Legacy Bashfest - Bring it on!

[fokkerjet]

To be fair, that crew had a tail strike in the ERJ-145. I don't know of any aircraft that wouldn't snap a few stringers or buckle the tail after smacking their tail on the runway with some severe G loads.

.

Anybody remember the GV "popsicle stick" incident at West Palm, back in 2002?

MIA02LA060On February 14, 2002, about 0649 eastern standard time, a Gulfstream Aerospace G-V, N777TY, operated by BB Five Inc., as a Title 14 CFR Part 91 positioning flight landed hard at West Palm Beach International Airport (PBI), West Palm Beach, Florida. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and an IFR flight plan was filed. The airplane was substantially damaged. The airline transport rated-pilot and co-pilot reported no injuries. The flight was originating at the time en route to Teterboro, New Jersey...............

..............According to the crew's statement, after taxi to the active runway the flight was cleared for takeoff at 0645. On takeoff roll all indications were "normal," and after lift-off the landing gear "failed to retract." The crew performed "override procedures," with "no change" in the indication. They then returned the landing gear to the "normal down position" and the checklist was completed for "landing gear failure to retract." They climbed to 2,000 feet and "addressed" the Blue CAS (Crew Alerting System) message "L WOW & R WOW PWR FAIL [Left and right weight-on-wheels power failure]," per the checklist. They reset and checked all CB's with "no change in message." They elected to land, to evaluate the situation on the ground, and performed an ILS approach to runway 27R at PBI.

At CVR time 20:03, while on final approach, the pilot said, "...we have three green, spoilers armed." According to the crew, on approach the power levers were retarded "to idle at approximately 15 feet above [the] ground...at that point the aircraft suddenly and abruptly descended to the runway with a very hard landing." According to the FDR (flight data recorder) the ground spoilers deployed at 57.7 feet on the radar altimeter, with a vertical acceleration of 4.25g on impact. At CVR time 21:13, the sound of the airplane impacting the runway was heard. The co-pilot said, "what the...was that...know what it was...spoilers...spoilers deployed...spoilers deployed."

According to the transcript of communication between N777TY and the local control at Palm Beach Tower the flight was cleared to land at 0647:12. At 0649:06, after landing, the PBI tower controller, asked the pilot of N777TY, "where you parking?" The pilot answered "we're going to need a tow truck out here we blew the right main [tire]." At 0651:41, the tower informed the crew that a tow truck and fire rescue was on the way. The pilot of N777TY said, "we're spilling fuel we blew some mains and aah we're spilling fuel."

OK, so which plane is better built; the one with the broken tail, and no injuries, or the one that pushed the gear through the wing, and no injuries?

 

[LJDRVR]

Legacy Driver, you are an insecure person, with not much in the way of common sense. Your loyalty to the airplane you fly is touching, but give me a break, dude! Here's the genesis:

Gulfstream=Grumman Iron Works. An aircraft that traces its design lineage to the Long Island airplane manufacturer who was known more than any other tin bender for making "bridge-like", sturdy airplanes.

Embraer=disposable jet.

For goodness sakes, I fly the WHSCOD for a living, and it's a PIG! I got my doors blown off by a 737 the other day when we were both taking off together on 15L/R at IAH. A Super-Hoover ate our breakfast and lunch! We were even in an XR. I'm going to have to wear a paper bag over my head in public now.

All kidding aside, I love the WHSCOD. It's a stable, easy jet to fly, and I like the automation. (The LNAV does suck.) I'm proud of the Embraer, but to attempt to compare it to a Gulfstream product would be as disengenous as some straight- wing Citation Driver thumping his chest and loadly proclaiming how his aircraft whips the pants off a Lear 31.

Apples and Oranges, dude.

 

[GEXDriver]

Anybody remember the GV "popsicle stick" incident at West Palm, back in 2002?

OK, so which plane is better built; the one with the broken tail, and no injuries, or the one that pushed the gear through the wing, and no injuries?

Easy question - easy answer! I remember the famed "popsicle stick" incident. The gear didn't punch through the wing, the right gear was torn loose from it's mounting point. If the Embraer hit the runway as hard as the Gulffstream did, it would have driven the gear through the wing though. But it didn't hit that hard, it just hit hard enough to break the flimsy tail off.

And the winner is - the airplane that maintained it's fuselage integrity - the Gulfstream!

