Legacy Bashfest - Bring it on!

[Dumbledore]

Embraer = "Whistling Sh!tcan of Death" After 2000 hours in that tub my ears are still ringing...

Hilarious!

Falcon's are for sure the best deal going.

Gotta diagree there! There's as much power in just ONE RR Spey or TAY as there is in ALL THREE TFEs on a DA50/900. Sure three engines are nice but three engines with a widely known reputation for failure isn't necessarily the best trade off. I'll take a Rolls any day of the week!

We have a GIV also and it's never given us any problems. Imagine how much better an airplane performance-wise they'd be if they would put some slats on those things. Think i'll work out an STC for that and make millions. I'd bet those numbers would be impressive.

The G-V is already impressive. I think you've been given the numbers here already but I'll just add that the wing on the G-V is, in a word, astonishing. In simple terms, it achieves, without leading edge devices, what everyone else has had to add complexity and expensive engineering to make the wing more active to do - not to mention more places for your hydraulic fluid to find its way to freedom.

 

[LegacyDriver]

My PDA is not refreshing web pages until after I post a new reply. Very odd. Apologies for apparent abrupt shifts in the coversation to all.

...if you add in the fact that the Gulfstreams are actually worth something on the used market - it may actually be cheaper to fly the Gulfstream then the Brazilian pig.
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Ah, but resale value is not that important in this case. Using a G-IV as an example (with a V the Legacy looks even better I think)...

Time value of money baby. Just rounding in my head here and I admit the model is over simplified...but...go with me here for a moment.

Your 35 million dollar Peachjet will resell for say, 75 percent of its value (if you buy a new one) to the dealer. Even if my 21 million dollar EBJ is worth ZERO I am going to come out fairly even.

I am paying financing on a smaller principle (read lower interest!) and the money I saved (14 million) is earning money. (Let's just assume 7 percent a year for grins - I just brought in13.54 million over ten years for my money).

So: GIV total outlay 35.
Resale of 35 * .75 is 26.25 m

EMB outlay 21m - 21m depreciation is zero.
13 m compounded 7 percent over 10 years equals 27.54 million.

Legacy wins by nearly 1.3 million not factoring interest expense and DOC. Point being is resale value doesn't necessarily matter that much because my plane is so much more affordable. My money and my plane are working for me at 35 million.

 

[westwind driver]

mmmdonut, check the numbers. The Legacy needs over 5500' to go 3200 nm at Mach .74. The G450 needs 5450' to go 4350 nm at M.80. The G350 needs 5050' to go 3800 nm at M. 80.


See what everyone is talking about? Legacy can't even come close.

Lets see here... M.74 vs. M.80

420 KTAS vs. 450 KTAS In still air, assuming the Legacy only goes 3200nm, thats 7 hous and 37 minutes.
For the Gulfstreams, thats 7 hours.

For the price difference, I can afford to arrive 40 minutes behine a Gulfstream. Yea, Mr. Gulfstream might get there sooner, but he needs that extra time to make it to more business meetings so he can make more money to pay for his G-string.

Personally, disregarding book numbers, facts and figures, I like the legacy. I too think it's a good airplane. I have friends who fly the ERJs for American Eagle and they don't have a single serious complaint. One of them has flown the legacy and feels overall, its a good package.

My $0.02

 

[Silver Wings]

Personally, ....... I like the Legacy. I too think it's a good airplane.
My $0.02

Another martyr to the cause.

You do realise these guys will burn you at the stake as a heretic ! You are clearly not reading from the good book....(known to the annointed as the gospel according to Bryan..... that's Moss to you !).

Mind you it's all a step up from a Westwind eh! (That's a joke.....OK...no hard feelings

As the whole point of the Legacy is a money thing anyway. (Value for money)
So there really isn't any point debating with pilots....since when did a pilot have any idea about money eh ! Hell, anybody with any sense about money would be doing something else.

sizzle !

 

[capt_zman]

"Personally, disregarding book numbers, facts and figures, I like the legacy." Yeah, let's disregard all the facts, numbers and figures, they don't really mean anything. This is truly a pathetic argument.

As for your resale example, again, simply retarded.




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[Valkyrie]

Just to bring some fact: the Rio-Sul landing accident in december 1998 occured while the aircraft touched down at a velocity four times faster than the maximum it was designed for.

Imagine any aircraft landing with a sink rate of about 2500ft/min...

 

[prpjt]

.
By your admission you are making a case in simplified terms. This simply cannot be done when discussing a corporate jet aquisition. Taxes and depreciation schedules are strong players in this arena.

