Look before you leap, NJASAP!

[B19 Flyer]

Realityman, thank you for your post.

I guess I have made my point that national representation is extremely important in the "big picture". Apparently you agree. I further agree that the IBT needs some significant changes if it is to fulfill its duties of representation.

Where I get confused is in the world of "He said/she said" between 1108 and IBT national. I read what Bill O. writes, I read what Hoffa writes and they do not jibe. As much as I trust and respect Olsen, I also know he is skilled at presenting "his-story" in a way favorable to his position. Hoffa is also "spinning the facts".

In most cases, the truth lies somewhere between the two advocates. I've had 40 years in aviation watching this stuff and I become more skeptical everyday. I've been lead astray by trusted leaders before who were doing their best, but they were just wrong. I should have asked more questions and demanded more answers.

You and I are in agreement in how we process our facts, but there is a difference in which facts we accept as the gospel. I am not discrediting what you say, but I'm not convinced the data you are using are "fact".

The good news is that I'm about done in this industry. The changes we are discussing will not affect me directly. I hope the crowd pushing for fragmentation is doing the right thing and it all works out. I really do. I only ask that we "look before we leap". There is far too much crowd following and thoughtless cheerleading to make me comfortable.

Look, forget the fact that it’s a union, let’s talk about basic business.

Every corporation needs horsepower one way or another. The money put toward IBT national gives 1108 horsepower if they need it. Once split off, they will lose that national standing with big brother. Netjets has Berkshire Hathaway. As an example, if something goes upside down, NJ has horsepower that no other fractional has.

There are too many unexpected things that can happen in aviation where a union feels that it is necessary to intervene. I say it that way, because in my opinion, air carriers the size of NJ can take care of their own, but when unions feel like that have to get involved, the best way to protect their pilots is to have all the resources available.

In good times it’s easy to believe that splitting away from IBT is a good thing because IBT wasn’t paying a lot of attention during the recent negotiations. Also, where everything is all fine and wonderful it is easy to believe that the “premium” that is being paid to IBT is wasted.

In fact, it’s an insurance policy that supplies the muscle that locally, NJASAP will never have. For the next 20 years, there may never be an issue that IBT national has to intervene in, but if there is an event, you realize how big a mistake that it was to need them and have them turn away laughing when you really need the help.

Splitting away from IBT is a huge mistake.

 

[Fozzy]

*yawn*

 

[netjetwife]

Yyyyaaaawwwnnn. Foz, that's contagious. Nudge me when something other than FUD is posted...

 

[gutshotdraw]

Splitting away from IBT is a huge mistake.

If B19 thinks it's a mistake, NJASAP is probably on the right track........

 

[netjetwife]

Not only are they on the right track, they're blazing a new trail in the frac industry. The majority of pilots posting here agree with NJASAP leaders that it's the right thing to do. Not to mention the 70% plus NJA pilots who have already voiced their determination to gain their independence by sending in cards and donations. For those involved in the collection, checking the mail isn't a chore--it's an honor.

A public thanks to each NJ pilot on the honor roll. 2000 of you so far...in just 3 weeks!! That's awesome! Your unity, camaraderie, and focus on the future is a source of pride that all NJ pilots (both A&I) can share. You do not need the Teamsters. You have one another, the support of your families, partnership with the Company, and the respect of your peers in aviation. Kudos to you all! NJW

 

[acaTerry]

quote]




Realtyman, you may not want to fund the truckers' fight, but you miss a very important truth: labor must stick together. .

This one line sums up the reason for NJASAP. Teamsters didn't stick with us, but was right there to take their money. To me this is like sending money to the bank and then not being allowed to withdraw it. My card is in.

 

[acaTerry]

She is entitled to her opinion and can say anything she wants, no matter how disrespectful it is to aviation professionals in the fractional as well as other aviation entities by her statements as to the method of which they have invested in their careers.
You are more guilty of that than ANYONE I have seen on this board.

I don't like unions from personal experience and have never seen a union do anything good for a company as a whole.
There's this place called NJA, heard of it?

She is nothing more than a pilot's wife. She hasn't invested in a career in aviation. She hasn't paid her dues, doesn't personally draw a paycheck and can only ride on the coat-tails of he husband.
This is particularly offensive. Any woman who goes through a career in aviation and sticks with her man is a gem. Having to be alone so many nights, be able to switch gears from head of household one week to settling back the next is not easy. Especially if you have kids. So she does not draw a check? BIG F-ING DEAL! Is that your measure of a human being? I rather like the idea that my wife raises decent, upstanding kids than chases money while the kids are out spraypainting walls and such. You must be divorced.

She writes pages to discredit my opinion of unions, yet when I point out facts and attitudes she has that are detrimental to the industry, she calls me names and says that I twist words. Not true.
You sound like a 4th grader crying to his teacher. Waah! NJW is picking on me!

See above...