 

[fokkerjet]

This is from the NTSB report:

According to the FAA inspector's statement, he arrived at the crash site on February 14, 2002, at 1000. The airplane was still on the runway, and it was lightly raining. The inspector examined the wreckage and said he could see that the "right main gear had been pushed through the wing spilling fuel." He did not notice anything "...unusual about the aircraft at this time." He said that he learned the next day, "that a mechanic had removed from both main gear weight-on-wheels switches pieces of a tongue depressor used to indicate that the aircraft had weight-on-wheels while on jacks." In addition, the FAA inspector stated the flightcrew members "...were violated for missing these pieces [tongue depressors] in the gear [during the pre flight inspection], but later expunged because it was determined that a reasonable person could have misses these," due to the fact they were hidden from view.

I'm not taking sides here, just posting the facts.......

 

[JetBlast2000]

Guys,
I just got a job flying a Legacy. I’m heading to school for the type on Jan 3rd. After reading this thread I’ve come to the conclusion (thus far) that the a/p is good, but not perfect. Just like most a/p. I still can’t wait to get going!

Question: I’ve not been able to get the books ahead of time to start studying. So do any of you out there have any good web based resources I could take a look at?

Thanks for the help.

JB2k

 

[GEXDriver]

This is from the NTSB report:

According to the FAA inspector's statement, he arrived at the crash site on February 14, 2002, at 1000. The airplane was still on the runway, and it was lightly raining. The inspector examined the wreckage and said he could see that the "right main gear had been pushed through the wing spilling fuel." He did not notice anything "...unusual about the aircraft at this time." He said that he learned the next day, "that a mechanic had removed from both main gear weight-on-wheels switches pieces of a tongue depressor used to indicate that the aircraft had weight-on-wheels while on jacks." In addition, the FAA inspector stated the flightcrew members "...were violated for missing these pieces [tongue depressors] in the gear [during the pre flight inspection], but later expunged because it was determined that a reasonable person could have misses these," due to the fact they were hidden from view.

I'm not taking sides here, just posting the facts.......

I understand. I have some pictures of this incident, graciously provided by the local Bombardier rep, which seem to show nothing sticking through the top of the right wing. Maybe the gear ruptured the fuel tank whe it ripped out? I'm on the road now, might be I can figure out how to post the pictures when I get home or maybe someone else has them who can post them now?

 

[NJAFracPilot]

Whistling Sh!tcan of Death

Guys,
I just got a job flying a Legacy. I'm heading to school for the type on Jan 3rd. After reading this thread I've come to the conclusion (thus far) that the a/p is good, but not perfect. Just like most a/p. I still can't wait to get going!

Question: I've not been able to get the books ahead of time to start studying. So do any of you out there have any good web based resources I could take a look at?

Thanks for the help.

JB2k

Maybe you should check over on the Regional Board

 

[NJAFracPilot]

Whistling Sh!tcan of Death

I've come to the conclusion (thus far) that the a/p is good, but not perfect. Just like most a/p. JB2k

And you're basing this on your experience in any of the types being compared or on the rantings of a Legacy salesman and demo pilot? Oh, that's right, you've never flown a jet before. So you believe Silverwings and LegacyDriver over the dozens of experienced corporate pilots, with types, that have told you the Legacy is a POS. I bet they're paying you top dollar, too.

 

[LegacyDriver]

And you're basing this on your experience in any of the types being compared or on the rantings of a Legacy salesman and demo pilot? Oh, that's right, you've never flown a jet before. So you believe Silverwings and LegacyDriver over the dozens of experienced corporate pilots, with types, that have told you the Legacy is a POS. I bet they're paying you top dollar, too.

The dozens of experienced corporate pilots who have yet to even *see* a Legacy much less fly in one. The dozens of ECPs who have quoted outdated articles and performance numbers? The dozens of ECPs who talk about a Legacy but cite RJ characteristics as if the airplanes are identical in the way they operate? Give me a break.

The Autopilot on the Legacy is just fine. It does what it should. No autothrottle, but shees, what do you think they pay you for? It is better than any Citation I have flown (and I have flown almost all of them short of the X). At least the controls are mounted in the right place (on the glareshield) and I don't have to set my side to mimic the Captain's if I want to see what the heck he's doing as the Citaitons from Bravo through Excel make you do.

I think the Rio Sul accident would have folded a Gulfstream in half.

Why Embraer does not update its numbers is beyond me but the Legacy II beats everything EMB has put out to date in printed form. They are conservative and that is to their detriment. Hell if the Legacy was a $30 M airplane we wouldn't be calling it a POS. It would be a "prestige" product or whatever nonsense you guys spout to justify the Peachjet's overpriced tag.