Most companies that are in the 20 - 40 million dollar jet game are not buying a jet to save money. They are trying to offset mind boggling net profits.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Just to bring some fact: the Rio-Sul landing accident in december 1998 occured while the aircraft touched down at a velocity four times faster than the maximum it was designed for.

Imagine any aircraft landing with a sink rate of about 2500ft/min...

And still taxiing off the runway under its own power with no serious injuries...

 

[NJAFracPilot]

Personally, disregarding book numbers, facts and figures, I like the legacy. I too think it's a good airplane. I have friends who fly the ERJs for American Eagle and they don't have a single serious complaint. One of them has flown the legacy and feels overall, its a good package.

My $0.02

Yeah, right, disregarding all the facts, you like the Legacy. And you're what, basing this on your vast aviation experience? Have you noticed that all the experienced pilots on the board don't want anything to do with the "Whistling $hitcan of Death"?

Guys like Silverwings, who has to have something to do with Legacy sales, are trying to screw you by filling the industry with flakey airplanes that you don't have to pay pilots squat to fly.

Aren't you the rookie that's asking the dumb questions about pilot flying incapacitation on another thread? Maybe you ought to just listen on this one.

 

[SkyGirl]

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Ah, but resale value is not that important in this case. Using a G-IV as an example (with a V the Legacy looks even better I think)...

Time value of money baby. Just rounding in my head here and I admit the model is over simplified...but...go with me here for a moment.

Your 35 million dollar Peachjet will resell for say, 75 percent of its value (if you buy a new one) to the dealer. Even if my 21 million dollar EBJ is worth ZERO I am going to come out fairly even.

I am paying financing on a smaller principle (read lower interest!) and the money I saved (14 million) is earning money. (Let's just assume 7 percent a year for grins - I just brought in13.54 million over ten years for my money).

So: GIV total outlay 35.
Resale of 35 * .75 is 26.25 m

EMB outlay 21m - 21m depreciation is zero.
13 m compounded 7 percent over 10 years equals 27.54 million.

Legacy wins by nearly 1.3 million not factoring interest expense and DOC. Point being is resale value doesn't necessarily matter that much because my plane is so much more affordable. My money and my plane are working for me at 35 million.

Uh-Oh! PC kid got a new Texas Instruments Business Analyst calculator, but he doesn't know how to use it.

Apparently, or how to read either. Looking at GV's post the most expensive GIV he listed cost less than $32 million and it doesn't take a math whiz to figure out they all sold for between 85 and 90 percent of what they cost new.

Common sense should be a player here, too. A Chevy Aveo would be less expensive to own and operate than a Bentley, but the quality of the experience, or the lack thereof, matters too.

I occasionally get to travel from Andrews Air Force Base. It's clear that our nation's military picked Gulfstreams and Boeings to insure the safety and security of the country's leaders. They must be a good deal because we all know the goverment always goes with the lowest bidder.

-SkyGirl-

 

[CarjCapt]

<<<It's clear that our nation's military picked Gulfstreams and Boeings to insure the safety and security of the country's leaders.>>>

Not withstanding the above have "Made in the USA" label on their tag.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

The Legacy is the greatest airplane ever built..........save for, maybe the Hansa Jet! And will someday rank up there in the same annals as the mighty Hansa. Come to think of it.............I'm going to start a "Hansa Bashfest" thread, in anticipation of the great debate that should follow! Then they'll see!

 

[Gearmunky]

The Legacy will soon prove that you just can't make Chicken Salad out of Chicken SH!T

 

[voteno]

The Legacy is the greatest airplane ever built..........save for, maybe the Hansa Jet! And will someday rank up there in the same annals as the mighty Hansa. Come to think of it.............I'm going to start a "Hansa Bashfest" thread, in anticipation of the great debate that should follow! Then they'll see!

The Hansa is just a 30 year old Embraer! Whistling Sh!tcan of Death says it all! Ask yourelf why it only costs 15 million? Walla there is your answer! The only thing Embraer has going for them is all the Brazillian hookers on their payroll that blow the stupid American bean counters!

 

[Silver Wings]

Uncle Spanky !!?!!! (OK Sparky)

goddamit !! It says you're a Lear 30 series driver............. look behind you. There is no way you can critique a Legacy.

At least the G-string / Falcon guys have great aircraft..... makes for a fair fight.

By the way, Lockheed Martin recently went with the ERJ/Legacy airframe up against the Gulfstream airframe for a US Gov't contract (for the Army and the Navy) ......and won. Yeah baby.......!!!!!

