Legacy Bashfest - Bring it on!

[LegacyDriver]

Since you say the data is wrong, why don't you contribute with the Legacy's correct numbers...........

I am currently homeless and internetless so I can't help much. All my books are in the airplane and it is out making money without me today.

Silver posted some info from the EMB book. Perhaps he will pop in here.

Last airplane's BOW was 29,500 range...

No performance numbers exist for max climb to 390 then cruise, either. I would have to dig them out of the FMS next week to give you "real world" figures. I am also waiting to see if EMB revises the AOM for FL410 performance. I am told they are going to use the 390 numbers for 410 which is going to be a conservative approach that will not show the airplane's true worth.

 

[banned username 2]

the WSofD is at about 96% with 10

I think it is important that we clarify something here...

Is it WSofD or WSCofD? Is it "Shítcan" or "Shít Can"... I'm thinking the former vs. the latter... Does everyone else agree???

 

[LegacyDriver]

Someone in the tower called us a Gulfstream the other day. I was so insulted. What was worse is some ground controller told us (sometime earlier in the week) to give way to an Embraer. It was a Global Express. YUCK.

 

[banned username 2]

Someone in the tower called us a Gulfstream the other day. I was so insulted. What was worse is some ground controller told us (sometime earlier in the week) to give way to an Embraer. It was a Global Express. YUCK.

But I bet you wish you were paid like those guys! It's all about dollars and days off...

 

[LegacyDriver]

It's not at all about money but I guarantee you I have more days off. And that's worth all the money in the world.

At least he didn't call me a Falcon. I would have had to puke.

 

[LegacyDriver]

BTW I may not be in the Gulfstream class (I have yet to meet a G-driver that makes what NBAA claims, but...) but I make a hell of a lot more than I did at the Regionals *AND* get more time off.

 

[TAG2]

It's not at all about money but I guarantee you I have more days off.

Days off while the can is in MX don't count.

 

[TAG2]

BTW I may not be in the Gulfstream class (I have yet to meet a G-driver that makes what NBAA claims, but...) but I make a hell of a lot more than I did at the Regionals *AND* get more time off.

I made $483,389,921.32 just last week.

Your posts are just getting more and more ridiculous, so I thought I would just make up some numbers in my head for ya.

 

[AA717driver]

No autothrottles? Are you $h!tting me?

Glad you have a good deal, LD, that's what it's all about.

My only experience with the EMB is following one out of STL in the 717. We were both heading south and we step climbed and were speed restricted all the way to cruise where we could get above him. He was going to SHV and we to IAH. Had to drop all my trips that month just to keep from pulling my hair out...

Oh yeah, $h!tcan is one word.TC

 

[NJAFracPilot]

Hell if the Legacy was a $30 M airplane we wouldn't be calling it a POS. It would be a "prestige" product or whatever nonsense you guys spout to justify the Peachjet's overpriced tag..

No, the Legacy would still be a POS and you'd still be a dope.

 

[banned username 2]

It's not at all about money but I guarantee you I have more days off. And that's worth all the money in the world.

At least he didn't call me a Falcon. I would have had to puke.

I'm done flying for the year, total of 3 days in December... Care to compare days off? Oh, and in July I flew 3 days also...

 

[banned username 2]

Oh yeah, $h!tcan is one word.TC

Thanks for confirming that! Glad we got that cleared up, wouldn't want to inadvertantly insult anyone!

So officially it is the: WSofD I guess for an ICAO Flight Plan you would have to shorten the "Aircraft Type" to "WSOD"...

The funniest part about the WSofD is a "WSOD" pilot with 2,000 hours in "The Can" is the one that donned it with such an appropriate name!!!

 

[CatYaaak]

..... but I make a hell of a lot more than I did at the Regionals *AND* get more time off.

It's sad, but the same could be said for stocking shelves at Wal Mart.

 

[GVFlyer]

wsod

Why Embraer does not update its numbers is beyond me but the Legacy II beats everything EMB has put out to date in printed form. They are conservative and that is to their detriment.

They're not conservative, like everything else about Embraer and their products, they're cheap. It costs money to go out and fly drag polars then do the analysis for a new cruise manual. Maybe they thought the small delta in performance wasn't worth the expense or maybe there wasn't a delta because original data was taken in a green airplane and new data would have to be collected in a completed airplane.

