Look before you leap, NJASAP!

[gutshotdraw]

So, the election is clearly going to happen. Anybody know how long before ballots are sent out and what the timeline might be for the issue to be settled?

 

[Mooneymite]

Quo Vadis

82% in 1 month. NetJets Pilots are still united and very able to represent themselves.

Sigh....

Schrode, I guess I still haven't made it clear. Apparently you think I am attacking NJASAP.

It is great that the NetJets pilots are united. It is great that they are showing their solidarity. (Really!)

This thread is about the fractionalization of labor and the necessity of maintaining strong national (global, really) influence.

If I were opposed to NJASAP as the best move for this small group of pilots, I would have been posting my objections on the union board. This is not about NJASAP per se...(I think I've already posted that before.) The NetJets pilot group is a very small group. Their overall influence, even within the IBT, is....well, insignificant. However, fragmentation of labor as a trend is very disturbing to me.

This is not a question of membership voting to support their local leaders, this is a question of where our leaders are taking us.

That's it...this is not a membership issue, it is a leadership issue.

Quo Vadis?

 

[Schrode]

Sigh....

Schrode, I guess I still haven't made it clear. Apparently you think I am attacking NJASAP.


Quo Vadis?

No actually I could care less about your opinions. I was simply stating facts for those who are interested. Not sure I even read your post.

 

[netjetwife]

GSD, the time line going forward depends on the decision currently being made by Hoffa in response to the talks last week in CMH between the IBT and NJASAP. Basically, it boils down to this: Is Hoffa going to agree to a professional, amicable split or is he going to insist on a public full decertification campaign that could turn ugly? NJASAP is prepared for either route. I was told the high number of cards collected in a short time definitely impressed the IBT. The strong unity and organizational skills of the NJA pilots and their NJASAP leaders was particularly noted by Hoffa's representatives. In the meantime, NJASAP directors remain very busy planning the future and building the framework (Bylaws, policies, etc) to support an independent Union.

 

[netjetwife]

..... fragmentation of labor as a trend is very disturbing to me.

This is not a question of membership voting to support their local leaders, this is a question of where our leaders are taking us. That's it...this is not a membership issue, it is a leadership issue. ...

You see it as fragmenting, but many others view it as evolution and specializing. What sounds good, philosophically speaking, in practical application can become too large and unwieldy to respond in time and having many members from various industries just leads to a conflict of interests. The proverbial "Jack of all trades, master of none" has been the experience for NJA 1108 leaders who tried to work for frac industry improvements within the framework of the IBT. It wasn't possible; their efforts were met with resistance--not the help they expected.

One cannot separate the membership from the leadership on the issue of leaving the IBT. Had there been no interest on the part of the members the NJASAP leaders would be looking at empty mailboxes and talking to themselves on their message board. The opposite is true and Schrode's a perfect example of this reality. NJASAP is leading the way, but they are taking the NJ pilots (assuredly A and reportedly I) exactly where they want to go. 82% so far have given the NJASAP leaders their marching orders. The well supported independence movement is just as much a grass roots campaign as Strong Union was when it was propelled to the front by the NJ pilotgroup. In fact, NJ pilots have referred to NJASAP as StrongUnion 2.

 

[bmxandjets]

what's the percentage of NJ pilots who pay union dues? is it 100%? is there anyone that doesn't, and if so, why? thanks.

 

[Grizz]

BMX,

Currently all non-management pilots flying the line are dues paying members of IBT Local 1108. Even the management pilots have to pay a "service fee" to IBT 1108 that very closely equals what the dues would be for them.

That being said, we are an "agency shop." Pilots have the ability if they choose to be "fee payers" instead of full members. No one has chosen to do that because it really doesn't make sense. You still pay the same "fee" but you don't get to vote.

That same scenario would carry over under NJASAP.

 

[Grizz]

GSD -

Our attorneys estimate the time line to certification would be complete around the middle of July. Since the NMB is currently running 4 elections, it could get pushed back to around the 1st of August.

As NJW states, there is still the possibility of a deal with the IBT to do this outside the formal process of a NMB Representation Dispute. The time line for that is a little quicker (not much) but it provides for a more orderly transition.

We'll know by tomorrow at 13:30E which way we are going.