 

[netjetwife]

Thanks, for sticking up for frac families, 'Terry. We have 3 kids and I do have to switch gears constantly. The lifestyle isn't easy and those frac families that are underpaid have it the worst. I can totally sympathize with them because a few years ago my husband was only paid 28K a year. Our frac families at the bottom of the ladder are hard pressed to make ends meet, much less be able to afford any breaks or treats to make the lifestyle easier. As a stay-home mom I'm in the most overlooked, under-respected class of workers out there. For the fudspinner to suggest that I don't respect non-pilot workers is total garbage.
Thanks again!
Netjetwife

PS The frac lifestyle requires kids to make a lot of sacrifices, too. Frac kids deserve to have one parent home with them full-time and as the children of professionals it damn well should be financially possibly. The fact that for many frac families it isn't is completely unacceptable. They deserve college-savings accounts, too. But how many of our underpaid frac pilots can put the money aside?

 

[cjs]

Thanks, for sticking up for frac families, 'Terry. We have 3 kids and I do have to switch gears constantly. The lifestyle isn't easy and those frac families that are underpaid have it the worst. I can totally sympathize with them because a few years ago my husband was only paid 28K a year. Our frac families at the bottom of the ladder are hard pressed to make ends meet, much less be able to afford any breaks or treats to make the lifestyle easier. As a stay-home mom I'm in the most overlooked, under-respected class of workers out there. For the fudspinner to suggest that I don't respect non-pilot workers is total garbage.
Thanks again!
Netjetwife

I feel like I'm watching one of those "Save the Children" infomercials. You and your husband made a CHOICE stick it out in aviation. Don't even try to compare yourself with someone who really is up s**t creek. Makes about as much sense as someone complaining about how hard it is to make a living polisihing turds. You knowingly walk into a lake of fire and want sympathy?

And what do you care what other people think about stay at home moms? Are you in it for yourself or your family? So much outrage, so much victimhood ..

PS The frac lifestyle requires kids to make a lot of sacrifices, too. Frac kids deserve to have one parent home with them full-time and as the children of professionals it damn well should be financially possibly. The fact that for many frac families it isn't is completely unacceptable. They deserve college-savings accounts, too. But how many of our underpaid frac pilots can put the money aside?

Nobody deserves anything they haven't earned. Who are you to decide what person A deserves over person B? You think pilots deserve more than A&P guys (pardon me, "support folk) because you're married to a pilot. Why the h*ll should anyone care what you think someone deserves?

Let them decide what they "deserve" when they negotiate their hiring package. If the company rejects it, either take your lumps or hit the road .. but don't drag anyone else into this BS.

 

[acaTerry]

I feel like I'm watching one of those "Save the Children" infomercials. You and your husband made a CHOICE stick it out in aviation. Don't even try to compare yourself with someone who really is up s**t creek. Makes about as much sense as someone complaining about how hard it is to make a living polisihing turds. You knowingly walk into a lake of fire and want sympathy?

And what do you care what other people think about stay at home moms? Are you in it for yourself or your family? So much outrage, so much victimhood ..



Nobody deserves anything they haven't earned. Who are you to decide what person A deserves over person B? You think pilots deserve more than A&P guys (pardon me, "support folk) because you're married to a pilot. Why the h*ll should anyone care what you think someone deserves?

Let them decide what they "deserve" when they negotiate their hiring package. If the company rejects it, either take your lumps or hit the road .. but don't drag anyone else into this BS.

Arrgh, methinks this clown needs the ole NJW boot

 

[realityman]

I feel like I'm watching one of those "Save the Children" infomercials. You and your husband made a CHOICE stick it out in aviation. Don't even try to compare yourself with someone who really is up s**t creek. Makes about as much sense as someone complaining about how hard it is to make a living polisihing turds. You knowingly walk into a lake of fire and want sympathy?

And what do you care what other people think about stay at home moms? Are you in it for yourself or your family? So much outrage, so much victimhood ..



Nobody deserves anything they haven't earned. Who are you to decide what person A deserves over person B? You think pilots deserve more than A&P guys (pardon me, "support folk) because you're married to a pilot. Why the h*ll should anyone care what you think someone deserves?

Let them decide what they "deserve" when they negotiate their hiring package. If the company rejects it, either take your lumps or hit the road .. but don't drag anyone else into this BS.

Someone needs a hug........

 

[B19 Flyer]

Someone needs a hug........

I agree.

All those poor FLOPS union supporters that have been waiting for over two years for 1108 to get it done. :crying:

 

[Willy21]

All those poor FLOPS union supporters that have been waiting for over two years for 1108 to get it done. :crying:

What is really sad is they have also been waiting on management to get it done for over two years. That is why they turned to the 1108.