Hell if the Legacy was a $30 M airplane we wouldn't be calling it a POS. It would be a "prestige" product or whatever nonsense you guys spout to justify the Peachjet's overpriced tag.
.

Wall Street terms the Gulfstream a "Premium Branded Product".

Even though it would be rational to compare the Legacy to the G200, the CL300, or the Falcon 2000, which are at similar price points, if you feel compelled to compare it to a large cabin Gulfstream, why haven't you said anything about the G350?

It costs $27.5 million (Legacy $21.15 Million) and offers the following features:

Planeview Cockpit

Range - Normal Cruise: 3,800 nm @ M 0.80 (Legacy 3220 nm@ M 0.74 / 2950 nm @ M 0.78)

Range - High Speed Cruise: 3,100 nm @ M 0.85

Max. Cruise Speed: M 0.88 (Legacy M 0.80)

Min. initial Alt: FL410 (Legacy FL370)

Max. Alt: FL450, cabin alt. 5980 ft. (Legacy FL390 (8100 ft) / FL410 (8800 ft.)

T/O Dist MGTOW: 5,050 (Legacy 5,770)

Ldg. Dist MLW: 3,260 @ 66,000 lb

DOC: $1731 /hr (Legacy $1615 /hr)

Max T/O wt.:70,900 lb (Legacy 49,604)

Cabin Dimensions: 40'4"L X 6'2"H X 7'4" W (Legacy 43L (including cockpit) X 5'10" H X 6'11" W)

Engine TBO: 12,000 hours

Max usefull load: 6,300 lb (Legacy 5291)

Max. Load w/ full fuel: 2,858 lb (Legacy 1605)

Most thinking people would agree that this comparison proves the adage, "You get what you pay for" when you buy a Gulfstream. It's clear that when you stand the two airplanes side by side, the Legacy's lackluster performance and squatty cabin proves the G350 is a real bargain and that's before you factor in the Legacy's third world fit and finish.

Of course with the order backlog Gulfstream has for the G350, you'll have to wait until 2nd quarter 2006 to get yours.

And by the way, my compensation package is a multiple of NBAAs 90th percentile pay as it is for most senior captains at Fortune 500 companies like Proctor and Gamble, Pfizer, GM, Ford, IBM, GD, UHG, and 3M. Even places like AVJet pay $140,000 per annum and the guy that brings you in gets a $2500 bonus if you stay.

GV










.

 

[CatYaaak]

Wall Street terms the Gulfstream a "Premium Branded Product".

Even though it would be rational to compare the Legacy to the G200, the CL300, or the Falcon 2000, which are at similar price points, if you feel compelled to compare it to a large cabin Gulfstream, why haven't you said anything about the G350?

It costs $27.5 million and offers the following features:

Planeview Cockpit

Range - Normal Cruise: 3,800 nm @ M 0.80 (Legacy 3220 nm@ M 0.74 / 2950 nm @ M 0.78)

Range - High Speed Cruise: 3,100 nm @ M 0.85

Max. Cruise Speed: M 0.88 (Legacy M 0.80)....etc., etc. etc.

GV
QUOTE]

Once again GVFlyer uses facts to deliver a crushing blow in this inane mismatch!

LegacyDriver, that's gotta hurt, son, since you seem to take this all so emotionally and personally.

And why is it (for an airplane you are so gung-ho about) others keep having to dig out the performance numbers for it? You just keep repeating something about your "feeling" that Gulfstreams are somehow not a tough or reliable airframe (something that a decades-long history of flying them all over the world absolutely refutes) because you imagine that the ERJ's high-cycle, regional airline roots make it something special.

You also gloss-over the fact that the ERJs in service with regional airlines (what you base your dispatch reliablity beliefs on) don't ALSO have a cadre of mx techs at domociles and contract mx at outstations doing inspections every few days, fixing squawks every night, or that nothing gets written up? That aircraft swaps due to mx never occur? Do you believe this doesn't happen because as an airline pilot you had the luxury of hightailing it for the crew bus within 15 minutes of shutting down, or not being in the aircraft-shuffling loop scheduling and dispatch do unbeknownst to the crews prior to being assigned an aircraft?

