Legacy Bashfest - Bring it on!

[Uncle Sparky]

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Are you still flying or medically inapt..... you need some serious opthalmic assistance....... may I recommend the bottoms of beer bottles as a standby...should be thick enough.

Now THAT'S the spirit!!

 

[Silver Wings]

The selection was made by non-aviator Army Military Intelligence Officers because they liked the Lockheed Martin sensor suite better than the Northrup Grumman electronics package carried by the Gulfstream. The original ROC (Required Operational Characteristics) was rewritten so as to include the performance capabilities of the EMB-145 so that the acquisition process could function on a competitive bid basis. With the original ROC, the only qualified entrants were the G450/G500/G550.

It's a shame, the military is now going to qualify a whole bunch of Army pilots to be regional first officers instead of corporate captains. And yes, the deal is contingent on Embraer building an assembly plant in Florida.GV

My opinion, it made a lot of sense to stick with the G450 ...... but then $$$ spoke on this deal......

Just perhaps the original ROC was written around Gulfstream..... and wasn't really 'required'.... not the first time that's happened. I really can't see a giant like Lockheed bedding down with a 'slug' if a g-string was the only viable solution.........
Let's face it ...this is one of those typical compromise deals where the Legacy makes econimc and performance sense.......once we've extracted surgically the aircrew ego element.
Sure, this isn't always going to be the case for the military or the civil..... but it will keep happening for sure.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

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1) Hans Wocke. Theres one.

.......somehow.......I can imagine even he shuddered just a tad when he took a step back from the drawing board. Not the good kind of shudder, mind you. The one you get when you realize that at the end of the night, the girl you've been hitting on at the bar all night might really be a man. The chill you feel when you hear the proctologist snapping on the gloves behind you. That light headed feeling of doom that overcomes you when the woman standing across from you in the white dress says "I do"..........

 

[Silver Wings]

.......somehow.......I can imagine even he shuddered just a tad when he took a step back from the drawing board. Not the good kind of shudder, mind you. The one you get when you realize that at the end of the night, the girl you've been hitting on at the bar all night might really be a man. The chill you feel when you hear the proctologist snapping on the gloves behind you. That light headed feeling of doom that overcomes you when the woman standing across from you in the white dress says "I do"..........

The 'feelin' came about him as he realised he'd drawn the wings the wrong way round !

But with true German efficiency it was too late, as they'd already started the production run..........


Heh Spanky...... are you trying to push me into defending the Hansa ? No can do buddy.

 

[CatYaaak]

Can we get back to the point. The main planes I am using for comparison outside or reliability are the II, III, and IV.

This is why you're so friggin' funny Mr. Demo pilot.....that you honestly think you can compare the two without looking like a sap. You can't even beat the perf numbers of 604 Challengers, Falcon 2000EXs, etc, OR the DOC's for any of those. Just how do you justify going so slow at more $$s per hour?

And, unlike your oompa-loompa friendly Legacy, they're airplanes normal people can actually stand up in. Here's a news flash!......people actually CARE about that, and even EXPECT it for $20+ million. You'd do better to compare the Legacy to other, smaller cross-sectioned airframes because all you have there is a low/slow flying pencil that carries a lot of gas.

In fact, everything you write regarding performance comparisons or reliablilty of either the Legacy or other aircraft are either your "feelings" or as you "imagine" them...you offer absolutely NOTHING in terms of facts.

"Whistling Shltcan of Death".....god, that's funny!

 

[Silver Wings]

"Whistling Shltcan of Death".....god, that's funny!

rest of is a point of view but that above is b...s prime order.

ERJ's/Legacy have just about 6 million hours to date.....and zero injuries/deaths associated with the aircraft......... by the way 6 million hours is a lot.......you won't of seen those sort of numbers with a Falcon/Guléfstream/Challenger fleet.....and let's face it.....they've all had 'incidents' for one reason or another.

Point is....critque the Legacy on a field of rationality......... you've been doin OK so far....... but this below the belt.

 

[banned username 2]

rest of is a point of view but that above is b...s prime order.

ERJ's/Legacy have just about 6 million hours to date.....and zero injuries/deaths associated with the aircraft......... by the way 6 million hours is a lot.......you won't of seen those sort of numbers with a Falcon/Guléfstream/Challenger fleet.....and let's face it.....they've all had 'incidents' for one reason or another.

Point is....critque the Legacy on a field of rationality......... you've been doin OK so far....... but this below the belt.

Let's remember the "Whistling Shítcan of Death" analogy came from someone who flew over 2,000 of those 6 million hours, I'd say he is a pretty dämn reliable source on the "qualities" of this tube...

 

[Silver Wings]

Let's remember the "Whistling Shítcan of Death" analogy came from someone who flew over 2,000 of those 6 million hours, I'd say he is a pretty dämn reliable source on the "qualities" of this tube...

So...let me get this right....... numbers are good for calculating Falcon/Gulfstream things............ but when the numbers go the other way, then we stop using numbers and rely on 'opinion'........

I'm glad we sort of agree.

