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Legacy Bashfest - Bring it on!

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Silver Wings said:
So...let me get this right....... numbers are good for calculating Falcon/Gulfstream things............ but when the numbers go the other way, then we stop using numbers and rely on 'opinion'........

I'm glad we sort of agree.

It all boils down to opinion in the end......... we all have a different take......

Some will take a Gulfstream / Falcon and (and incrasing) some will take a Legacy........
The 'numbers' are just not going to the final part of the issue.
Number are good, problem is no one has posted any numbers for the "Whistling Shítcan of Death" that dispell the fact that the Gulfstreams run circles around it (performance wise) all day long... The only thing the Lagacy has going for it is it's cheap... But then again, so is a Yugo...
 
Silver Wings said:
Heh Spanky...... are you trying to push me into defending the Hansa ? No can do buddy.
Nope Silver Wang........just intertaining my own childish perversions?! My knowledge of the Legacy doesn't extend beyond my observation of the miles of runway that I've watched the ERJ consume at my local airport. I take it you like the little fellas? Why is it that they seem to eat so much runway? Are they being really conservative with the power or do those engines produce the thrust equivalent of a standard household oscillating fan?
 
After more than 4000 hours in the "Whistling $hitcan of Death" (600 or so in the Legacy), I can say it is a good platform for it's designed mission. It is made as a cheaper replacement for older (worn out) G2's. I've never seen it compared to the G4s or G5s. It competes head to head with HS-125s and C-Xs. It is an affordable way for companies to step up from a medium cabin to a smaller large cabin jet. It will never compare to a G4 or 5 nor will it compare to a Global. But, just because it is in a different (lessor) category doesn't make it crappy. Anyways..... Flame retardant suit on.....
 
Bad-Andy said:
After more than 4000 hours in the "Whistling $hitcan of Death" (600 or so in the Legacy), I can say it is a good platform for it's designed mission. It is made as a cheaper replacement for older (worn out) G2's. I've never seen it compared to the G4s or G5s. It competes head to head with HS-125s and C-Xs. It is an affordable way for companies to step up from a medium cabin to a smaller large cabin jet. It will never compare to a G4 or 5 nor will it compare to a Global. But, just because it is in a different (lessor) category doesn't make it crappy. Anyways..... Flame retardant suit on.....
Exactly the point. (You can add G200's along with the H125 and C-X and I suppose the CL300...but that seems like quite a worthwhile bird).

If you really need the range take the G4/5 G-X, but if you don't then the legacy should be on the list to look at....that's been the whole point all along.
 
If you really need the range take the G4/5 G-X, but if you don't then the legacy should be on the list to look at....
That's not what I'm getting at. There is a heck of a lot more than just the range or price that goes into the decision. The cabin height is a huge deal for some purchasers. For others, the world wide support network that Gulfstream has in place is more important than cost. Getting stuck in Africa waiting for a part to come in from Embraer can cost a lot of time and money (I know because it happenned to me more than once...), negating the savings on the initial purchase price. Any time we got stuck, guess what came to the rescue... A beautiful G5.

Anyways... My point was why the heck are we trying to compare the two??? They are different aircraft with different missions. The G4/G5 kills the Legacy on range, speed, altitude, comfort, and support around the world. But, what about all the companies that fly domestic, couple of thousand mile legs, that like the comfort, but can't afford a Gulfstream? That is where the Legacy comes in. It is a different niche. On those short (relatively speaking) legs, the Legacy is the same speed, same comfortable ride, and a lot cheaper.
 
Bad-Andy said:
Anyways... My point was why the heck are we trying to compare the two???
...cause' some Legacy pilot initiated this whole novel......
Bad-Andy said:
It is a different niche. On those short (relatively speaking) legs, the Legacy is the same speed, same comfortable ride, and a lot cheaper.
I think that's the point the "pro-everyotherjet" people were trying to make. :)
 
Uncle Sparky said:
Nope Silver Wang........just intertaining my own childish perversions?! My knowledge of the Legacy doesn't extend beyond my observation of the miles of runway that I've watched the ERJ consume at my local airport. I take it you like the little fellas? Why is it that they seem to eat so much runway? Are they being really conservative with the power or do those engines produce the thrust equivalent of a standard household oscillating fan?
I'm just a sucker for the underdog..... Heh there are so many bashin the Legacy i thought somebody should at least point out the other side of the story. Sure I like em.... have flown in them, and Gulftsreams (GIVSP, GV, Galaxy and F2000 and F20, H800XP, BE400A, CE750 etc etc) PAX only.....(actually the only way to form a realistic judgement). I'm engineer, so you get to see both sides.