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/systems/acs.htm

That means they're gonna be buildin em in Florida.....home of the brave......or is that bathed.

I still don't quite get it....why all the hostility..... The Legacy is gonna take some business in the market....that's all. Most G and F buyers are not gonna change anyway.

 

[Muddauber]

<<<It's clear that our nation's military picked Gulfstreams and Boeings to insure the safety and security of the country's leaders.>>>

Not withstanding the above have "Made in the USA" label on their tag.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but the military has made some mistakes in the past:

Air Force: British BAE 800s for flight check, Italian Alenia G222s for tactical operations in South America, Swiss - Raytheon modified PC-9s for UPT and Israeli Astras for the DC National Guard.

Coast Guard: French Falcon 20s for maritime patrol and French Aerospatial Dauphins to improve their pilots' swimming skills.

Army: Irish Shorts C-23 Sherpa (330/360) because Sen. Byrd pork-barreled them into the country because their maintenance facility is in West Virginia.


If you're trying to say, "Buy American!" good on you; otherwise kiss my a$$.

Muddy

 

[Uncle Sparky]

MMMMMUUWWAAAA HHAAAA HHAAAAA!!!!!! HHHAAA!!!


Hansa RULES Dude!! Long live the Hansa!!

 

[Uncle Sparky]

Uncle Spanky !!?!!! (OK Sparky)

goddamit !! It says you're a Lear 30 series driver............. look behind you. There is no way you can critique a Legacy.

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Okay........you need to step slowly away from the computer. Now......I believe you may have misplaced your sense of humor. Look at me for example. As you've pointed out.......I've spent thousands of hours compressed in the fetal position(Bill Lear must've been 4feet tall!) in the front of pressurized pencil.....now there's a sense of humor. Do you honestly know of anybody who likes the way a Hansa looks, much less the way it performs? I'm thinking the majority feel the same way about the Jungle Junk. Although it's not quite as ugly, it is a slug, no matter what numbers the kid wants to paste on his argument! Now, go back to the computer.......just thought the debate was turning a bit flaccid?!

 

[Silver Wings]

Okay........Do you honestly know of anybody who likes the way a Hansa looks, much less the way it performs? I'm thinking the majority feel the same way about the Jungle Junk. Although it's not quite as ugly, it is a slug, no matter what numbers the kid wants to paste on his argument! Now, go back to the computer.......just thought the debate was turning a bit flaccid?!

¨

1) Hans Wocke. Theres one.

2) Not quite as ugly......! Are you still flying or medically inapt..... you need some serious opthalmic assistance....... may I recommend the bottoms of beer bottles as a standby...should be thick enough.

3) not slug..........caterpillar maybe.....

 

[GVFlyer]

By the way, Lockheed Martin recently went with the ERJ/Legacy airframe up against the Gulfstream airframe for a US Gov't contract (for the Army and the Navy) ......and won. Yeah baby.......!!!!!

The selection was made by non-aviator Army Military Intelligence Officers because they liked the Lockheed Martin sensor suite better than the Northrup Grumman electronics package carried by the Gulfstream. The original ROC (Required Operational Characteristics) was rewritten so as to include the performance capabilities of the EMB-145 so that the acquisition process could function on a competitive bid basis. With the original ROC, the only qualified entrants were the G450/G500/G550.

It's a shame, the military is now going to qualify a whole bunch of Army pilots to be regional first officers instead of corporate captains. And yes, the deal is contingent on Embraer building an assembly plant in Florida.

GV

 

[Uncle Sparky]

¨


Are you still flying or medically inapt..... you need some serious opthalmic assistance....... may I recommend the bottoms of beer bottles as a standby...should be thick enough.

Now THAT'S the spirit!!

 

[Silver Wings]

The selection was made by non-aviator Army Military Intelligence Officers because they liked the Lockheed Martin sensor suite better than the Northrup Grumman electronics package carried by the Gulfstream. The original ROC (Required Operational Characteristics) was rewritten so as to include the performance capabilities of the EMB-145 so that the acquisition process could function on a competitive bid basis. With the original ROC, the only qualified entrants were the G450/G500/G550.

It's a shame, the military is now going to qualify a whole bunch of Army pilots to be regional first officers instead of corporate captains. And yes, the deal is contingent on Embraer building an assembly plant in Florida.GV

My opinion, it made a lot of sense to stick with the G450 ...... but then $$$ spoke on this deal......

