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Okay so I work at carrier A for 15 years, the company goes under. How do I get hired at carrier B? Do I apply? Do I get 15 year pay at carrier B? Do I go right to the left seat at Carrier B? Why would carrier B hire a 15 year Captain?$?
What happens to all the FO's at carrier B that are waiting for upgrade?
I like the discussion.

Sure you have to apply. Yes, if you have 15 years of seniority, you get 15 year pay. Sounds pretty good huh? So what are the wins for the company? They get to keep experience where it was. Therefore, if they get a pilot from Aloha that had 15 years of experience on 737, maybe he would be more valuable in a 737 than an A319 or a EMB145.

There is a great thread on this forum: Read the post by Airwhisky31 that is quoted (2 big paragraphs).

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/showthread.php?p=150806
 
So how does this national union work? One seniority number for life? One contract? What happens if a company goes under? Or am I way off on where you think this should be?

What not an association of unions? Kind of like states in a republic.

I think it best that the local still negotiate its own contract/working conditions. The local has to be the building block of the National union. It will keep the national "in touch" with the membership. It will do all the day-to-day administrative chores.

National will primarily set policy and minimum wages/working conditions. No local contract will be "approved" unless it falls in line with national guidelines. No group will be permitted to undercut another...even if the local's company cries that the national guidlines will bankrupt it and put everyone out of work.

National's other "big job" is to be an advocate for labor generally and pilots specifically in Washington.

The national seniority list is a tough (very tough!) issue. I've played with a couple of ideas. The most workable solution is starting at a certain date, national would issue a seniority number to each recipient of a commercial pilot's licence. At that point the commercial pilot will be required to pay an escalating "maintenance fee" to stay on the seniority list. As long as he pays his fees, even if he goes and teaches school for twenty years, he maintains his number. Any one who does not pay his fee, may be re-instated, but at the bottom of the list.

Won't affect anyone working today, but going forward (and, my! how time flies.), we will have every pilot on the list. Anyone who scabs, or works for sub-wages, will lose his number.

Just one idea...the devil is in the details. The ALPA has grappled with the idea for 50 years and hasn't come up with a solution...I must be crazy for running an idea up the flagpole!

First effort: Get unified in goals and set objectives. Watch big business scream!
 
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Sure you have to apply. Yes, if you have 15 years of seniority, you get 15 year pay. Sounds pretty good huh? So what are the wins for the company? They get to keep experience where it was. Therefore, if they get a pilot from Aloha that had 15 years of experience on 737, maybe he would be more valuable in a 737 than an A319 or a EMB145.
Had to quote and respond to this before I read the next.
Are you serious with that argument? Name one company that would buy onto that plan? Seriously, you have to sell that they should hire one pilot at 15 year wages when they could get 1.5-2 pilots at year 1 wages.
Better come up with a better sell.
Safety does not matter in the airline business. Just look at our governing body. Sad but true.
Still interested in this idea, but we may need a plan C.
 
National will primarily set policy and minimum wages/working conditions. No local contract will be "approved" unless it falls in line with national guidelines. No group will be permitted to undercut another...even if the local's company cries that the national guidlines will bankrupt it and put everyone out of work.

Love it. Ending the race to the bottom is a good start. I don't see us far apart in ideas, but I see leaving IBT as a start to moving forward.
 
Had to quote and respond to this before I read the next.
Are you serious with that argument? Name one company that would buy onto that plan? Seriously, you have to sell that they should hire one pilot at 15 year wages when they could get 1.5-2 pilots at year 1 wages.
Better come up with a better sell.
Safety does not matter in the airline business. Just look at our governing body. Sad but true.
Still interested in this idea, but we may need a plan C.

Admittedly, I'm not explaining it very well. It is a complex concept. Do a google search on it and educate yourself. I think it is a fantastic idea.
 
Safety does not matter in the airline business. Just look at our governing body.

Huh? The oversight has nothing to with safety.

It's like saying that running a stop sign and having an accident was the cop's fault for not stopping you when you ran the stoplight. No, the rules are there.
 
They're knocking at the front door, again...

ALPA has slowed the deterioration of the profession. In every instance listed within this thread a pilot initiated and followed through with the action - on behalf of the profession.

National representation is yesterday and very Twentieth Century. Unless the revolution from the rank and file professional pilot begins the evolution of re-organizing labor, not just at the National level ... but accross the Atlantic as well, the outlook is not too good. Cabatage and foreign ownership will soon fall as a result of globalization. At that point in time we will see Deregulation (a la 1978) Part 2. And, a National pilot union will become it's own worst enemy - too slow and too politically driven. More so than today and those Nationally represented pilot groups will be much worse off than the more fluid property specific independant associations (aka unions).

Go global and industry segment specific, or don't waste the time and effort. National representation is very Twentieth Century - welcome to the Twenty-First Century. It's a hell of a hill to climb, and unless the profession is prepared to take drastic measures (like a not-so-legal national system shutdown), it will be more of the same - slowing the deterioration of the profession.

IMHO,


U.S. to Propose Loosening
Rules on Airline Ownership


By DANIEL MICHAELS
May 13, 2008 9:27 a.m.

BRUSSELS -- In a move that could significantly boost international investments in airlines and lead to further consolidation, the U.S. government plans to propose relaxing world-wide rules restricting the ownership of air carriers.
U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Transportation Affairs John Byerly said in an interview that he plans to present the proposal to European Union negotiators at meetings on aviation deregulation in Slovenia on Thursday. The U.S. will propose that the EU jointly invite dozens of countries around the world to scrap restrictions that hamper cross-border investments in airlines, Mr. Byerly said.
The restrictions are enshrined in a global treaty from 1944 that states that an airline from any country must be owned and controlled by citizens of that country. This clause has been used to block foreign takeovers of airlines, has made cross-border airline mergers difficult, and has shielded weak carriers that otherwise would have gone bankrupt.
"This would reduce the barriers to cross-border investment," Mr. Byerly said.
Write to Daniel Michaels at [email protected]
 
Read that yesterday. I was wondering when it would find its way here. Wonder if the guys on the Regional/Majors board have read and understood it.
 

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