Look before you leap, NJASAP!

[pilot772]

I think the age 60 ruling was a perfect example of why independents are NOT potent in the area of public policy/law. As I watched the age 60 rule unfold, SWAPA was totally powerless until ALPA got involved.

Funny how two people can see the same event and come away with such different views!

I guess that's what keeps Flightinfo.com a lively place.

True ain't America great.

I went back and looked through some old email, i had sent CA prater an email regarding my objection to his Blue ribbon panel (that's an entirely different can of worms) to re-examine ALPA's view of age 60 even though the entire membership had voted just a few months earlier to oppose it. He replied something to the effect of the train is already leaving the station. He gave the impression that the change was a foregone conclusion and he wanted ALPA to have a say in it. IE- stay relevant. In my opinion ALPA didn't change their opinion until after SWAPA had done all the work and it appeared to be paying off.

 

[netjetwife]

And organized pilots needs money. Money that they contributed being spent on their interests. ...I think the time is definitely right for 1108 to break away from the IBT and eliminate the conflict of interest that clearly exists between IBT national and 1108 (user fees for one). ...I suspect that NJASAP may be just the first local of a national fractional union built by and for pilots. BTW, any change in status of one particular group of 300 or so pilots would go down MUCH easier with IBT out of the picture.

Well said, GSD! The visionary leaders of NJASAP are surely aware of their NJ counterparts' sentiments regarding representation. I know the topic has been discussed at my house and the importance of the timing was noted. It seems the dust hadn't even settled from IBB when the NJASAP pilots began planning for the future....

 

[Guitar Guy]

I know the topic has been discussed at my house and the importance of the timing was noted. It seems the dust hadn't even settled from IBB when the NJASAP pilots began planning for the future....

And how would that happen?

 

[IDEtoNJA]

Good post. You are correct that in both these issues, the impetus came from outside ALPA.

However, I would point out that neither issue was resolved without the ALPA's involvement. When it comes to infulencing change, a national union will always have more clout, because (here's the cynic in me!), it has more money.

Mooneymite,

Please browse the correspondence related to the "Reserve Rest" provisions published ALPA's own web site -- http://cf.alpa.org/internet/projects/ftdt/examples/summary.html. Browsing through said correspondence lead me to believe that ALPA's national legal department was awfully silent on the matter!

The interpretive decision letter that changed the "Reserve Rest" provisions was addressed to one Captain Rich Rubin. As far as I know, not a member of ALPA. Same as the "Whitlow Letter!"

I will agree with you that a national union has greater influence and clout with policy makers. However, the question is whether these national unions have the best interests of the workers in mind. It is my opinion that in this day and age neither the IBT, nor, ALPA acts in the best interest of the pilots they represent.

IDEtoNJA

 

[netjetwife]

GG, by staying involved and following along as events unfold. I can learn a lot just watching my husband work at home...

I think the enthusiasm surrounding NJASAP reflects reliable indicator$ of interest and intent from the NJA pilotgroup. Those of us in the pilotgroup watching for result$ from the NJASAP mailer are pleased with the return$.

IDE, excellent point! Nice to see you posting... I do believe the NJA pilots can trust the insight their leaders have gained from trying to affect change within the National structure--to no avail. The recent resignations have sent a clear signal that it's time to move out.

 

[Guitar Guy]

And you should see another check in a few days.

 

[CastofThousands]

I agree and disagree with your post.

First of all, "Olsen" is an incredible leader and a tremendous asset to EVERY NetJets employee. A man of this caliber only comes along once in a great while. While he is quite modest and is forever trying to spread the praise, he is unique. Most of the people around him are either supportive drum-beaters, cheerleaders, or (a few) sycophants. He is the heart and soul of our success.

My worst nightmare is to one day see "Olsen" on the other side of the negotiating table!

However, anyone who thinks we can succeed by only organizing fractional pilots is doomed to repeat ALPA's fatal flaw..."elite unionism". I think we can see today the outcome of such a mentality. Just as pilots cannot put an airplane up in the air without a "cast of thousands", pilots cannot drag themselves up without a "cast of thousands".