 

[Ultra Grump]

I wanna do what b19 does......she sounds like a true pro that should be proud.

lol all you do is bash unions.....well i think you non-union job sucks canal water....how ya like that??

just trying to speak your language.

Step away from the acid. You're hallucinating.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Is the IBT the answer? Maybe a part of the answer.
Is the ALPA the answer? Maybe a part of the answer.

What has the IBT done for the pilot profession? It is maintining an environment where labor has some influence in Washington.

I have a tough time answering some of your questions because they beg the question of "where do I really want to go?".

As you may have guessed, I have a dream. That dream can only become reality through a strong, unified union representing all pilots and affiliated with all working people.

You have answered none of my questions, and only raised more.

I agree that pilots are essentially whores - that's why the pay is so low. Many get into flying professionally for 2 reasons: 1) it's fun; and 2) they think it will get them chicks. This is why pilots cannot get pay to increase.

Look at the "pilot shortage" at the regionals. Generally, when there is a shortage of something, the price will increase. But instead of increasing pay to ease the shortage, all airline management has to do is lower mins. Go low enough and there will be plenty of starry-eyed and horny 20-somethings willing to fly a shiny jet for less.

So how does the NJA pilots leaving the IBT (or staying) have any effect on that?

How will staying with the IBT help to realize your dream?

Since you have a dream, you must have given some thought to how to get there. So how would we get there? Where is this magical "strong union representing all pilots" coming from? How would us remaining IBT help that become a reality?

I don't want family stories. I would like to know the answers to my questions. So far, your "look before you leap, NJASAP" equates to telling a person, about to cross the street to meet the woman of his dreams, "careful, you might get hit by a car!" Yep, he might, but it's not likely if he prepares, and looks both ways before crossing.

 

[Mooneymite]

You have answered none of my questions, and only raised more.
...

So how does the NJA pilots leaving the IBT (or staying) have any effect on that?

How will staying with the IBT help to realize your dream?

Since you have a dream, you must have given some thought to how to get there. So how would we get there? Where is this magical "strong union representing all pilots" coming from? How would us remaining IBT help that become a reality?

...
.

Ultragrump, if a strong union is the magical solution, fragmentation and fractionalization of the pilot force runs counter to the solution.

When I started flying professionally 40 years ago, there was, essentially, only one pilot union allied with the AFL-CIO. Our wages and working conditions were far better and the environment for labor in Washington was far better. Those two factors are tightly inter-related. We didn't realize it at that time, but labor's influence was already on the wan.

In 1978, de-regulation was pushed through. It was aimed squarely at the heart of airline labor. The basics had changed, but our union did not change. It has not changed significantly to this day, almost 30 years later.

My solution of a strong national union of ALL pilots allied with all workers bound by the NRLA, will never be realized as long as we put our parochial needs at the local level ahead of the over-all goal of unified political strength in Washington. This is not so much a matter of organization as it is of changing the attitude of "my interests first" at the grass-roots level.

Can I single-handedly organize all the pilots into one union? I cannot. However no one can until the pilots want to be organized into a single strong union with political clout.

If I can get people thinking about the dangers of fragmentation and the advantages of having a strong, unified union, perhaps I have made a first step in realizing my dream.

I'm glad you are asking the questions that you are asking, but it's easy to nay-say; what's your solution?

How does NJASAP fit into the resurrection of labor's strength in Washington?

 

[Fozzy]

Lay it out

So how does this national union work? One seniority number for life? One contract? What happens if a company goes under? Or am I way off on where you think this should be?

What not an association of unions? Kind of like states in a republic.

 

[Fozzy]

How does NJASAP fit into the resurrection of labor's strength in Washington?

How can it be worse than the representation we are currently getting.
We are getting nothing from IBT. They are actually working against the fractionals and GA's best interest.

 

[fischman]

So how does this national union work? One seniority number for life? One contract? What happens if a company goes under? Or am I way off on where you think this should be?

What not an association of unions? Kind of like states in a republic.

As soon as you get your ATP (or some other milestone), you get a seniority number for life. The contract is still negitoated by your local., If your company goes under, you still hold seniority on the list.