What's your next fantasy...telling us you feel that ERJ's/Legacys don't even need MEL's?

The more numbers I see, the less impressed I am with it for the price they're asking and DOC's cited, especially compared against others in it's price range, let alone G-lVs. Comparatively speaking, they fly low (bad for wx/turb/efficiency options available to the pilots..and hugely important to corporate pax), slow (don't buy a jet to go slow), and from the numbers seems like a groundhog compared to Gstreams or Falcons for any given trip. That doesn't even factor in the hunchback-cabin issue the Legacy has, but the others don't.

It looks like a good enough airplane if your need is for a high-density seating, domestic (where you can probably get OK product support) transcon corporate shuttle for short people or something. Outside of that niche, however, I really can't see it's appeal on a factual/performance/comfort basis when compared to other types you could spend the money on.

 

[fokkerjet]

Someone in the tower called us a Gulfstream the other day. I was so insulted. What was worse is some ground controller told us (sometime earlier in the week) to give way to an Embraer. It was a Global Express. YUCK.

I feel your pain......we're called a Falcon 70 by almost all controllers; and we've been operating the plane for over 10 years. That's what happens when you fly oddball airplanes......

 

[GVFlyer]

I feel your pain......we're called a Falcon 70 by almost all controllers; and we've been operating the plane for over 10 years. That's what happens when you fly oddball airplanes......

Ouch!

Everyone knows the common name for the Fokker is the "Dutch Oven." Sorry, didn't mean it, I like Fokkers, particularly their empennages. I just have a friend at AA and that's what he calls his F100.

GV

 

[fokkerjet]

Ouch!

Everyone knows the common name for the Fokker is the "Dutch Oven." Sorry, didn't mean it, I like Fokkers, particularly their empennages. I just have a friend at AA and that's what he calls his F100.

GV

Personally, I like "little Fokker", and when I get a chance to fly one, "Mother Fokker"

 

[LegacyDriver]

First of all I wonder where you are pulling out those DOC/hour costs. Secondly our min direct alt is going to be 410 in January (I believe). That wipes out that argument. Thirdly, that extra 7m bucks would earn quite a lot of interest if invested or pay for a lot of gas.

Not worried about it. The plane will sell just fine.

As for being cheap on the manuals I honestly never considered that. That could very well be the case. What I *am* telling you is the airplane I fly (must be a fluke, it can't be for real) beats every number in the book by a fair margin (range, ROC, runway, fuel burn). The airplanes that were used for performance (particularly PT-SAB) had 70 gallon water tanks (you don't need that much for 13 ppl that's for 37!), windshield wipers, beefed up wing structure that was later determined excessive (gave us more gas than listed for Legacy I numbers) lacked fairings for wheels and avionics bay intakes, had more fire suppressive foam in the forward tanks than were needed (that gave us several hundred pounds of gas right there) etc. etc. etc.. They were heavier and draggier. Not sure if they used the "E" engines or not but if they didn't that is a big change, too. I don't think they used E-CLB thrust (which we have now) and am sure they followed the old RJ 240/270/290 climb profiles which are not what we use in the Legacy.

The performance boost from the winglets was also tuned down even though it does work out to about 5-7% (they used 2.5% or something).

I hate to break it to you but I don't carry an AOM around with me. It's off in the airplane and I don't have the patience to type it all into a PDA any way. When I get my computer up and running then we'll talk. Hopefully someone will beat me to it.

 

[AcroChik]

Sorry if someone else already caught this but...,

"13 m compounded 7 percent over 10 years equals 27.54 million."

The supposed ten~year compounded savings from buying his ride as opposed to one of those piece of junk Gulfstreams.

Flag on the play!

13 million compounded at an annual interest rate of 7% over a ten year term actually equals 25.573 million.

Based on the thesis that:

So: GIV total outlay 35.
Resale of 35 * .75 is 26.25 m

EMB outlay 21m - 21m depreciation is zero.
13 m compounded 7 percent over 10 years equals 25.573 (correct number).

The EMB is now under water by $677,000.

As everyone here knows, I'm in no position to judge these particular airplanes, but I can do math.

This is not a significant error, only a couple million of some billionaire's money. But this fellow is also calculating how far stuff will fly before all the kerosene is converted to hydrogen dioxide and chem trails.