As for wing waggle, the 140 NEVER did that. The 145 did but I do not notice the clearing turn intercepts in the Legacy. I do not know that it was changed in any way but I have definitely not experienced it in this airplane. Just another example of how the Legacy is not just a dressed up RJ.

And if you are going to call it a Whistling...then at least wait until it kills someone before adding the Death part.

 

[TAG2]

The dozens of ECPs who have quoted outdated articles and performance numbers?

C'mon now. You are really embarassing yourself. There are some very experienced pilots on this board, some who were involved in the flight tests that produced the "outdated articles and performance numbers".

Hell if the Legacy was a $30 M airplane we wouldn't be calling it a POS.

You are correct there. We would have never even heard of a Legacy.

 

[LegacyDriver]

C'mon now. You are really embarassing yourself. There are some very experienced pilots on this board, some who were involved in the flight tests that produced the "outdated articles and performance numbers".

There is nobody on here involved in the testing of the Legacy... In any case that would be irrelevant since the Dash TWO version of the Legacy has a number of refinements that improved its performance significantly over the Dash One.

Also the peformance numbers are based on 270/.63M and I do not fly that profile if I am going for range. I climb at max rate through FL250. This amounts to major fuel savings over the book values (based on existing RJ climb profiles).

 

[fokkerjet]

Here's a comparison to help stir the pot a little:

TEB to OAK, SFO as an alternate. 325 lb payload (1 passenger plus luggage and crew luggage), optium routing and altitudes per JetPlan. Max fuel, except GV, I used 5000 lb landing fuel.

EMB - 5+37, 13429 burn and FL350, step 390 3+00 hrs into flight. M.78 cruise (max allowed in JetPlan), and 4387 lbs remaining at alternate. Max passenger load for this flight could be up to 10.
F2TH - 6+00, 9216 burn and FL430, step 470 3+15 hrs into flight. M75 cruise (in order to land with 2000 lbs), and 2265 lbs remaining at alternate. Max passenger load for this mission could be up to 4.
GV - 5+24, 14,480 burn and FL430, step to 470 1+00 hrs into flight. M83 cruise (standard cruise for us), and 5000 lbs remaining at alternate. The max passenger load for this flight could be up to 16 (really 19).

Looks like the Falcon could be in trouble here

 

[JetBlast2000]

And you're basing this on your experience in any of the types being compared or on the rantings of a Legacy salesman and demo pilot? Oh, that's right, you've never flown a jet before. So you believe Silverwings and LegacyDriver over the dozens of experienced corporate pilots, with types, that have told you the Legacy is a POS. I bet they're paying you top dollar, too.

I’m not bashing anything. I can’t wait to fly the Legacy. No a/p will ever please every pilot. Some characteristics are better than others. Jet = better than TP! At this point I’m willing to give all you fools a little leeway. No matter what info is posted here, you bet your a$$ I’m verifying it. I’ll obviously know a bit more when I’m done with class and have a few hours under my belt. As far as all this:

EMB - 5+37, 13429 burn and FL350, step 390 3+00 hrs into flight. M.78 cruise (max allowed in JetPlan), and 4387 lbs remaining at alternate.
F2TH - 6+00, 9216 burn and FL430, step 470 3+15 hrs into flight. M75 cruise (in order to land with 2000 lbs), and 2265 lbs remaining at alternate.
GV - 5+24, 14,480 burn and FL430, step to 470 1+00 hrs into flight. M83 cruise (standard cruise for us), and 5000 lbs remaining at alternate.

Sure it’s a fun debate, but I couldn’t give a rat’s a$$ at this point. I’m just glad to have a job.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Here's a comparison to help stir the pot a little:

TEB to OAK, SFO as an alternate. 325 lb payload (1 passenger plus luggage and crew luggage), optium routing and altitudes per JetPlan. Max fuel, except GV, I used 5000 lb landing fuel.

EMB - 5+37, 13429 burn and FL350, step 390 3+00 hrs into flight. M.78 cruise (max allowed in JetPlan), and 4387 lbs remaining at alternate. Max passenger load for this flight could be up to 10.
F2TH - 6+00, 9216 burn and FL430, step 470 3+15 hrs into flight. M75 cruise (in order to land with 2000 lbs), and 2265 lbs remaining at alternate. Max passenger load for this mission could be up to 4.
GV - 5+24, 14,480 burn and FL430, step to 470 1+00 hrs into flight. M83 cruise (standard cruise for us), and 5000 lbs remaining at alternate. The max passenger load for this flight could be up to 16 (really 19).