There seem to be some Legacy jocks now defending the little 'un..... so I don't need to be into this anymore...and I got a life to lead.

So....back to your points.

Watch how much runway a g-string uses with 40+ pax and luggage on board........!!!!

Anyway, the Legacy is basically an ERJ135 with the highest thurst engines available for the ERJ-145 (The R-R AE3007 A1E.....)......OK so they ain't Tay's but they're still pushin and at ISA+22C about the highest flat rated about and with FADEC's.


On the basis there are never any Legacy numbers.....I thought I'd add this into the pot. Sure they aren't going to set hearts on fire...but it does the job.

SMO to TEB 24kt tail wind (Boeing 85%) (Climb and descent with wind. M0.78 FL410 Flight time 4:52 with fuel a shade under 10,000lbs, carrying 8 pax and baggage (about 2,000lb load), temps (ISA +9 at SMO 85%July temp).

TEB to SMO 68kt headwind (Boeing 85%) (Climb and descent with wind. M0.78 FL390 (OK wrong but only a calc) Flight time 5:54 with fuel a shade under 13,100lbs, carrying 8 pax and baggage (about 2,000lb load), temps (ISA +13 at TEB 85%July temp).

Only aircraft that I see competes on the value stakes is the CL300...and that is a might less of a cabin (65% less cabin volume) for a 4 to 5 hour run and a whole lot less baggage capacity (not even half the baggage in fact 240cu ft to 106 cu ft)....but there are gonna be different views on this for sure.

I haven't flown on a CL300. Have flown a CL604.... nice, quiet....wide.....SHORT. looking forward to trying a CL300 someday.
 
Bad-Andy said:
That's not what I'm getting at. There is a heck of a lot more than just the range or price that goes into the decision. The cabin height is a huge deal for some purchasers. For others, the world wide support network that Gulfstream has in place is more important than cost. Getting stuck in Africa waiting for a part to come in from Embraer can cost a lot of time and money (I know because it happenned to me more than once...), negating the savings on the initial purchase price. Any time we got stuck, guess what came to the rescue... A beautiful G5.

Anyways... My point was why the heck are we trying to compare the two??? They are different aircraft with different missions. The G4/G5 kills the Legacy on range, speed, altitude, comfort, and support around the world. But, what about all the companies that fly domestic, couple of thousand mile legs, that like the comfort, but can't afford a Gulfstream? That is where the Legacy comes in. It is a different niche. On those short (relatively speaking) legs, the Legacy is the same speed, same comfortable ride, and a lot cheaper.
I think we basically agree.
 
Your economic model is simplistic and absurd, not to mention naive; your assumptions are invalid. When Gulfstream sells an airplane it is not just the sales exec and the CEO who are involved, the company has fully staffed legal and financial departments to help with purchasing strategies. Issues of tax, depreciation, amortization and whether direct purchase or lease is most cost effective, must be determined.

LegacyDriver said:
----------

Ah, but resale value is not that important in this case. Using a G-IV as an example (with a V the Legacy looks even better I think)...

Your 35 million dollar Peachjet will resell for say, 75 percent of its value (if you buy a new one) to the dealer.

The most expensive Gulfstream I listed sold for 31.9 million new; the least expensive $24 million. All sold at between 87% and 90.6% of their new purchase price. None were sold by Gulfstream (the "dealer"). Gulfstream has no preowned GIV's available, nor any GIV derivatives. They were sold by brokers: Bloomer deVere, Wealth and Jet Brokers.

Even if my 21 million dollar EBJ is worth ZERO I am going to come out fairly even.

No, the loss of value will be your cost of ownership.

I am paying financing on a smaller principle (read lower interest!)

