Look before you leap, NJASAP!

[Guitar Guy]

I think he's being sarcastic....

I think you missed the point of my post. I wasn't responding to JungleJett (note that I did not quote his post), but rather stating something for the other readers of this thread. Some people still think that NetJets is somehow an "airline".

 

[Dr Pepper]

Over 1000 cards in and counting.

Same people, same pilots, same union, just not giving IBT money for nothing.

No Brainer.

We Win Again!:laugh:

The card says you are interested in voting. It does not say you will vote for NJAASAP.

My card has been sent, but I still hold my vote.

Mooneymite is expressing concerns that many others have as well. Good for him. Shame on those that can't listen to another viewpoint. This thread has some good info in it, once I filter the BS from the rah-rah team.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Some people still think that NetJets is somehow an "airline".

If we're not, why do they insist on dressing us like one?:uzi:

 

[JungleJett]

ALPA has done some good things in the past and probably will in the future....but they cannot adequately represent so many competing interest effectively. They have shown that countless times and most recently with the age 65 rule. ALPA went down faster than a lawyer in a V-tail on that and in doing so, screwed an entire generation of current and future airline pilots. Why..upper end of the pay scale means more dues money collected and the folks at national keep their cushy jobs.

ALPA knows nothing of unity. ZERO! Their battle cry is unity but when the larger part of the membership speaks, they turn a deaf ear. And to say that other pilot unions have ridden on the coat tails of ALPA ignores the hard work of those members who enjoy their own union.

While you feel that certain airlines have done little to effect public policy, the companies themselves have changed the way people view airline travel..and some of that may be attributable to the relationship those "non-ALPA" companies have with their employees.

We do not have to be part of some huge union to be represented properly. ALPA has proven that even with its size, it can and has had, at times, little pull in DC. The IBT has not chosen to represent our interest and it may be time to do it ourselves. I think the fractional industry may be better served ultimately by a standalone fractional union.

Guitar...my point was that I have heard from more than one ALPA rep that the ideal of bringing frac pilots into the ALPA fold has been loosely discussed. Probably bar talk but still scary. I do not want ALPA on property...EVER!

We are not an airline nor do I want to EVER be considered one. My airline pilot days are behind me and I am glad for it. One trip to EWR reminded me of that.

Ultra Grump, you make my point, exactly.

APA and SWAPA have prospered in an environment ALPA created, but they have not contributed; in fact, they have weakened ALPA strength and unity by not joining forces.

Yes, they have done well short term. They are enjoying the fuits of ALPA efforts, but as ALPA goes, so go APA, SWAPA and all the other "independents".


SWAPA and APA did not do a thing to influence public law, or public policy. They only rode along and enjoyed the ride.

Not a legacy I'd want to be a part of.

 

[captain dad]

The card says you are interested in voting. It does not say you will vote for NJAASAP.

My card has been sent, but I still hold my vote.

Mooneymite is expressing concerns that many others have as well. Good for him. Shame on those that can't listen to another viewpoint. This thread has some good info in it, once I filter the BS from the rah-rah team.

How is this for Rah Rah...

If you don't fill out a card and send it in, your absence of a vote will equal a no vote to any union. Result equals our contract will be null and void.

More Rah Rah. You want to stay with the teamsters; that haven't lifted one finger to do anything for us and continue to take our money and use it to lobby for truck driver's? Go for it.

The main thing is that we vote in a union wether it is NJASAP or IBT with a 50% +1 margin. Without that we are flying without a contract.

Get your cards in. We need 100% involvement. You think it was bad prior to the 2005 contract? Try NO CONTRACT!!

Rah Rah? No, just the truth. Don't believe me? Call the union stewards.

 

[Guitar Guy]

If we're not, why do they insist on dressing us like one?:uzi:

Hey, I took the job, in part, because we DON'T have to wear those silly airline-style hats.

Guitar...my point was that I have heard from more than one ALPA rep that the ideal of bringing frac pilots into the ALPA fold has been loosely discussed. Probably bar talk but still scary. I do not want ALPA on property...EVER!

Let's hope it never gets past the "bar talk" stage. From the guys I've talked with, whether or not they come from an airline background like you and I, no one wants to have ALPA on property here. Their reputation precedes them.

 

[Mooneymite]

ALPA knows nothing of unity. ZERO! Their battle cry is unity but when the larger part of the membership speaks, they turn a deaf ear. And to say that other pilot unions have ridden on the coat tails of ALPA ignores the hard work of those members who enjoy their own union.

I presume you are speaking of ALPA present, not the ALPA of some years ago.

