Legacy Bashfest - Bring it on!

[Silver Wings]

All that good info aside, who wants to ride in a "Whistling Shítcan of Death" anyhow???

That is the best analogy I have heard, I am still laughing at that one!

"Whistling Shítcan of Death"

Your killin' me!

I seem to recall a certain government Falcon becoming exactly that ! Bodies and parts thereof all over the cabin , aircraft porpoising about the heavens....... Hmmm.......
Back to the facts....ain't nobody ever been hurt by a legacy /ERJ except a few of youse guys ego's......

 

[FracCapt]

I seem to recall a certain government Falcon becoming exactly that ! Bodies and parts thereof all over the cabin , aircraft porpoising about the heavens....... Hmmm.......

...and I seem to recall a Hawker surviving a double air-to-air missile attack from a Mig...so does that mean the Hawker is superior to the Embraer?

IIRC, the incident you are referencing was due to pilot error...fighting the autopilot instead of turning it off. Are Embraer pilots immune to things like that?

 

[G100driver]

I seem to recall a certain government Falcon becoming exactly that ! Bodies and parts thereof all over the cabin , aircraft porpoising about the heavens....... Hmmm.......
Back to the facts....ain't nobody ever been hurt by a legacy /ERJ except a few of youse guys ego's......

You are a moron. That incident was caused by another moron pilot who tried to put opposite control pressure against the auto-pilot. When this did not work he let go of the yoke while all time the airplane was triming against his opposite control pressure. This is when the airplane started to porpoise. It was exacerbated by the pilot who tried to correct the porpoise while the auto-pilot was still engaged. Your gripe should be with Collins .... not Dassault.

BTW that pilot is in jail for manslaughter in native country as he was sited as the sole reason for this accident.

If you are going to attempt to bash ANY airplane (which is silly to begin with) then perhaps you should at least have a simple knowledge of accident that you site as a design flaw.

 

[Silver Wings]

You are a moron. That incident was caused by another moron pilot who tried to put opposite control pressure against the auto-pilot. When this did not work he let go of the yoke while all time the airplane was triming against his opposite control pressure. This is when the airplane started to porpoise. It was exacerbated by the pilot who tried to correct the porpoise while the auto-pilot was still engaged. Your gripe should be with Collins .... not Dassault.

BTW that pilot is in jail for manslaughter in native country as he was sited as the sole reason for this accident.

If you are going to attempt to bash ANY airplane (which is silly to begin with) then perhaps you should at least have a simple knowledge of accident that you site as a design flaw.

Dear oh Dear...... I'm not bashing any aircraft.
Falcon guy is calling the names.
I'm merely pointing out that if he's gonna use the name he's bandying about for the Legacy then he is way outta line......
You are right about the Falcon incident....not a Falcon issue at all. never implied it was....just that it did happen on a Falcon.......

 

[Silver Wings]

...and I seem to recall a Hawker surviving a double air-to-air missile attack from a Mig...so does that mean the Hawker is superior to the Embraer?

IIRC, the incident you are referencing was due to pilot error...fighting the autopilot instead of turning it off. Are Embraer pilots immune to things like that?

Your memory is playing tricks

The missile was shoulder launched surface to air (SAM) type, that took off one of the Hawker engines. the aircraft landed OK, no injuries to crew or pax, and was repaired. For all I know it is still operating somewhere even now.
No, the Hawker was good sturdy cost effective aircraft...for it's time. The Legacy does that for the time now.

 

[G100driver]

Dear oh Dear...... I'm not bashing any aircraft.
Falcon guy is calling the names.
I'm merely pointing out that if he's gonna use the name he's bandying about for the Legacy then he is way outta line......
You are right about the Falcon incident....not a Falcon issue at all. never implied it was....just that it did happen on a Falcon.......

You were implying that the airplane was at fault in your comparision of the Whistling Shítcan of Death to the Falcon WRT to safety. Nice try attempting to cover your inept sales faupaux.