Which may or may not be an advantage depending upon whether or not you can charge it off.

and the money I saved (14 million) is earning money. (Let's just assume 7 percent a year for grins - I just brought in13.54 million over ten years for my money).

So: GIV total outlay 35.
Resale of 35 * .75 is 26.25 m

EMB outlay 21m - 21m depreciation is zero.
13 m compounded 7 percent over 10 years equals 27.54 million.

If legal and Gulfstream Financial Services determine that in your particular situation it is better advised to lease rather than take the accelerated depreciation, there is a purchase price, but no capital outlay, just a monthly payment.

Legacy wins by nearly 1.3 million not factoring interest expense and DOC. Point being is resale value doesn't necessarily matter that much because my plane is so much more affordable. My money and my plane are working for me at 35 million.
:)

Disregarding your other erroneous assumptions, once you adjust the DOC for the speed differential between the G450/G550 and the Legacy, the difference in direct operating cost is 9% not counting Gulfstream's retained value which would further reduce the differential.

GV
 
All that good info aside, who wants to ride in a "Whistling Shítcan of Death" anyhow???

That is the best analogy I have heard, I am still laughing at that one!

"Whistling Shítcan of Death"

Your killin' me!
 
Falcon Capt said:
All that good info aside, who wants to ride in a "Whistling Shítcan of Death" anyhow???

That is the best analogy I have heard, I am still laughing at that one!

"Whistling Shítcan of Death"

Your killin' me!
I seem to recall a certain government Falcon becoming exactly that ! Bodies and parts thereof all over the cabin , aircraft porpoising about the heavens....... Hmmm.......
Back to the facts....ain't nobody ever been hurt by a legacy /ERJ except a few of youse guys ego's......
 
Silver Wings said:
I seem to recall a certain government Falcon becoming exactly that ! Bodies and parts thereof all over the cabin , aircraft porpoising about the heavens....... Hmmm.......
...and I seem to recall a Hawker surviving a double air-to-air missile attack from a Mig...so does that mean the Hawker is superior to the Embraer?

IIRC, the incident you are referencing was due to pilot error...fighting the autopilot instead of turning it off. Are Embraer pilots immune to things like that?
 
Silver Wings said:
I seem to recall a certain government Falcon becoming exactly that ! Bodies and parts thereof all over the cabin , aircraft porpoising about the heavens....... Hmmm.......
Back to the facts....ain't nobody ever been hurt by a legacy /ERJ except a few of youse guys ego's......
You are a moron. That incident was caused by another moron pilot who tried to put opposite control pressure against the auto-pilot. When this did not work he let go of the yoke while all time the airplane was triming against his opposite control pressure. This is when the airplane started to porpoise. It was exacerbated by the pilot who tried to correct the porpoise while the auto-pilot was still engaged. Your gripe should be with Collins .... not Dassault.

BTW that pilot is in jail for manslaughter in native country as he was sited as the sole reason for this accident.

If you are going to attempt to bash ANY airplane (which is silly to begin with) then perhaps you should at least have a simple knowledge of accident that you site as a design flaw.
 
G100driver said:
You are a moron. That incident was caused by another moron pilot who tried to put opposite control pressure against the auto-pilot. When this did not work he let go of the yoke while all time the airplane was triming against his opposite control pressure. This is when the airplane started to porpoise. It was exacerbated by the pilot who tried to correct the porpoise while the auto-pilot was still engaged. Your gripe should be with Collins .... not Dassault.

BTW that pilot is in jail for manslaughter in native country as he was sited as the sole reason for this accident.

If you are going to attempt to bash ANY airplane (which is silly to begin with) then perhaps you should at least have a simple knowledge of accident that you site as a design flaw.

Dear oh Dear...... I'm not bashing any aircraft.
Falcon guy is calling the names.
I'm merely pointing out that if he's gonna use the name he's bandying about for the Legacy then he is way outta line......
You are right about the Falcon incident....not a Falcon issue at all. never implied it was....just that it did happen on a Falcon.......
 
FracCapt said:
...and I seem to recall a Hawker surviving a double air-to-air missile attack from a Mig...so does that mean the Hawker is superior to the Embraer?