As I stated before, I am not a big fan of the ALPA. ALPA went down the "elitist" road early on and today is reaping the fruits of that bad decision. Probably then, like today, pilots didn't like the idea of being lumped with (disgusting!) labor. These airline pilots developed and clung to a model that burned more bridges than it built.

All that being said, ALPA is well established and still has friends in high places. Just like the IBT.

Our 1108 leadership obviously thinks it is best to go independent rather than build upon the well established base paid for by millions of workers before us. I respect their right to make that decision, but I question its wisdom for the long term.

If SWAPA or other independent unions have made any impact as great as the ALPA's on public policy, I am not aware of it. Educate me.

 

[IDEtoNJA]

How is this for Rah Rah...

If you don't file out a card and send it in, your absence of a vote will equal a no vote to any union. Result equals our contract will be null and void.

More Rah Rah. You want to stay with the teamsters; that haven't lifted one finger to do anything for us and continue to take our money and use it to lobby for truck driver's? Go for it.

The main thing is that we vote in a union wether it is NJASAP or IBT with a 50% +1 margin. Without that we are flying without a contract.

Get your cards in. We need 100% involvement. You think it was bad prior to the 2005 contract? Try NO CONTRACT!!

Rah Rah? No, just the truth. Don't believe me? Call the union stewards.

Captain Dad,

Please do not give out wrong information!

The current authorization card drive will not change the representation status of the NetJets pilots! The current drive is meant to indicate to the NMB that the NetJets pilots want a representation vote!

Once the NMB certifies that 50% + 1 pilot have sent in a card, it will call for a new representation polling. During this polling the NetJets pilots will have the opportunity to vote for their choice of representation. This polling is the one that MUST have at least 50% + 1 vote participation for representation by either IBT, NJASAP, or any other body to ensure representation after the conclusion of the polling!

Is a high participation in the card drive important? I believe it is! However, we do not risk loss of representation with a low card drive turnout!

IDEtoNJA

 

[pilot772]

If SWAPA or other independent unions have made any impact as great as the ALPA's on public policy, I am not aware of it. Educate me.

SWAPA in fact was the hardest charger in changing the age 60 rule many years ago. Only after the winds had changed and changing the rule to 65 appeared a matter of time rather than a possibility did ALPA jump on board. In fact I remember getting a fast read from ALPA national a few years ago that ALPA was looking at changing its view. They stated that the appearance of the the law being changed was evident and they needed to get on board to help guide the legislation.

 

[Mooneymite]

SWAPA in fact was the hardest charger in changing the age 60 rule many years ago. Only after the winds had changed and changing the rule to 65 appeared a matter of time rather than a possibility did ALPA jump on board. In fact I remember getting a fast read from ALPA national a few years ago that ALPA was looking at changing its view. They stated that the appearance of the the law being changed was evident and they needed to get on board to help guide the legislation.

I think the age 60 ruling was a perfect example of why independents are NOT potent in the area of public policy/law. As I watched the age 60 rule unfold, SWAPA was totally powerless until ALPA got involved.

Funny how two people can see the same event and come away with such different views!

I guess that's what keeps Flightinfo.com a lively place.

 

[captain dad]

Captain Dad,

Please do not give out wrong information!

The current authorization card drive will not change the representation status of the NetJets pilots! The current drive is meant to indicate to the NMB that the NetJets pilots want a representation vote!

Once the NMB certifies that 50% + 1 pilot have sent in a card, it will call for a new representation polling. During this polling the NetJets pilots will have the opportunity to vote for their choice of representation. This polling is the one that MUST have at least 50% + 1 vote participation for representation by either IBT, NJASAP, or any other body to ensure representation after the conclusion of the polling!

Is a high participation in the card drive important? I believe it is! However, we do not risk loss of representation with a low card drive turnout!

IDEtoNJA

Sorry I just read my own post and see how that was implied. I didn't mean to. The card drive is what will start everything.

Correct me if I am wrong, but when it comes time to vote, an absence of a vote will equal a NO VOTE to any union.

That is the point I was trying to convey.

 

[IDEtoNJA]

If SWAPA or other independent unions have made any impact as great as the ALPA's on public policy, I am not aware of it. Educate me.

Mooneymite,

Who spearheaded the movement that concluded with the "Whitlow Letter?" The letter was addressed to Captain Richard Rubin of the Allied Pilots Association! Not ALPA!

Who spearheaded the "Reserve Rest" requirements? One of the first correspondences that I could find about this issue was initiated by one of NetJets's own pilots! Not ALPA!

