’s going to evolve, if the pilots are going to turn the corner on lessons learned within our profession, if we are going to see a labor reorganization within the pilot profession – it will be done by the masses.

It will only truly happen if labor focuses on business and the businesses focus on their labor (employees) so the employees can focus on the customer experience. That being said, all worthless - self absorbed - short-term returns greed over long-term sustainability - greed driven managers need to be flushed … whoosh … like the turds they are.

So no, I doubt you’ll see “Olsen” running an established broad based democratic labor organization. Some prefer running Special Forces teams over running the Pentagon.

The reality is if the large national labor organizations performed at the same standard they insist from management, more than one-third of the US workforce would be proud union members. That being said, if management preformed to the standards they insist from employees, unions might be nonexistent.

Where will the profession go from here? I am all for a national shutdown, ground the planes, effective December 15, 2012, unless; the RLA is reformed, national industry segment contracts, national industry segment seniority lists, and to take care of the people who pay the bills – a passenger bill of rights. That’s four years to prepare.

Just say when… Otherwise, “Olsen” will be in Park City, UT, on a pair of skies or a mountain bike while doing what he can from the backroom.

I agree and disagree with your post.

First of all, "Olsen" is an incredible leader and a tremendous asset to EVERY NetJets employee. A man of this caliber only comes along once in a great while. While he is quite modest and is forever trying to spread the praise, he is unique. Most of the people around him are either supportive drum-beaters, cheerleaders, or (a few) sycophants. He is the heart and soul of our success.

My worst nightmare is to one day see "Olsen" on the other side of the negotiating table!

However, anyone who thinks we can succeed by only organizing fractional pilots is doomed to repeat ALPA's fatal flaw..."elite unionism". I think we can see today the outcome of such a mentality. Just as pilots cannot put an airplane up in the air without a "cast of thousands", pilots cannot drag themselves up without a "cast of thousands".

Bottom line, pilots need organized labor and organized labor needs pilots. I only hope that "Olsen" will understand his manifest destiny and get rid of the NJASAP moniker and set out to build a true national union of every worker bound by the NRLA.

I believe that now is the time, and "Olsen" is the man.

I am no lover of either IBT, or the ALPA. However, they are at least vehicles to attain widespread unity; something the NJASAP doesn't offer.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Bottom line, pilots need organized labor and organized labor needs pilots.

And organized pilots needs money. Money that they contributed being spent on their interests.

I'm not a union member (at least, not yet ) but I was saying 7 or 8 years ago that NJA needed to get out of the old local and form their own. And look what happened. Now, I think the time is definitely right for 1108 to break away from the IBT and eliminate the conflict of interest that clearly exists between IBT national and 1108 (user fees for one).

I suspect that NJAASAP may be just the first local of a national fractional union built by and for pilots.

BTW, any change in status of one particular group of 300 or so pilots would go down MUCH easier with IBT out of the picture.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I think he's being sarcastic....

I think you missed the point of my post. I wasn't responding to JungleJett (note that I did not quote his post), but rather stating something for the other readers of this thread. Some people still think that NetJets is somehow an "airline".

 

[Dr Pepper]

Over 1000 cards in and counting.

Same people, same pilots, same union, just not giving IBT money for nothing.

No Brainer.

We Win Again!:laugh:

The card says you are interested in voting. It does not say you will vote for NJAASAP.

My card has been sent, but I still hold my vote.

Mooneymite is expressing concerns that many others have as well. Good for him. Shame on those that can't listen to another viewpoint. This thread has some good info in it, once I filter the BS from the rah-rah team.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Some people still think that NetJets is somehow an "airline".

If we're not, why do they insist on dressing us like one?:uzi:

 

[JungleJett]

ALPA has done some good things in the past and probably will in the future....but they cannot adequately represent so many competing interest effectively. They have shown that countless times and most recently with the age 65 rule. ALPA went down faster than a lawyer in a V-tail on that and in doing so, screwed an entire generation of current and future airline pilots. Why..upper end of the pay scale means more dues money collected and the folks at national keep their cushy jobs.

ALPA knows nothing of unity. ZERO! Their battle cry is unity but when the larger part of the membership speaks, they turn a deaf ear. And to say that other pilot unions have ridden on the coat tails of ALPA ignores the hard work of those members who enjoy their own union.

While you feel that certain airlines have done little to effect public policy, the companies themselves have changed the way people view airline travel..and some of that may be attributable to the relationship those "non-ALPA" companies have with their employees.

We do not have to be part of some huge union to be represented properly. ALPA has proven that even with its size, it can and has had, at times, little pull in DC. The IBT has not chosen to represent our interest and it may be time to do it ourselves. I think the fractional industry may be better served ultimately by a standalone fractional union.

Guitar...my point was that I have heard from more than one ALPA rep that the ideal of bringing frac pilots into the ALPA fold has been loosely discussed. Probably bar talk but still scary. I do not want ALPA on property...EVER!

We are not an airline nor do I want to EVER be considered one. My airline pilot days are behind me and I am glad for it. One trip to EWR reminded me of that.

Ultra Grump, you make my point, exactly.

APA and SWAPA have prospered in an environment ALPA created, but they have not contributed; in fact, they have weakened ALPA strength and unity by not joining forces.