 

[netjetwife]

I feel like I'm watching one of those "Save the Children" infomercials. I was sharing the family perspective with pilots who wished to discuss it. Nothing was asked of you. You and your husband made a CHOICE stick it out in aviation. And due to collective efforts backing good leadership it has paid off. The NJ pilots took control of their career destiny and the Options pilots are doing the same. Don't even try to compare yourself with someone who really is up s**t creek. Those who follow the frac industry are aware that I was actually comparing myself favorably with other frac spouses (who have a lot in common) because the NJ pilots are better paid. Makes about as much sense as someone complaining about how hard it is to make a living polisihing turds. You knowingly walk into a lake of fire and want sympathy? That's a personal choice I leave to the readers. I referred to economic inequities and the reality that the frac lifestyle isn't the norm and can be difficult. Those frac pilots being underpaid are the ones I sympathize with. If you don't that's your prerogative; they have a great deal of support from their peers so yours won't be missed.

And what do you care what other people think about stay at home moms? Are you in it for yourself or your family? So much outrage, so much victimhood .. You jumped into the middle of an ongoing conversation so you're misapplying the underlying tone of outrage. My family feels strongly that we are doing what is best for our children and we think that other frac families should be in the financial position to do likewise if they so choose. The pilots have the same job so their families should have similar opportunities.

Nobody deserves anything they haven't earned. Society at large believes that children deserve a good education. Parents view it as a responsibility. Frac pilots certainly earn (thus deserve) a salary that provides college funds for their kids. NJ kids have college savings accounts and Ops kids should, too. Who are you to decide what person A deserves over person B? You think pilots deserve more than A&P guys (pardon me, "support folk) because you're married to a pilot. Why the h*ll should anyone care what you think someone deserves? This isn't about personal opinion. I'm addressing economic reality and basic fairness. Obviously the frac pilots themselves (and for CS also the managers) are looking at the industry standard and comparing it to their own situation. I don't follow A&P compensation, but I think those workers should also get the going rate for their job skills. Parity isn't exclusive to pilots and I didn't suggest it is. I post on what I know and the causes that I follow. Let them decide what they "deserve" when they negotiate their hiring package. If the company rejects it, either take your lumps or hit the road .. but don't drag anyone else into this BS.

The Options pilots voted as a group to work together to improve their job situation--that's their legal right. There is a going rate for frac pilots and they are negotiating to get the contract they are due by virtue of the duties performed and their responsibility for lives and aircraft.

CJS, could you please tell us your job position, employer and family status so that we may understand the basis of your perspective? NJW

 

[B19 Flyer]

CJS, could you please tell us your job position, employer and family status so that we may understand the basis of your perspective? NJW

ROFL, that is the first question asked of me when I started to disagreee with the union supporters.

NJW, the only reason you ask is so the union mongers on this board can find ways to silence him, just as all of you have tried to silence me.

Whatever his job position, employer and family status is will be meaningless in this conversation because all the people on this board will make up whatever they want to just like they have me.

He makes sense and doesn't agree with you.

How long is it going to be before you begin calling him names like you do me?

 

[B19 Flyer]

What is really sad is they have also been waiting on management to get it done for over two years. That is why they turned to the 1108.

Wrong.

1108 was the "hired gunslinger" that replaced the prior union at NJ and got it done quickly.

1108 didn't get it done at FLOPS.

Don't blame management, they have a company to run.

1108 was hired by the union supporters to force a CBA on a company that traditionally management, clients or non-pilot employees sure as hell didn't want on the property.

The ecomomy is slipping, 1108 has yet to get it done.

The union supporters at FLOPS all need a hug. :crying:

 

[netjetwife]

What is really sad is they have also been waiting on management to get it done for over two years. That is why they turned to the 1108.

The path to a contract is typically paved with broken promises and the Options pilots have certainly had their share. That is why they turned to 1108 and stood up for their right to negotiate a contract. Before 1108 their efforts to improve things were unorganized. Under 1108 they went to the bargaining table and they're right on track. First contracts take an average of 3 years because management often drags the process out. The latest barrage of FUD directed at the Ops pilotgroup is a good indicator that they're making progress... The phrase--darkest before the dawn--is how I'd describe things in the final months before the NJ pilots got their 2005 contract. The process often follows a predictable pattern. Hang in there guys! There's light at the end of the tunnel... NJW

A request to board members: Please do not quote my posts without my permission (personal friends are exempt) my words are my own and lately it has been necessary to protect the integrity of my posts. Thanks for your understanding in this matter.

 

[Diesel]

A request to board members: Please do not quote my posts without my permission (personal friends are exempt) my words are my own and lately it has been necessary to protect the integrity of my posts. Thanks for your understanding in this matter.

Popcorn... Check
Beer.... Check

 

[Ultra Grump]

Lol!!

 

[SCT]

Quote:
A request to board members: Please do not quote my posts without my permission (personal friends are exempt) my words are my own and lately it has been necessary to protect the integrity of my posts. Thanks for your understanding in this matter.
Popcorn... Check
Beer.... Check


Diesel, you are going be getting a registered letter from NJW's attorney since you quoted her without permission. All of her gibberish is copyrighted don't you know.......