Bottom line, pilots need organized labor and organized labor needs pilots. I only hope that "Olsen" will understand his manifest destiny and get rid of the NJASAP moniker and set out to build a true national union of every worker bound by the NRLA.

I believe that now is the time, and "Olsen" is the man.

I am no lover of either IBT, or the ALPA. However, they are at least vehicles to attain widespread unity; something the NJASAP doesn't offer.

Ah, very kind words for a simple Park City country boy. But, I can assure everyone the pilots are the machine while "Olsen" simply had the privilage of being the messenger.

For each pilot group to be as successfull as the NetJets pilots they need to act and perform like the NetJets pilot group - The NetJets pilots would have succeeded without "Olsen." That being said, "Olsen" would never have succeeded without the NetJets pilot group and those who work closely with him.

NetJets "Strong Union" can be easily duplicated, as long as it's dublicated from the ground - up; not from the top - down.

The Teamsters didn't make Strong Union, rather, Strong Union made Teamsters Local 1108. Keeping in mind the pilots are the [strong] union.

Has anyone noticed "Olsen" never stopped wearing the yellow 2005 Strong Union - Assoc. Shared Aircraft Pilots (ASAP) lanyard? "Olsen" is way too calculating not to be making a point.

 

[netjetwife]

Isn't it amazing how the mail can pile up when you leave town for a few days... 7 yr old Anna felt honored to help her dad open his mail last night. Our entire family thanks the pilotgroup for the camaraderie that makes NJA a great place to be...

Cast, good post! Thanks for helping others to understand what StrongUnion is really all about.

 

[Mooneymite]

I will agree with you that a national union has greater influence and clout with policy makers. However, the question is whether these national unions have the best interests of the workers in mind. It is my opinion that in this day and age neither the IBT, nor, ALPA acts in the best interest of the pilots they represent.

IDEtoNJA

We certainly agree.

Both the IBT and the ALPA need a thorough house cleaning. What we differ on is whether we are going to do a better job of getting national representation by breaking away and further weakening them with an in-house union, by cleaning them up from inside, or by establishing a new union...not of fractional pilots, but a union of all workers regulated under the NRLA.

"Olsen's" recent post above carefully avoided addressing this portion of my post about him. I'm sure there is no significance in that since "Olsen" is just a Park City country boy.

 

[netjetwife]

MM, the issue you raised was not avoided. It was answered, but it seems you missed it. I suggest you read it again: Has anyone noticed "Olsen" never stopped wearing the yellow 2005 Strong Union - Assoc. Shared Aircraft Pilots (ASAP) lanyard? "Olsen" is way too calculating not to be making a point.

Those NJA pilots not on the property during the formation of StrongUnion will be able to learn important background information from NJASAP's website. Pay careful attention to the sections Our History and Our Future. ASAP is explained and the leadership's philosophy of organizing pilots (long-range) is mentioned, as well. This information is also a good refresher for those who were distracted by the contract dispute taking place at that time. I clearly recall the introduction of ASAP, but then I follow NJA Union events closely. Given the hectic pace of that time period I can well understand that the significance of ASAP may not have registered with some of the pilotgroup. NJW

 

[CastofThousands]

We certainly agree.

Both the IBT and the ALPA need a thorough house cleaning. What we differ on is whether we are going to do a better job of getting national representation by breaking away and further weakening them with an in-house union, by cleaning them up from inside, or by establishing a new union...not of fractional pilots, but a union of all workers regulated under the NRLA.

"Olsen's" recent post above carefully avoided addressing this portion of my post about him. I'm sure there is no significance in that since "Olsen" is just a Park City country boy.

ALPA has slowed the deterioration of the profession. In every instance listed within this thread a pilot initiated and followed through with the action - on behalf of the profession.