It all boils down to opinion in the end......... we all have a different take......

Some will take a Gulfstream / Falcon and (and incrasing) some will take a Legacy........
The 'numbers' are just not going to the final part of the issue.

 

[westwind driver]

"Personally, disregarding book numbers, facts and figures, I like the legacy." Yeah, let's disregard all the facts, numbers and figures, they don't really mean anything. This is truly a pathetic argument.

As for your resale example, again, simply retarded.




.

What? I simply can't just like an aircraft just as it is? I like it. I could care less if it only went 1000 miles, to me, its still a nice plane.

 

[semperfido]

once you go G you never go back

 

[banned username 2]

So...let me get this right....... numbers are good for calculating Falcon/Gulfstream things............ but when the numbers go the other way, then we stop using numbers and rely on 'opinion'........

I'm glad we sort of agree.

It all boils down to opinion in the end......... we all have a different take......

Some will take a Gulfstream / Falcon and (and incrasing) some will take a Legacy........
The 'numbers' are just not going to the final part of the issue.

Number are good, problem is no one has posted any numbers for the "Whistling Shítcan of Death" that dispell the fact that the Gulfstreams run circles around it (performance wise) all day long... The only thing the Lagacy has going for it is it's cheap... But then again, so is a Yugo...

 

[Uncle Sparky]

Heh Spanky...... are you trying to push me into defending the Hansa ? No can do buddy.

Nope Silver Wang........just intertaining my own childish perversions?! My knowledge of the Legacy doesn't extend beyond my observation of the miles of runway that I've watched the ERJ consume at my local airport. I take it you like the little fellas? Why is it that they seem to eat so much runway? Are they being really conservative with the power or do those engines produce the thrust equivalent of a standard household oscillating fan?

 

[Bad-Andy]

After more than 4000 hours in the "Whistling $hitcan of Death" (600 or so in the Legacy), I can say it is a good platform for it's designed mission. It is made as a cheaper replacement for older (worn out) G2's. I've never seen it compared to the G4s or G5s. It competes head to head with HS-125s and C-Xs. It is an affordable way for companies to step up from a medium cabin to a smaller large cabin jet. It will never compare to a G4 or 5 nor will it compare to a Global. But, just because it is in a different (lessor) category doesn't make it crappy. Anyways..... Flame retardant suit on.....

 

[Silver Wings]

After more than 4000 hours in the "Whistling $hitcan of Death" (600 or so in the Legacy), I can say it is a good platform for it's designed mission. It is made as a cheaper replacement for older (worn out) G2's. I've never seen it compared to the G4s or G5s. It competes head to head with HS-125s and C-Xs. It is an affordable way for companies to step up from a medium cabin to a smaller large cabin jet. It will never compare to a G4 or 5 nor will it compare to a Global. But, just because it is in a different (lessor) category doesn't make it crappy. Anyways..... Flame retardant suit on.....

Exactly the point. (You can add G200's along with the H125 and C-X and I suppose the CL300...but that seems like quite a worthwhile bird).

If you really need the range take the G4/5 G-X, but if you don't then the legacy should be on the list to look at....that's been the whole point all along.

 

[Bad-Andy]

If you really need the range take the G4/5 G-X, but if you don't then the legacy should be on the list to look at....

That's not what I'm getting at. There is a heck of a lot more than just the range or price that goes into the decision. The cabin height is a huge deal for some purchasers. For others, the world wide support network that Gulfstream has in place is more important than cost. Getting stuck in Africa waiting for a part to come in from Embraer can cost a lot of time and money (I know because it happenned to me more than once...), negating the savings on the initial purchase price. Any time we got stuck, guess what came to the rescue... A beautiful G5.

Anyways... My point was why the heck are we trying to compare the two??? They are different aircraft with different missions. The G4/G5 kills the Legacy on range, speed, altitude, comfort, and support around the world. But, what about all the companies that fly domestic, couple of thousand mile legs, that like the comfort, but can't afford a Gulfstream? That is where the Legacy comes in. It is a different niche. On those short (relatively speaking) legs, the Legacy is the same speed, same comfortable ride, and a lot cheaper.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

Anyways... My point was why the heck are we trying to compare the two???

...cause' some Legacy pilot initiated this whole novel......

It is a different niche. On those short (relatively speaking) legs, the Legacy is the same speed, same comfortable ride, and a lot cheaper.

I think that's the point the "pro-everyotherjet" people were trying to make.

 

[Silver Wings]

Nope Silver Wang........just intertaining my own childish perversions?! My knowledge of the Legacy doesn't extend beyond my observation of the miles of runway that I've watched the ERJ consume at my local airport. I take it you like the little fellas? Why is it that they seem to eat so much runway? Are they being really conservative with the power or do those engines produce the thrust equivalent of a standard household oscillating fan?

I'm just a sucker for the underdog..... Heh there are so many bashin the Legacy i thought somebody should at least point out the other side of the story. Sure I like em.... have flown in them, and Gulftsreams (GIVSP, GV, Galaxy and F2000 and F20, H800XP, BE400A, CE750 etc etc) PAX only.....(actually the only way to form a realistic judgement). I'm engineer, so you get to see both sides.