 

[Fozzy]

Okay so I work at carrier A for 15 years, the company goes under. How do I get hired at carrier B? Do I apply? Do I get 15 year pay at carrier B? Do I go right to the left seat at Carrier B? Why would carrier B hire a 15 year Captain?$?
What happens to all the FO's at carrier B that are waiting for upgrade?
I like the discussion.

 

[fischman]

Okay so I work at carrier A for 15 years, the company goes under. How do I get hired at carrier B? Do I apply? Do I get 15 year pay at carrier B? Do I go right to the left seat at Carrier B? Why would carrier B hire a 15 year Captain?$?
What happens to all the FO's at carrier B that are waiting for upgrade?
I like the discussion.

Sure you have to apply. Yes, if you have 15 years of seniority, you get 15 year pay. Sounds pretty good huh? So what are the wins for the company? They get to keep experience where it was. Therefore, if they get a pilot from Aloha that had 15 years of experience on 737, maybe he would be more valuable in a 737 than an A319 or a EMB145.

There is a great thread on this forum: Read the post by Airwhisky31 that is quoted (2 big paragraphs).

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/showthread.php?p=150806

 

[Mooneymite]

So how does this national union work? One seniority number for life? One contract? What happens if a company goes under? Or am I way off on where you think this should be?

What not an association of unions? Kind of like states in a republic.

I think it best that the local still negotiate its own contract/working conditions. The local has to be the building block of the National union. It will keep the national "in touch" with the membership. It will do all the day-to-day administrative chores.

National will primarily set policy and minimum wages/working conditions. No local contract will be "approved" unless it falls in line with national guidelines. No group will be permitted to undercut another...even if the local's company cries that the national guidlines will bankrupt it and put everyone out of work.

National's other "big job" is to be an advocate for labor generally and pilots specifically in Washington.

The national seniority list is a tough (very tough!) issue. I've played with a couple of ideas. The most workable solution is starting at a certain date, national would issue a seniority number to each recipient of a commercial pilot's licence. At that point the commercial pilot will be required to pay an escalating "maintenance fee" to stay on the seniority list. As long as he pays his fees, even if he goes and teaches school for twenty years, he maintains his number. Any one who does not pay his fee, may be re-instated, but at the bottom of the list.

Won't affect anyone working today, but going forward (and, my! how time flies.), we will have every pilot on the list. Anyone who scabs, or works for sub-wages, will lose his number.

Just one idea...the devil is in the details. The ALPA has grappled with the idea for 50 years and hasn't come up with a solution...I must be crazy for running an idea up the flagpole!

First effort: Get unified in goals and set objectives. Watch big business scream!

 

[Fozzy]

Sure you have to apply. Yes, if you have 15 years of seniority, you get 15 year pay. Sounds pretty good huh? So what are the wins for the company? They get to keep experience where it was. Therefore, if they get a pilot from Aloha that had 15 years of experience on 737, maybe he would be more valuable in a 737 than an A319 or a EMB145.

Had to quote and respond to this before I read the next.
Are you serious with that argument? Name one company that would buy onto that plan? Seriously, you have to sell that they should hire one pilot at 15 year wages when they could get 1.5-2 pilots at year 1 wages.
Better come up with a better sell.
Safety does not matter in the airline business. Just look at our governing body. Sad but true.
Still interested in this idea, but we may need a plan C.

 

[Fozzy]

National will primarily set policy and minimum wages/working conditions. No local contract will be "approved" unless it falls in line with national guidelines. No group will be permitted to undercut another...even if the local's company cries that the national guidlines will bankrupt it and put everyone out of work.

Love it. Ending the race to the bottom is a good start. I don't see us far apart in ideas, but I see leaving IBT as a start to moving forward.

 

[fischman]

Had to quote and respond to this before I read the next.
Are you serious with that argument? Name one company that would buy onto that plan? Seriously, you have to sell that they should hire one pilot at 15 year wages when they could get 1.5-2 pilots at year 1 wages.
Better come up with a better sell.
Safety does not matter in the airline business. Just look at our governing body. Sad but true.
Still interested in this idea, but we may need a plan C.

Admittedly, I'm not explaining it very well. It is a complex concept. Do a google search on it and educate yourself. I think it is a fantastic idea.