ALPA has done its fair share of enhancing the safety of our profession. However, ALPA is not alone. And, sometimes ALPA supported a loosing endeavor.

IDEtoNJA

 

[IDEtoNJA]

Sorry I just read my own post and see how that was implied. I didn't mean to.

Correct me if I am wrong, but when it comes time to vote, an absence of a vote will equal a NO VOTE to any union.

That is the point I was trying to convey.

Captain Dad,

You are correct with the above assertion!

Once the polling is in progress, the absence of a vote will equal to a VOTE FOR NO REPRESENTATION of the NetJets pilot group!

Therefore and once the polling is in progress, every NetJets pilot that wants to keep representation needs to cast a vote. Whether it is for NJASAP, IBT, ALPA, or any other representative body!

IDEtoNJA

 

[captain dad]

What if it is a split vote say 33.3 % ALPA, 33.3% IBT and 33.3% NJASAP. Then what?

Just playing devil's advocate to get the word out.

 

[Mooneymite]

Mooneymite,

Who spearheaded the movement that concluded with the "Whitlow Letter?" The letter was addressed to Captain Richard Rubin of the Allied Pilots Association! Not ALPA!

Who spearheaded the "Reserve Rest" requirements? One of the first correspondences that I could find about this issue was initiated by one of NetJets's own pilots! Not ALPA!

ALPA has done its fair share of enhancing the safety of our profession. However, ALPA is not alone. And, sometimes ALPA supported a loosing endeavor.

IDEtoNJA

Good post. You are correct that in both these issues, the impetus came from outside ALPA.

However, I would point out that neither issue was resolved without the ALPA's involvement. When it comes to infulencing change, a national union will always have more clout, because (here's the cynic in me!), it has more money.

 

[pilot772]

I think the age 60 ruling was a perfect example of why independents are NOT potent in the area of public policy/law. As I watched the age 60 rule unfold, SWAPA was totally powerless until ALPA got involved.

Funny how two people can see the same event and come away with such different views!

I guess that's what keeps Flightinfo.com a lively place.

True ain't America great.

I went back and looked through some old email, i had sent CA prater an email regarding my objection to his Blue ribbon panel (that's an entirely different can of worms) to re-examine ALPA's view of age 60 even though the entire membership had voted just a few months earlier to oppose it. He replied something to the effect of the train is already leaving the station. He gave the impression that the change was a foregone conclusion and he wanted ALPA to have a say in it. IE- stay relevant. In my opinion ALPA didn't change their opinion until after SWAPA had done all the work and it appeared to be paying off.

 

[netjetwife]

And organized pilots needs money. Money that they contributed being spent on their interests. ...I think the time is definitely right for 1108 to break away from the IBT and eliminate the conflict of interest that clearly exists between IBT national and 1108 (user fees for one). ...I suspect that NJASAP may be just the first local of a national fractional union built by and for pilots. BTW, any change in status of one particular group of 300 or so pilots would go down MUCH easier with IBT out of the picture.

Well said, GSD! The visionary leaders of NJASAP are surely aware of their NJ counterparts' sentiments regarding representation. I know the topic has been discussed at my house and the importance of the timing was noted. It seems the dust hadn't even settled from IBB when the NJASAP pilots began planning for the future....

 

[Guitar Guy]

I know the topic has been discussed at my house and the importance of the timing was noted. It seems the dust hadn't even settled from IBB when the NJASAP pilots began planning for the future....

And how would that happen?

 

[IDEtoNJA]

Good post. You are correct that in both these issues, the impetus came from outside ALPA.

However, I would point out that neither issue was resolved without the ALPA's involvement. When it comes to infulencing change, a national union will always have more clout, because (here's the cynic in me!), it has more money.

Mooneymite,

Please browse the correspondence related to the "Reserve Rest" provisions published ALPA's own web site -- http://cf.alpa.org/internet/projects/ftdt/examples/summary.html. Browsing through said correspondence lead me to believe that ALPA's national legal department was awfully silent on the matter!

The interpretive decision letter that changed the "Reserve Rest" provisions was addressed to one Captain Rich Rubin. As far as I know, not a member of ALPA. Same as the "Whitlow Letter!"

I will agree with you that a national union has greater influence and clout with policy makers. However, the question is whether these national unions have the best interests of the workers in mind. It is my opinion that in this day and age neither the IBT, nor, ALPA acts in the best interest of the pilots they represent.

IDEtoNJA

 

[netjetwife]

GG, by staying involved and following along as events unfold. I can learn a lot just watching my husband work at home...