Yes, they have done well short term. They are enjoying the fuits of ALPA efforts, but as ALPA goes, so go APA, SWAPA and all the other "independents".


SWAPA and APA did not do a thing to influence public law, or public policy. They only rode along and enjoyed the ride.

Not a legacy I'd want to be a part of.

 

[captain dad]

The card says you are interested in voting. It does not say you will vote for NJAASAP.

My card has been sent, but I still hold my vote.

Mooneymite is expressing concerns that many others have as well. Good for him. Shame on those that can't listen to another viewpoint. This thread has some good info in it, once I filter the BS from the rah-rah team.

How is this for Rah Rah...

If you don't fill out a card and send it in, your absence of a vote will equal a no vote to any union. Result equals our contract will be null and void.

More Rah Rah. You want to stay with the teamsters; that haven't lifted one finger to do anything for us and continue to take our money and use it to lobby for truck driver's? Go for it.

The main thing is that we vote in a union wether it is NJASAP or IBT with a 50% +1 margin. Without that we are flying without a contract.

Get your cards in. We need 100% involvement. You think it was bad prior to the 2005 contract? Try NO CONTRACT!!

Rah Rah? No, just the truth. Don't believe me? Call the union stewards.

 

[Guitar Guy]

If we're not, why do they insist on dressing us like one?:uzi:

Hey, I took the job, in part, because we DON'T have to wear those silly airline-style hats.

Guitar...my point was that I have heard from more than one ALPA rep that the ideal of bringing frac pilots into the ALPA fold has been loosely discussed. Probably bar talk but still scary. I do not want ALPA on property...EVER!

Let's hope it never gets past the "bar talk" stage. From the guys I've talked with, whether or not they come from an airline background like you and I, no one wants to have ALPA on property here. Their reputation precedes them.

 

[Mooneymite]

ALPA knows nothing of unity. ZERO! Their battle cry is unity but when the larger part of the membership speaks, they turn a deaf ear. And to say that other pilot unions have ridden on the coat tails of ALPA ignores the hard work of those members who enjoy their own union.

I presume you are speaking of ALPA present, not the ALPA of some years ago.

As I stated before, I am not a big fan of the ALPA. ALPA went down the "elitist" road early on and today is reaping the fruits of that bad decision. Probably then, like today, pilots didn't like the idea of being lumped with (disgusting!) labor. These airline pilots developed and clung to a model that burned more bridges than it built.

All that being said, ALPA is well established and still has friends in high places. Just like the IBT.

Our 1108 leadership obviously thinks it is best to go independent rather than build upon the well established base paid for by millions of workers before us. I respect their right to make that decision, but I question its wisdom for the long term.

If SWAPA or other independent unions have made any impact as great as the ALPA's on public policy, I am not aware of it. Educate me.

 

[IDEtoNJA]

How is this for Rah Rah...

If you don't file out a card and send it in, your absence of a vote will equal a no vote to any union. Result equals our contract will be null and void.

More Rah Rah. You want to stay with the teamsters; that haven't lifted one finger to do anything for us and continue to take our money and use it to lobby for truck driver's? Go for it.

The main thing is that we vote in a union wether it is NJASAP or IBT with a 50% +1 margin. Without that we are flying without a contract.

Get your cards in. We need 100% involvement. You think it was bad prior to the 2005 contract? Try NO CONTRACT!!

Rah Rah? No, just the truth. Don't believe me? Call the union stewards.

Captain Dad,

Please do not give out wrong information!

The current authorization card drive will not change the representation status of the NetJets pilots! The current drive is meant to indicate to the NMB that the NetJets pilots want a representation vote!

Once the NMB certifies that 50% + 1 pilot have sent in a card, it will call for a new representation polling. During this polling the NetJets pilots will have the opportunity to vote for their choice of representation. This polling is the one that MUST have at least 50% + 1 vote participation for representation by either IBT, NJASAP, or any other body to ensure representation after the conclusion of the polling!

Is a high participation in the card drive important? I believe it is! However, we do not risk loss of representation with a low card drive turnout!

IDEtoNJA

 

[pilot772]

If SWAPA or other independent unions have made any impact as great as the ALPA's on public policy, I am not aware of it. Educate me.

SWAPA in fact was the hardest charger in changing the age 60 rule many years ago. Only after the winds had changed and changing the rule to 65 appeared a matter of time rather than a possibility did ALPA jump on board. In fact I remember getting a fast read from ALPA national a few years ago that ALPA was looking at changing its view. They stated that the appearance of the the law being changed was evident and they needed to get on board to help guide the legislation.

 

[Mooneymite]

SWAPA in fact was the hardest charger in changing the age 60 rule many years ago. Only after the winds had changed and changing the rule to 65 appeared a matter of time rather than a possibility did ALPA jump on board. In fact I remember getting a fast read from ALPA national a few years ago that ALPA was looking at changing its view. They stated that the appearance of the the law being changed was evident and they needed to get on board to help guide the legislation.

I think the age 60 ruling was a perfect example of why independents are NOT potent in the area of public policy/law. As I watched the age 60 rule unfold, SWAPA was totally powerless until ALPA got involved.

Funny how two people can see the same event and come away with such different views!

I guess that's what keeps Flightinfo.com a lively place.