IIRC, the incident you are referencing was due to pilot error...fighting the autopilot instead of turning it off. Are Embraer pilots immune to things like that?
Your memory is playing tricks

The missile was shoulder launched surface to air (SAM) type, that took off one of the Hawker engines. the aircraft landed OK, no injuries to crew or pax, and was repaired. For all I know it is still operating somewhere even now.
No, the Hawker was good sturdy cost effective aircraft...for it's time. The Legacy does that for the time now.
 
Silver Wings said:
Dear oh Dear...... I'm not bashing any aircraft.
Falcon guy is calling the names.
I'm merely pointing out that if he's gonna use the name he's bandying about for the Legacy then he is way outta line......
You are right about the Falcon incident....not a Falcon issue at all. never implied it was....just that it did happen on a Falcon.......
You were implying that the airplane was at fault in your comparision of the Whistling Shítcan of Death to the Falcon WRT to safety. Nice try attempting to cover your inept sales faupaux.
 
G100driver said:
You were implying that the airplane was at fault in your comparision of the Whistling Shítcan of Death to the Falcon WRT to safety. Nice try attempting to cover your inept sales faupaux.
Incorrect.
There was no assertion of fault...merely observation of fact.

However it occured there has been a case where live bodies have been turned into dead bodies and assorted bits inside a Falcon cabin in flight......
Hence the Whistling **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**can of Death allusion is perhaps more apt in the case of the Falcon than to another aircraft that has never had any such occurance (and after about 6 million hours is a fair bet that it isn't about to soon).

No sales faupaux (what is one of those anyway ? I think you mean faux-pas) as I'm not selling anything.....

Now to be absolutely clear............ it was a pilot screwing up (you know the feleing now) and not the Falcon........
 
FracCapt said:
You sure about that?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/0301-sam-threat01.htm

About 3/4 of the way down the page...

Whoops....guess you may be mistaken about certain things about the Legacy, as well.... :D
Funny thing memory eh !
Looked in a Hawker book and found the picture and it was air to air's.
Shows either Hawker is mighty strong or Russian missiles are mighty useless......
Thanks for putting me back on the right track.
 
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again..." Eight pages......?!
I wonder.......if we were able to remove the anonymity of the internet and sit us all down in a room, face to face, would we still squabble like a bunch of little old ladies? .........Yeah, I think, probably so......... Welp......don't stay up too late! :cool: :D
 
8 Frickin' pages, and the only pertinent point was brought up on page one, and all but ignored: who CARES?? I've got a couple thousand hours in the WHISCOD, and I guess it's ok. It hasn't killed me yet, and that I like very much. Otherwise... whatever. It's a jet. Obviously it can't be compared to a Gulfstream, but... Legacy Driver, I just don't understand the fanatical devotion. It's just a JOB, dude! I mean, if you hit the lottery tomorrow, would you continue to fly this thing? We have a flight attendant that tells people it was built in a hollow tree by the Keebler elves - and the pax find that so funny because it's halfway believable (not to mention halfway true!). Really, I just don't get the point of the debate. If we were engineers, I guess I could see it. But from a pilot standpoint... a long tube, big fans, and video games. The end.

Now, if y'all want to debate the relative merits of some aircraft with soul, that I could understand. Stearman vs. Waco? Super Cub vs. Husky? Beaver vs.... ah, well, that one's not fair, there's just no comparisons...

Lighten UP! Fly your tube, then go HOME, and enjoy real life!
 
Stearmandriver said:
Now, if y'all want to debate the relative merits of some aircraft with soul, that I could understand. Stearman vs. Waco? Super Cub vs. Husky? Beaver vs.... ah, well, that one's not fair, there's just no comparisons...
Wacos rule!
 
Reliability

Don't know much about the Legacy except what my regional friends tell me, but...

Our GIV has 8000 hours and 5100 landings on it...flies 700+ hours per year...that's abuse...not quite what it was built to do, but we haven't had to cancel a trip for mx in two years...

that says something about Gulfstream reliability and durability...
 