National representation is yesterday and very Twentieth Century. Unless the revolution from the rank and file professional pilot begins the evolution of re-organizing labor, not just at the National level ... but accross the Atlantic as well, the outlook is not too good. Cabatage and foreign ownership will soon fall as a result of globalization. At that point in time we will see Deregulation (a la 1978) Part 2. And, a National pilot union will become it's own worst enemy - too slow and too politically driven. More so than today and those Nationally represented pilot groups will be much worse off than the more fluid property specific independant associations (aka unions).

Go global and industry segment specific, or don't waste the time and effort. National representation is very Twentieth Century - welcome to the Twenty-First Century. It's a hell of a hill to climb, and unless the profession is prepared to take drastic measures (like a not-so-legal national system shutdown), it will be more of the same - slowing the deterioration of the profession.

IMHO,

 

[Dr Pepper]

How is this for Rah Rah...

If you don't fill out a card and send it in, your absence of a vote will equal a no vote to any union. Result equals our contract will be null and void.

More Rah Rah. You want to stay with the teamsters; that haven't lifted one finger to do anything for us and continue to take our money and use it to lobby for truck driver's? Go for it.

The main thing is that we vote in a union wether it is NJASAP or IBT with a 50% +1 margin. Without that we are flying without a contract.

Get your cards in. We need 100% involvement. You think it was bad prior to the 2005 contract? Try NO CONTRACT!!

Rah Rah? No, just the truth. Don't believe me? Call the union stewards.

Capt Dad - throttle back. Thanks to IDEtoNJA for getting it right, which is exactly what I said. The first lines were directed to you, the second was to everyone. Anyone who reads ibt1108.com or njasap.com knows there are certain people (read not all) who have absolutely no substance to their posts. "Whatever the pres wants to do, lets do it, and give no thought. Rah rah rah. Woo Hoo!" I filter that nonsense and hope others do the same. Again I say there is good poop here. I welcome good, intelligent debate.

 

[Helmsalee]

I was directly involved with the fight to change the age 60 law. The group generally credited with the change was APAAD. They were closely supported by SWAPA and SWA. On the other hand APA fought tooth and nail against right to the last minute. ALPA changed their position only after it became apparent that the law was going to change. The thing that made the change inevitable was ICAO changing their rule to 65 and the US having to accept it as a member. Once foreign pilots over 60 started flying in US airspace, telling American pilots that they could not was not going to last. BTW, I missed the cut by 9 days. No regrets, I think I'm going to like this better.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Good post. You are correct that in both these issues, the impetus came from outside ALPA.

However, I would point out that neither issue was resolved without the ALPA's involvement. When it comes to infulencing change, a national union will always have more clout, because (here's the cynic in me!), it has more money.

I'm trying to see your ultimate motivation here. Do you want us to become ALPA, or stay IBT? I'm guessing you want to stay IBT. Why are ALPA and IBT your shining examples of trade unionism?

What have the IBT done to improve the piloting profession?

What has their clout accomplished for us (and in so doing, provided a return on our dues investment)? And by "us," I mean fractional pilots, not "unionized labor" in general.

How does our decertification from the Teamsters result in weakening organized labor, when by definition we are still organized?

The Teamsters withdrew from the AFL-CIO. Is that not weakening organized labor? How do you know we won't be affiliating with the AFL-CIO when we become NJASAP? Would that offset leaving the IBT in your eyes?

How will our staying with the IBT accomplish the "house-cleaning" you say it needs? We sent a guy to the Airline Division to try to do that, and he resigned in disgust after just a year.

We've tried and failed to work within the IBT framework. That framework is designed for truck-drivers, not pilots.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Ultra Grump, you make my point, exactly.

APA and SWAPA have prospered in an environment ALPA created, but they have not contributed; in fact, they have weakened ALPA strength and unity by not joining forces.

Yes, they have done well short term. They are enjoying the fuits of ALPA efforts, but as ALPA goes, so go APA, SWAPA and all the other "independents".


SWAPA and APA did not do a thing to influence public law, or public policy. They only rode along and enjoyed the ride.

Not a legacy I'd want to be a part of.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Which pilot group's contract now sets the benchmark for domestic narrowbody flying, and by extrapolation every other category of other majors' payscales?