 

[FracCapt]

Your memory is playing tricks

The missile was shoulder launched surface to air (SAM) type, that took off one of the Hawker engines.

You sure about that?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/0301-sam-threat01.htm

About 3/4 of the way down the page...

Whoops....guess you may be mistaken about certain things about the Legacy, as well....

 

[Silver Wings]

You were implying that the airplane was at fault in your comparision of the Whistling Shítcan of Death to the Falcon WRT to safety. Nice try attempting to cover your inept sales faupaux.

Incorrect.
There was no assertion of fault...merely observation of fact.

However it occured there has been a case where live bodies have been turned into dead bodies and assorted bits inside a Falcon cabin in flight......
Hence the Whistling **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**can of Death allusion is perhaps more apt in the case of the Falcon than to another aircraft that has never had any such occurance (and after about 6 million hours is a fair bet that it isn't about to soon).

No sales faupaux (what is one of those anyway ? I think you mean faux-pas) as I'm not selling anything.....

Now to be absolutely clear............ it was a pilot screwing up (you know the feleing now) and not the Falcon........

 

[Silver Wings]

You sure about that?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/0301-sam-threat01.htm

About 3/4 of the way down the page...

Whoops....guess you may be mistaken about certain things about the Legacy, as well....

Funny thing memory eh !
Looked in a Hawker book and found the picture and it was air to air's.
Shows either Hawker is mighty strong or Russian missiles are mighty useless......
Thanks for putting me back on the right track.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again..." Eight pages......?!
I wonder.......if we were able to remove the anonymity of the internet and sit us all down in a room, face to face, would we still squabble like a bunch of little old ladies? .........Yeah, I think, probably so......... Welp......don't stay up too late!

 

[Stearmandriver]

8 Frickin' pages, and the only pertinent point was brought up on page one, and all but ignored: who CARES?? I've got a couple thousand hours in the WHISCOD, and I guess it's ok. It hasn't killed me yet, and that I like very much. Otherwise... whatever. It's a jet. Obviously it can't be compared to a Gulfstream, but... Legacy Driver, I just don't understand the fanatical devotion. It's just a JOB, dude! I mean, if you hit the lottery tomorrow, would you continue to fly this thing? We have a flight attendant that tells people it was built in a hollow tree by the Keebler elves - and the pax find that so funny because it's halfway believable (not to mention halfway true!). Really, I just don't get the point of the debate. If we were engineers, I guess I could see it. But from a pilot standpoint... a long tube, big fans, and video games. The end.

Now, if y'all want to debate the relative merits of some aircraft with soul, that I could understand. Stearman vs. Waco? Super Cub vs. Husky? Beaver vs.... ah, well, that one's not fair, there's just no comparisons...

Lighten UP! Fly your tube, then go HOME, and enjoy real life!

 

[CatYaaak]

Now, if y'all want to debate the relative merits of some aircraft with soul, that I could understand. Stearman vs. Waco? Super Cub vs. Husky? Beaver vs.... ah, well, that one's not fair, there's just no comparisons...

Wacos rule!

 

[typhoonpilot]

Beaver

He said, Beaver .


TP

 

[NotFurloughed]

Reliability

Don't know much about the Legacy except what my regional friends tell me, but...

Our GIV has 8000 hours and 5100 landings on it...flies 700+ hours per year...that's abuse...not quite what it was built to do, but we haven't had to cancel a trip for mx in two years...

that says something about Gulfstream reliability and durability...

 

[banned username 2]

I seem to recall a certain government Falcon becoming exactly that ! Bodies and parts thereof all over the cabin , aircraft porpoising about the heavens....... Hmmm.......
Back to the facts....ain't nobody ever been hurt by a legacy /ERJ except a few of youse guys ego's......

EVERY Falcon 900 ever built is still flying... Including this one which incurred some VERY high G loads and rapid onset and occillations which was enough to kill all the passengers that weren't tied down (pilot error)...