Silver Wings said:
I seem to recall a certain government Falcon becoming exactly that ! Bodies and parts thereof all over the cabin , aircraft porpoising about the heavens....... Hmmm.......
Back to the facts....ain't nobody ever been hurt by a legacy /ERJ except a few of youse guys ego's......
EVERY Falcon 900 ever built is still flying... Including this one which incurred some VERY high G loads and rapid onset and occillations which was enough to kill all the passengers that weren't tied down (pilot error)...

Even the Falcon in this accident was repaired and is still flying (again a pilot error accident, landed with a 30 knot tailwind on a snow covered runway)
'It was a miracle'
[size=-1]Jet skids off runway into Hyannis shopping center; no one hurt[/size]

[size=-1]By LORI A. NOLIN
and K.C. MYERS[/size]
[size=-1]STAFF WRITERS[/size]
HYANNIS - A turbojet aircraft carrying four people skidded off a Barnstable Municipal Airport runway while attempting to land last night, crashed through a fence, crossed Route 28 and stopped in the middle of TJ Maxx Plaza.
No one on the plane or on the ground was injured.

[size=-1]Similar accident in 1989: On Jan. 20, 1989, a Dassault-Breguet Falcon 900 carrying four persons skidded off a snow- and slush-covered runway in South Bend, Ind. No one aboard was injured.

An investigation showed the plane's reverse-thrust mechanism, which is key to slowing the aircraft after landing, had failed to engage and the plane was propelled down the runway by the forward thrusting engine.

An investigation by the National Transportation Safety Board showed the failure was due to a manufacturing or design problem. The agency issued two mandatory service bulletins in 1989 calling for repair of the reverse-thrust mechanism.

[/size]The plane, bound from LaGuardia Airport in New York, was attempting to land shortly after 6 p.m. It carried a chain-link fence across Route 28. Police said the aircraft did not hit any cars on the busy highway, although the uprooted fencing did hit an undetermined number of cars.

The plane was attempting to land in the midst of a storm that had dumped snow and sleet on Cape Cod all day. The wind at the time of the accident was from the north-northeast with gusts of more than 30 mph.

"It was just too slippery," said Jay Logan, a flight mechanic and engineer who was on board the plane. "We couldn't stop. It slid off the runway and went through the fence. It didn't hit anybody; we were very fortunate. It was touchdown and there was no braking; it was poor."

Richard Bunker of the Massachusetts Aeronautics Commission said weather may have been a factor, but said he could provide no specifics until the National Transportation Safety Board starts an investigation today.

Bunker said he could not provide information on the condition of the runway at the time of the crash.

The plane will probably be towed today, Bunker said. An environmental cleanup company is working to contain several hundred gallons of jet fuel spilled in the parking lot, Bunker said.

The airport remained closed last night after the accident.

Shivering, Logan sipped black coffee inside Osco Drug while police spoke with the pilot outside.

Logan, from Chicago, said the plane had just arrived from LaGuardia, where he, two other crew members and a passenger had been on business. He declined to give details of the business.

"Your weather is worse than it was there (in New York)," he said. "It was clean when we left." He said the crew was returning its passenger to Hyannis where the man lives with his family. "Our main concern was our passenger, and he's fine," said Logan.

[size=-1]A Falcon jet rests in the TJ Maxx Plaza parking lot last night in Hyannis after sliding through a fence surrounding Barnstable Municipal Airport. The accident caused the plane's wings to partially collapse. [/size]
[font=arial, helvetica](Staff photo by Vincent DeWitt) [/font]

Logan said he was on the telephone arranging ground transportation for the passenger when the incident happened. From inside, he said, he did not hear the noises witnesses described as "heinous" from the ground.

The plane, a Dassault Mystere Falcon 900B, is owned by 200 PS Aircraft Holdings Inc., according to Federal Aviation Administration records. It has three turbojet engines and can carry 12 people. They are generally privately owned corporate planes.

The area along Route 28, bustling with numerous shops and restaurants, is known to be very busy even on its slowest days. Last night, the parking lot was filled with cars, shoppers and the nearly 18-ton plane in the middle.

Diners ran from restaurants and employees emerged from stores, surrounding the plane, while traffic flowed through the parking lot, on Barnstable Road and on Route 28.