I think the enthusiasm surrounding NJASAP reflects reliable indicator$ of interest and intent from the NJA pilotgroup. Those of us in the pilotgroup watching for result$ from the NJASAP mailer are pleased with the return$.

IDE, excellent point! Nice to see you posting... I do believe the NJA pilots can trust the insight their leaders have gained from trying to affect change within the National structure--to no avail. The recent resignations have sent a clear signal that it's time to move out.

 

[Guitar Guy]

And you should see another check in a few days.

 

[CastofThousands]

I agree and disagree with your post.

First of all, "Olsen" is an incredible leader and a tremendous asset to EVERY NetJets employee. A man of this caliber only comes along once in a great while. While he is quite modest and is forever trying to spread the praise, he is unique. Most of the people around him are either supportive drum-beaters, cheerleaders, or (a few) sycophants. He is the heart and soul of our success.

My worst nightmare is to one day see "Olsen" on the other side of the negotiating table!

However, anyone who thinks we can succeed by only organizing fractional pilots is doomed to repeat ALPA's fatal flaw..."elite unionism". I think we can see today the outcome of such a mentality. Just as pilots cannot put an airplane up in the air without a "cast of thousands", pilots cannot drag themselves up without a "cast of thousands".

Bottom line, pilots need organized labor and organized labor needs pilots. I only hope that "Olsen" will understand his manifest destiny and get rid of the NJASAP moniker and set out to build a true national union of every worker bound by the NRLA.

I believe that now is the time, and "Olsen" is the man.

I am no lover of either IBT, or the ALPA. However, they are at least vehicles to attain widespread unity; something the NJASAP doesn't offer.

Ah, very kind words for a simple Park City country boy. But, I can assure everyone the pilots are the machine while "Olsen" simply had the privilage of being the messenger.

For each pilot group to be as successfull as the NetJets pilots they need to act and perform like the NetJets pilot group - The NetJets pilots would have succeeded without "Olsen." That being said, "Olsen" would never have succeeded without the NetJets pilot group and those who work closely with him.

NetJets "Strong Union" can be easily duplicated, as long as it's dublicated from the ground - up; not from the top - down.

The Teamsters didn't make Strong Union, rather, Strong Union made Teamsters Local 1108. Keeping in mind the pilots are the [strong] union.

Has anyone noticed "Olsen" never stopped wearing the yellow 2005 Strong Union - Assoc. Shared Aircraft Pilots (ASAP) lanyard? "Olsen" is way too calculating not to be making a point.

 

[netjetwife]

Isn't it amazing how the mail can pile up when you leave town for a few days... 7 yr old Anna felt honored to help her dad open his mail last night. Our entire family thanks the pilotgroup for the camaraderie that makes NJA a great place to be...

Cast, good post! Thanks for helping others to understand what StrongUnion is really all about.

 

[Mooneymite]

I will agree with you that a national union has greater influence and clout with policy makers. However, the question is whether these national unions have the best interests of the workers in mind. It is my opinion that in this day and age neither the IBT, nor, ALPA acts in the best interest of the pilots they represent.

IDEtoNJA

We certainly agree.

Both the IBT and the ALPA need a thorough house cleaning. What we differ on is whether we are going to do a better job of getting national representation by breaking away and further weakening them with an in-house union, by cleaning them up from inside, or by establishing a new union...not of fractional pilots, but a union of all workers regulated under the NRLA.

"Olsen's" recent post above carefully avoided addressing this portion of my post about him. I'm sure there is no significance in that since "Olsen" is just a Park City country boy.

 

[netjetwife]

MM, the issue you raised was not avoided. It was answered, but it seems you missed it. I suggest you read it again: Has anyone noticed "Olsen" never stopped wearing the yellow 2005 Strong Union - Assoc. Shared Aircraft Pilots (ASAP) lanyard? "Olsen" is way too calculating not to be making a point.

Those NJA pilots not on the property during the formation of StrongUnion will be able to learn important background information from NJASAP's website. Pay careful attention to the sections Our History and Our Future. ASAP is explained and the leadership's philosophy of organizing pilots (long-range) is mentioned, as well. This information is also a good refresher for those who were distracted by the contract dispute taking place at that time. I clearly recall the introduction of ASAP, but then I follow NJA Union events closely. Given the hectic pace of that time period I can well understand that the significance of ASAP may not have registered with some of the pilotgroup. NJW

 

[CastofThousands]

We certainly agree.

Both the IBT and the ALPA need a thorough house cleaning. What we differ on is whether we are going to do a better job of getting national representation by breaking away and further weakening them with an in-house union, by cleaning them up from inside, or by establishing a new union...not of fractional pilots, but a union of all workers regulated under the NRLA.