Looks like the Falcon could be in trouble here

Two things: Legacy goes direct to 390 (I do it all the time) and will got direct to 410 when we get the go ahead.

Also, apparently GV goes direct to 510. You need to adjust your numbers some.

I would be curious to see the GIV numbers...

 

[semperfido]

Also, apparently GV goes direct to 510. ...

Wrong, maybe with approx 9k of fuel left (off top of head)

 

[banned username 2]

Here's a comparison to help stir the pot a little:

TEB to OAK, SFO as an alternate. 325 lb payload (1 passenger plus luggage and crew luggage), optium routing and altitudes per JetPlan. Max fuel, except GV, I used 5000 lb landing fuel.

EMB - 5+37, 13429 burn and FL350, step 390 3+00 hrs into flight. M.78 cruise (max allowed in JetPlan), and 4387 lbs remaining at alternate. Max passenger load for this flight could be up to 10.
F2TH - 6+00, 9216 burn and FL430, step 470 3+15 hrs into flight. M75 cruise (in order to land with 2000 lbs), and 2265 lbs remaining at alternate. Max passenger load for this mission could be up to 4.
GV - 5+24, 14,480 burn and FL430, step to 470 1+00 hrs into flight. M83 cruise (standard cruise for us), and 5000 lbs remaining at alternate. The max passenger load for this flight could be up to 16 (really 19).

Looks like the Falcon could be in trouble here

I don't see any trouble... KTEB - KOAK, KSFO alternate...

Falcon 50EX - 5+29, 11,732 burn and FL390, step 430 0+45 hrs into flight. M82 cruise and 3,150 lbs remaining at alternate. Max passenger load for this mission could be up to 9. (Could land with 3,800 lbs if departed full fuel)
Runway Required (15°C, no wind): 4,420 ft, 2nd Segment Climb OEI: 6.3%

Falcon 900EX - 5+27, 12,280 burn and FL390, step 430 3+00 hrs into flight. M82 cruise and 3,000 lbs remaining at alternate. Max passenger load for this mission could be up to 12 (well really 19). (Could land with 8,720 lbs if departed full fuel)
Runway Required (15°C, no wind): 3,990 ft, 2nd Segment Climb OEI: 9.3%

 

[semperfido]

GV - 5+24, 14,480 burn and FL430, step to 470 1+00 hrs into flight. M83 cruise

most people i know would fly this @ m85 in a g5 plus most g5s probably don't carry 16 pax

 

[fokkerjet]

Both the Falcon and Gulfstream are in our fleet, so I used our BOW's, SOP and configurations......I have no idea what's correct or not with the Legacy; the BOW came from Embraer's website, and performance was from Jeppesen.

Falcon 2000 - Runway Required (15c, no wind): 5,830 ft, 2nd Segment Climb OEI: 3.9%.

Since you say the data is wrong, why don't you contribute with the Legacy's correct numbers...........

In this example, the Falcon is at max gross with 4 passengers, the WSofD is at about 96% with 10, and the Gulfstream is somewhere around 80% with 16......GVFlyer could provide much better data, but I believe the G350 would come in at around 98%, but that's with 16 passengers still.

 

[GVFlyer]

most people i know would fly this @ m85 in a g5 plus most g5s probably don't carry 16 pax

Although normal cuise fo the G550 is M 0.85, the jet burns 7.7 percent less fuel at M 0.83. With the current high fuel prices some operators have elected to cruise at M 0.83 to save fuel. Gulfstream provides cruise charts for M 0.80, M 0.83, M 0.85 and M 0.87, with 8 passenger ranges of 6,750 nm, 6,500 nm, 6,000 nm, and 5,000 nm respectively. You're right, statistics show that the average passenger load for the GV/G550 is six, but I think Fokkerjet was showing a maximum capability for the fuel burn as oppossed to a normalized pasenger load..

GV

 

[semperfido]

Although normal cuise fo the G550 is M 0.85, the jet burns 7.7 percent less fuel at M 0.83. With the current high fuel prices some operators have elected to cruise at M 0.83 to save fuel. Gulfstream provides cruise charts for M 0.80, M 0.83, M 0.85 and M 0.87, with 8 passenger ranges of 6,750 nm, 6,500 nm, 6,000 nm, and 5,000 nm respectively. You're right, statistics show that the average passenger load for the GV/G550 is six, but I think Fokkerjet was showing a maximum capability for the fuel burn as oppossed to a normalized pasenger load..

GV

i agree with that