Even the Falcon in this accident was repaired and is still flying (again a pilot error accident, landed with a 30 knot tailwind on a snow covered runway)

'It was a miracle'
[size=-1]Jet skids off runway into Hyannis shopping center; no one hurt[/size]

[size=-1]By LORI A. NOLIN
and K.C. MYERS[/size]
[size=-1]STAFF WRITERS[/size]
HYANNIS - A turbojet aircraft carrying four people skidded off a Barnstable Municipal Airport runway while attempting to land last night, crashed through a fence, crossed Route 28 and stopped in the middle of TJ Maxx Plaza.
No one on the plane or on the ground was injured.

[size=-1]Similar accident in 1989: On Jan. 20, 1989, a Dassault-Breguet Falcon 900 carrying four persons skidded off a snow- and slush-covered runway in South Bend, Ind. No one aboard was injured.

An investigation showed the plane's reverse-thrust mechanism, which is key to slowing the aircraft after landing, had failed to engage and the plane was propelled down the runway by the forward thrusting engine.

An investigation by the National Transportation Safety Board showed the failure was due to a manufacturing or design problem. The agency issued two mandatory service bulletins in 1989 calling for repair of the reverse-thrust mechanism.

[/size]The plane, bound from LaGuardia Airport in New York, was attempting to land shortly after 6 p.m. It carried a chain-link fence across Route 28. Police said the aircraft did not hit any cars on the busy highway, although the uprooted fencing did hit an undetermined number of cars.

The plane was attempting to land in the midst of a storm that had dumped snow and sleet on Cape Cod all day. The wind at the time of the accident was from the north-northeast with gusts of more than 30 mph.

"It was just too slippery," said Jay Logan, a flight mechanic and engineer who was on board the plane. "We couldn't stop. It slid off the runway and went through the fence. It didn't hit anybody; we were very fortunate. It was touchdown and there was no braking; it was poor."

Richard Bunker of the Massachusetts Aeronautics Commission said weather may have been a factor, but said he could provide no specifics until the National Transportation Safety Board starts an investigation today.

Bunker said he could not provide information on the condition of the runway at the time of the crash.

The plane will probably be towed today, Bunker said. An environmental cleanup company is working to contain several hundred gallons of jet fuel spilled in the parking lot, Bunker said.

The airport remained closed last night after the accident.

Shivering, Logan sipped black coffee inside Osco Drug while police spoke with the pilot outside.

Logan, from Chicago, said the plane had just arrived from LaGuardia, where he, two other crew members and a passenger had been on business. He declined to give details of the business.

"Your weather is worse than it was there (in New York)," he said. "It was clean when we left." He said the crew was returning its passenger to Hyannis where the man lives with his family. "Our main concern was our passenger, and he's fine," said Logan.

[size=-1]A Falcon jet rests in the TJ Maxx Plaza parking lot last night in Hyannis after sliding through a fence surrounding Barnstable Municipal Airport. The accident caused the plane's wings to partially collapse. [/size]
[font=arial, helvetica](Staff photo by Vincent DeWitt) [/font]

Logan said he was on the telephone arranging ground transportation for the passenger when the incident happened. From inside, he said, he did not hear the noises witnesses described as "heinous" from the ground.

The plane, a Dassault Mystere Falcon 900B, is owned by 200 PS Aircraft Holdings Inc., according to Federal Aviation Administration records. It has three turbojet engines and can carry 12 people. They are generally privately owned corporate planes.

The area along Route 28, bustling with numerous shops and restaurants, is known to be very busy even on its slowest days. Last night, the parking lot was filled with cars, shoppers and the nearly 18-ton plane in the middle.

Diners ran from restaurants and employees emerged from stores, surrounding the plane, while traffic flowed through the parking lot, on Barnstable Road and on Route 28.

"This is just chaos," one Barnstable police officer said,

Mike Simpson, 24, on leave from the Navy and visiting from Connecticut, said the flying fence just missed his car. "I slammed on my brakes and the last piece of fencing went along the front of my car - it's a rental car," he said. "I immediately pulled over, popped my trunk and grabbed my medic bag. That's when I saw the fuel leaking."