There seem to be some Legacy jocks now defending the little 'un..... so I don't need to be into this anymore...and I got a life to lead.

So....back to your points.

Watch how much runway a g-string uses with 40+ pax and luggage on board........!!!!

Anyway, the Legacy is basically an ERJ135 with the highest thurst engines available for the ERJ-145 (The R-R AE3007 A1E.....)......OK so they ain't Tay's but they're still pushin and at ISA+22C about the highest flat rated about and with FADEC's.


On the basis there are never any Legacy numbers.....I thought I'd add this into the pot. Sure they aren't going to set hearts on fire...but it does the job.

SMO to TEB 24kt tail wind (Boeing 85%) (Climb and descent with wind. M0.78 FL410 Flight time 4:52 with fuel a shade under 10,000lbs, carrying 8 pax and baggage (about 2,000lb load), temps (ISA +9 at SMO 85%July temp).

TEB to SMO 68kt headwind (Boeing 85%) (Climb and descent with wind. M0.78 FL390 (OK wrong but only a calc) Flight time 5:54 with fuel a shade under 13,100lbs, carrying 8 pax and baggage (about 2,000lb load), temps (ISA +13 at TEB 85%July temp).

Only aircraft that I see competes on the value stakes is the CL300...and that is a might less of a cabin (65% less cabin volume) for a 4 to 5 hour run and a whole lot less baggage capacity (not even half the baggage in fact 240cu ft to 106 cu ft)....but there are gonna be different views on this for sure.

I haven't flown on a CL300. Have flown a CL604.... nice, quiet....wide.....SHORT. looking forward to trying a CL300 someday.

 

[Silver Wings]

That's not what I'm getting at. There is a heck of a lot more than just the range or price that goes into the decision. The cabin height is a huge deal for some purchasers. For others, the world wide support network that Gulfstream has in place is more important than cost. Getting stuck in Africa waiting for a part to come in from Embraer can cost a lot of time and money (I know because it happenned to me more than once...), negating the savings on the initial purchase price. Any time we got stuck, guess what came to the rescue... A beautiful G5.

Anyways... My point was why the heck are we trying to compare the two??? They are different aircraft with different missions. The G4/G5 kills the Legacy on range, speed, altitude, comfort, and support around the world. But, what about all the companies that fly domestic, couple of thousand mile legs, that like the comfort, but can't afford a Gulfstream? That is where the Legacy comes in. It is a different niche. On those short (relatively speaking) legs, the Legacy is the same speed, same comfortable ride, and a lot cheaper.

I think we basically agree.

 

[GVFlyer]

Your economic model is simplistic and absurd, not to mention naive; your assumptions are invalid. When Gulfstream sells an airplane it is not just the sales exec and the CEO who are involved, the company has fully staffed legal and financial departments to help with purchasing strategies. Issues of tax, depreciation, amortization and whether direct purchase or lease is most cost effective, must be determined.

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Ah, but resale value is not that important in this case. Using a G-IV as an example (with a V the Legacy looks even better I think)...

Your 35 million dollar Peachjet will resell for say, 75 percent of its value (if you buy a new one) to the dealer.

The most expensive Gulfstream I listed sold for 31.9 million new; the least expensive $24 million. All sold at between 87% and 90.6% of their new purchase price. None were sold by Gulfstream (the "dealer"). Gulfstream has no preowned GIV's available, nor any GIV derivatives. They were sold by brokers: Bloomer deVere, Wealth and Jet Brokers.

Even if my 21 million dollar EBJ is worth ZERO I am going to come out fairly even.

No, the loss of value will be your cost of ownership.

I am paying financing on a smaller principle (read lower interest!)

Which may or may not be an advantage depending upon whether or not you can charge it off.

and the money I saved (14 million) is earning money. (Let's just assume 7 percent a year for grins - I just brought in13.54 million over ten years for my money).

So: GIV total outlay 35.
Resale of 35 * .75 is 26.25 m

EMB outlay 21m - 21m depreciation is zero.
13 m compounded 7 percent over 10 years equals 27.54 million.

If legal and Gulfstream Financial Services determine that in your particular situation it is better advised to lease rather than take the accelerated depreciation, there is a purchase price, but no capital outlay, just a monthly payment.

Legacy wins by nearly 1.3 million not factoring interest expense and DOC. Point being is resale value doesn't necessarily matter that much because my plane is so much more affordable. My money and my plane are working for me at 35 million.

Disregarding your other erroneous assumptions, once you adjust the DOC for the speed differential between the G450/G550 and the Legacy, the difference in direct operating cost is 9% not counting Gulfstream's retained value which would further reduce the differential.

GV

 

[banned username 2]

All that good info aside, who wants to ride in a "Whistling Shítcan of Death" anyhow???

That is the best analogy I have heard, I am still laughing at that one!

"Whistling Shítcan of Death"

Your killin' me!