"This is just chaos," one Barnstable police officer said,

Mike Simpson, 24, on leave from the Navy and visiting from Connecticut, said the flying fence just missed his car. "I slammed on my brakes and the last piece of fencing went along the front of my car - it's a rental car," he said. "I immediately pulled over, popped my trunk and grabbed my medic bag. That's when I saw the fuel leaking."

Like many at the scene, Simpson said he was just waiting for an explosion as the smell of jet fuel grew stronger.


"Thank God there were no sparks or anything," he said.

Simpson immediately began ushering people away from the scene and helped evacuate nearby Mitchell's Steakhouse in the middle of a Saint Patrick's Day party.

Helen Flint, Mitchell's hostess, said the restaurant was almost full of patrons enjoying corned beef and cabbage, lamb Wellington and shepherd's pie. Fearing an explosion, firefighters asked everyone to leave because of jet fuel flowing into a drain that leads to the restaurant.

"It's a killer," she said. "This was a really big night for us. It's one of our biggest nights of the year."

At Strawberries Music, employees and a customer watched as the store windows bowed in from the force of the wind as the plane came to a stop.

Kerri Leboeuf, 20, a store employee, said she is so used to planes flying overhead she usually tunes them out.

The sounds last night, she said, were louder and had an eerie kind of echo. "I thought the plane landed on us, so I kept looking up, " she said.

William and Sylvia King of Bridgewater said they were driving toward the Hyannis rotary when the sound of a plane landing became extremely loud.

"The plane was coming up along side of us, and then my wife screamed, 'It's coming right at us,'" said William King, 75.

King said he swerved into the Staples parking lot near Osco Drug, but not before a chain-link fence the plane was dragging struck the side of the couple's Camry.

The metal ripped the side of the car, taking off a side mirror. Sylvia King said the fence also struck the top of the car in front of them.

The police reported no injuries from the accident itself.

William King was later taken to Cape Cod Hospital, complaining of stress and high blood pressure.

"The plane crossed right in front us," King said. "Traffic was so bad. Do you know how close we came to death?"

Route 28 and several connecting roads were closed because of the fuel spill.

Bunker said it is possible the plane also damaged radio beacons on the airport property, but added that possibility was still being investigated.
 
Falcon Capt said:
Uh, the crew on one of the accidents stated that they weren't even aware the tail broke, stated that no unusal landing forces were noted... EMB later added strengthening and stiffing to the aft fuselage...

To be fair, that crew had a tail strike in the ERJ-145. I don't know of any aircraft that wouldn't snap a few stringers or buckle the tail after smacking their tail on the runway with some severe G loads.

Silver Wings said:
ERJ's/Legacy have just about 6 million hours to date.....and zero injuries/deaths associated with the aircraft.........

There were injuries in the COEX Beaumont crash.
 
I've never flown a Falcon but I believe they are built like brick $hithouses(not $hitcans...)

We did have a cancellation today. The IV was all cranked up and trying to beat me out of Signature EWR so he could slow down to .80 and pi$$ off my owner. He drops the door and starts waving his cellphone to us. We call him up and he has a nosewheel controller failure.

His pax come to our airplane. Gulfstream puts a part and a mech on the G100 and he should be home by now and the IV will be ready to go tomorrow morning.

That will teach the SOB to try to beat me outta the ramp! :D TC
 
I must put my .02 cents on this subject matter and support Falcon Capt and GVflyr. Having flown both the EMB-135/Legacy and older G-II aircraft, you cannot compare the two as far as Power, performance or reliability and quality in aircraft construction and design. The Gulfstream is superior hands down! You cannot compare the two! Its Apples and Oranges. Yes the Legacy is slightly more comfortable and is just as modern and any gulfstream except for the lack of auto-throttles. But you just cannot compare climbing at 300kts (above 10,000) to .80 all the way up to 41,000ft in any of todays gulfstreams....christ they used to be built by Grumman dude!!! You know, the company that makes F-14's!?!?!?. So LegacyDriver, we are happy that you are rock H$rd for you bird, but maybe you should stay on the porch just a little longer till you grow up.
 

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