Like many at the scene, Simpson said he was just waiting for an explosion as the smell of jet fuel grew stronger.


"Thank God there were no sparks or anything," he said.

Simpson immediately began ushering people away from the scene and helped evacuate nearby Mitchell's Steakhouse in the middle of a Saint Patrick's Day party.

Helen Flint, Mitchell's hostess, said the restaurant was almost full of patrons enjoying corned beef and cabbage, lamb Wellington and shepherd's pie. Fearing an explosion, firefighters asked everyone to leave because of jet fuel flowing into a drain that leads to the restaurant.

"It's a killer," she said. "This was a really big night for us. It's one of our biggest nights of the year."

At Strawberries Music, employees and a customer watched as the store windows bowed in from the force of the wind as the plane came to a stop.

Kerri Leboeuf, 20, a store employee, said she is so used to planes flying overhead she usually tunes them out.

The sounds last night, she said, were louder and had an eerie kind of echo. "I thought the plane landed on us, so I kept looking up, " she said.

William and Sylvia King of Bridgewater said they were driving toward the Hyannis rotary when the sound of a plane landing became extremely loud.

"The plane was coming up along side of us, and then my wife screamed, 'It's coming right at us,'" said William King, 75.

King said he swerved into the Staples parking lot near Osco Drug, but not before a chain-link fence the plane was dragging struck the side of the couple's Camry.

The metal ripped the side of the car, taking off a side mirror. Sylvia King said the fence also struck the top of the car in front of them.

The police reported no injuries from the accident itself.

William King was later taken to Cape Cod Hospital, complaining of stress and high blood pressure.

"The plane crossed right in front us," King said. "Traffic was so bad. Do you know how close we came to death?"

Route 28 and several connecting roads were closed because of the fuel spill.

Bunker said it is possible the plane also damaged radio beacons on the airport property, but added that possibility was still being investigated.

 

[bigD]

You guys are f'ing killing me! Whistling Sh!tcan of Death!

Friggin' hilarious!

 

[fokkerjet]

Is this WSofD worth 15 pages ?

 

[Nova]

Uh, the crew on one of the accidents stated that they weren't even aware the tail broke, stated that no unusal landing forces were noted... EMB later added strengthening and stiffing to the aft fuselage...

To be fair, that crew had a tail strike in the ERJ-145. I don't know of any aircraft that wouldn't snap a few stringers or buckle the tail after smacking their tail on the runway with some severe G loads.

ERJ's/Legacy have just about 6 million hours to date.....and zero injuries/deaths associated with the aircraft.........

There were injuries in the COEX Beaumont crash.

 

[AA717driver]

I've never flown a Falcon but I believe they are built like brick $hithouses(not $hitcans...)

We did have a cancellation today. The IV was all cranked up and trying to beat me out of Signature EWR so he could slow down to .80 and pi$$ off my owner. He drops the door and starts waving his cellphone to us. We call him up and he has a nosewheel controller failure.

His pax come to our airplane. Gulfstream puts a part and a mech on the G100 and he should be home by now and the IV will be ready to go tomorrow morning.

That will teach the SOB to try to beat me outta the ramp! TC

 

[Webslinger]

I must put my .02 cents on this subject matter and support Falcon Capt and GVflyr. Having flown both the EMB-135/Legacy and older G-II aircraft, you cannot compare the two as far as Power, performance or reliability and quality in aircraft construction and design. The Gulfstream is superior hands down! You cannot compare the two! Its Apples and Oranges. Yes the Legacy is slightly more comfortable and is just as modern and any gulfstream except for the lack of auto-throttles. But you just cannot compare climbing at 300kts (above 10,000) to .80 all the way up to 41,000ft in any of todays gulfstreams....christ they used to be built by Grumman dude!!! You know, the company that makes F-14's!?!?!?. So LegacyDriver, we are happy that you are rock H$rd for you bird, but maybe you should stay on the porch just a little longer till you grow up.