"Olsen's" recent post above carefully avoided addressing this portion of my post about him. I'm sure there is no significance in that since "Olsen" is just a Park City country boy.

ALPA has slowed the deterioration of the profession. In every instance listed within this thread a pilot initiated and followed through with the action - on behalf of the profession.

National representation is yesterday and very Twentieth Century. Unless the revolution from the rank and file professional pilot begins the evolution of re-organizing labor, not just at the National level ... but accross the Atlantic as well, the outlook is not too good. Cabatage and foreign ownership will soon fall as a result of globalization. At that point in time we will see Deregulation (a la 1978) Part 2. And, a National pilot union will become it's own worst enemy - too slow and too politically driven. More so than today and those Nationally represented pilot groups will be much worse off than the more fluid property specific independant associations (aka unions).

Go global and industry segment specific, or don't waste the time and effort. National representation is very Twentieth Century - welcome to the Twenty-First Century. It's a hell of a hill to climb, and unless the profession is prepared to take drastic measures (like a not-so-legal national system shutdown), it will be more of the same - slowing the deterioration of the profession.

IMHO,

 

[Dr Pepper]

How is this for Rah Rah...

If you don't fill out a card and send it in, your absence of a vote will equal a no vote to any union. Result equals our contract will be null and void.

More Rah Rah. You want to stay with the teamsters; that haven't lifted one finger to do anything for us and continue to take our money and use it to lobby for truck driver's? Go for it.

The main thing is that we vote in a union wether it is NJASAP or IBT with a 50% +1 margin. Without that we are flying without a contract.

Get your cards in. We need 100% involvement. You think it was bad prior to the 2005 contract? Try NO CONTRACT!!

Rah Rah? No, just the truth. Don't believe me? Call the union stewards.

Capt Dad - throttle back. Thanks to IDEtoNJA for getting it right, which is exactly what I said. The first lines were directed to you, the second was to everyone. Anyone who reads ibt1108.com or njasap.com knows there are certain people (read not all) who have absolutely no substance to their posts. "Whatever the pres wants to do, lets do it, and give no thought. Rah rah rah. Woo Hoo!" I filter that nonsense and hope others do the same. Again I say there is good poop here. I welcome good, intelligent debate.

 

[Helmsalee]

I was directly involved with the fight to change the age 60 law. The group generally credited with the change was APAAD. They were closely supported by SWAPA and SWA. On the other hand APA fought tooth and nail against right to the last minute. ALPA changed their position only after it became apparent that the law was going to change. The thing that made the change inevitable was ICAO changing their rule to 65 and the US having to accept it as a member. Once foreign pilots over 60 started flying in US airspace, telling American pilots that they could not was not going to last. BTW, I missed the cut by 9 days. No regrets, I think I'm going to like this better.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Good post. You are correct that in both these issues, the impetus came from outside ALPA.

However, I would point out that neither issue was resolved without the ALPA's involvement. When it comes to infulencing change, a national union will always have more clout, because (here's the cynic in me!), it has more money.

I'm trying to see your ultimate motivation here. Do you want us to become ALPA, or stay IBT? I'm guessing you want to stay IBT. Why are ALPA and IBT your shining examples of trade unionism?

What have the IBT done to improve the piloting profession?

What has their clout accomplished for us (and in so doing, provided a return on our dues investment)? And by "us," I mean fractional pilots, not "unionized labor" in general.

How does our decertification from the Teamsters result in weakening organized labor, when by definition we are still organized?

The Teamsters withdrew from the AFL-CIO. Is that not weakening organized labor? How do you know we won't be affiliating with the AFL-CIO when we become NJASAP? Would that offset leaving the IBT in your eyes?

How will our staying with the IBT accomplish the "house-cleaning" you say it needs? We sent a guy to the Airline Division to try to do that, and he resigned in disgust after just a year.

We've tried and failed to work within the IBT framework. That framework is designed for truck-drivers, not pilots.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Ultra Grump, you make my point, exactly.

APA and SWAPA have prospered in an environment ALPA created, but they have not contributed; in fact, they have weakened ALPA strength and unity by not joining forces.

Yes, they have done well short term. They are enjoying the fuits of ALPA efforts, but as ALPA goes, so go APA, SWAPA and all the other "independents".


SWAPA and APA did not do a thing to influence public law, or public policy. They only rode along and enjoyed the ride.

Not a legacy I'd want to be a part of.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Which pilot group's contract now sets the benchmark for domestic narrowbody flying, and by extrapolation every other category of other majors' payscales?