Just perhaps the original ROC was written around Gulfstream..... and wasn't really 'required'.... not the first time that's happened. I really can't see a giant like Lockheed bedding down with a 'slug' if a g-string was the only viable solution.........
Let's face it ...this is one of those typical compromise deals where the Legacy makes econimc and performance sense.......once we've extracted surgically the aircrew ego element.
Sure, this isn't always going to be the case for the military or the civil..... but it will keep happening for sure.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

¨

1) Hans Wocke. Theres one.

.......somehow.......I can imagine even he shuddered just a tad when he took a step back from the drawing board. Not the good kind of shudder, mind you. The one you get when you realize that at the end of the night, the girl you've been hitting on at the bar all night might really be a man. The chill you feel when you hear the proctologist snapping on the gloves behind you. That light headed feeling of doom that overcomes you when the woman standing across from you in the white dress says "I do"..........

 

[Silver Wings]

.......somehow.......I can imagine even he shuddered just a tad when he took a step back from the drawing board. Not the good kind of shudder, mind you. The one you get when you realize that at the end of the night, the girl you've been hitting on at the bar all night might really be a man. The chill you feel when you hear the proctologist snapping on the gloves behind you. That light headed feeling of doom that overcomes you when the woman standing across from you in the white dress says "I do"..........

The 'feelin' came about him as he realised he'd drawn the wings the wrong way round !

But with true German efficiency it was too late, as they'd already started the production run..........


Heh Spanky...... are you trying to push me into defending the Hansa ? No can do buddy.

 

[CatYaaak]

Can we get back to the point. The main planes I am using for comparison outside or reliability are the II, III, and IV.

This is why you're so friggin' funny Mr. Demo pilot.....that you honestly think you can compare the two without looking like a sap. You can't even beat the perf numbers of 604 Challengers, Falcon 2000EXs, etc, OR the DOC's for any of those. Just how do you justify going so slow at more $$s per hour?

And, unlike your oompa-loompa friendly Legacy, they're airplanes normal people can actually stand up in. Here's a news flash!......people actually CARE about that, and even EXPECT it for $20+ million. You'd do better to compare the Legacy to other, smaller cross-sectioned airframes because all you have there is a low/slow flying pencil that carries a lot of gas.

In fact, everything you write regarding performance comparisons or reliablilty of either the Legacy or other aircraft are either your "feelings" or as you "imagine" them...you offer absolutely NOTHING in terms of facts.

"Whistling Shltcan of Death".....god, that's funny!

 

[Silver Wings]

"Whistling Shltcan of Death".....god, that's funny!

rest of is a point of view but that above is b...s prime order.

ERJ's/Legacy have just about 6 million hours to date.....and zero injuries/deaths associated with the aircraft......... by the way 6 million hours is a lot.......you won't of seen those sort of numbers with a Falcon/Guléfstream/Challenger fleet.....and let's face it.....they've all had 'incidents' for one reason or another.

Point is....critque the Legacy on a field of rationality......... you've been doin OK so far....... but this below the belt.

 

[banned username 2]

rest of is a point of view but that above is b...s prime order.

ERJ's/Legacy have just about 6 million hours to date.....and zero injuries/deaths associated with the aircraft......... by the way 6 million hours is a lot.......you won't of seen those sort of numbers with a Falcon/Guléfstream/Challenger fleet.....and let's face it.....they've all had 'incidents' for one reason or another.

Point is....critque the Legacy on a field of rationality......... you've been doin OK so far....... but this below the belt.

Let's remember the "Whistling Shítcan of Death" analogy came from someone who flew over 2,000 of those 6 million hours, I'd say he is a pretty dämn reliable source on the "qualities" of this tube...

 

[Silver Wings]

Let's remember the "Whistling Shítcan of Death" analogy came from someone who flew over 2,000 of those 6 million hours, I'd say he is a pretty dämn reliable source on the "qualities" of this tube...

So...let me get this right....... numbers are good for calculating Falcon/Gulfstream things............ but when the numbers go the other way, then we stop using numbers and rely on 'opinion'........

I'm glad we sort of agree.

It all boils down to opinion in the end......... we all have a different take......

Some will take a Gulfstream / Falcon and (and incrasing) some will take a Legacy........
The 'numbers' are just not going to the final part of the issue.

 

[westwind driver]

"Personally, disregarding book numbers, facts and figures, I like the legacy." Yeah, let's disregard all the facts, numbers and figures, they don't really mean anything. This is truly a pathetic argument.

As for your resale example, again, simply retarded.




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What? I simply can't just like an aircraft just as it is? I like it. I could care less if it only went 1000 miles, to me, its still a nice plane.

 

[semperfido]

once you go G you never go back