Legacy Bashfest - Bring it on!

[banned username 2]

So...let me get this right....... numbers are good for calculating Falcon/Gulfstream things............ but when the numbers go the other way, then we stop using numbers and rely on 'opinion'........

I'm glad we sort of agree.

It all boils down to opinion in the end......... we all have a different take......

Some will take a Gulfstream / Falcon and (and incrasing) some will take a Legacy........
The 'numbers' are just not going to the final part of the issue.

Number are good, problem is no one has posted any numbers for the "Whistling Shítcan of Death" that dispell the fact that the Gulfstreams run circles around it (performance wise) all day long... The only thing the Lagacy has going for it is it's cheap... But then again, so is a Yugo...

 

[Uncle Sparky]

Heh Spanky...... are you trying to push me into defending the Hansa ? No can do buddy.

Nope Silver Wang........just intertaining my own childish perversions?! My knowledge of the Legacy doesn't extend beyond my observation of the miles of runway that I've watched the ERJ consume at my local airport. I take it you like the little fellas? Why is it that they seem to eat so much runway? Are they being really conservative with the power or do those engines produce the thrust equivalent of a standard household oscillating fan?

 

[Bad-Andy]

After more than 4000 hours in the "Whistling $hitcan of Death" (600 or so in the Legacy), I can say it is a good platform for it's designed mission. It is made as a cheaper replacement for older (worn out) G2's. I've never seen it compared to the G4s or G5s. It competes head to head with HS-125s and C-Xs. It is an affordable way for companies to step up from a medium cabin to a smaller large cabin jet. It will never compare to a G4 or 5 nor will it compare to a Global. But, just because it is in a different (lessor) category doesn't make it crappy. Anyways..... Flame retardant suit on.....

 

[Silver Wings]

After more than 4000 hours in the "Whistling $hitcan of Death" (600 or so in the Legacy), I can say it is a good platform for it's designed mission. It is made as a cheaper replacement for older (worn out) G2's. I've never seen it compared to the G4s or G5s. It competes head to head with HS-125s and C-Xs. It is an affordable way for companies to step up from a medium cabin to a smaller large cabin jet. It will never compare to a G4 or 5 nor will it compare to a Global. But, just because it is in a different (lessor) category doesn't make it crappy. Anyways..... Flame retardant suit on.....

Exactly the point. (You can add G200's along with the H125 and C-X and I suppose the CL300...but that seems like quite a worthwhile bird).

If you really need the range take the G4/5 G-X, but if you don't then the legacy should be on the list to look at....that's been the whole point all along.

 

[Bad-Andy]

If you really need the range take the G4/5 G-X, but if you don't then the legacy should be on the list to look at....

That's not what I'm getting at. There is a heck of a lot more than just the range or price that goes into the decision. The cabin height is a huge deal for some purchasers. For others, the world wide support network that Gulfstream has in place is more important than cost. Getting stuck in Africa waiting for a part to come in from Embraer can cost a lot of time and money (I know because it happenned to me more than once...), negating the savings on the initial purchase price. Any time we got stuck, guess what came to the rescue... A beautiful G5.

Anyways... My point was why the heck are we trying to compare the two??? They are different aircraft with different missions. The G4/G5 kills the Legacy on range, speed, altitude, comfort, and support around the world. But, what about all the companies that fly domestic, couple of thousand mile legs, that like the comfort, but can't afford a Gulfstream? That is where the Legacy comes in. It is a different niche. On those short (relatively speaking) legs, the Legacy is the same speed, same comfortable ride, and a lot cheaper.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

Anyways... My point was why the heck are we trying to compare the two???

...cause' some Legacy pilot initiated this whole novel......

It is a different niche. On those short (relatively speaking) legs, the Legacy is the same speed, same comfortable ride, and a lot cheaper.

I think that's the point the "pro-everyotherjet" people were trying to make.

 

[Silver Wings]

Nope Silver Wang........just intertaining my own childish perversions?! My knowledge of the Legacy doesn't extend beyond my observation of the miles of runway that I've watched the ERJ consume at my local airport. I take it you like the little fellas? Why is it that they seem to eat so much runway? Are they being really conservative with the power or do those engines produce the thrust equivalent of a standard household oscillating fan?

I'm just a sucker for the underdog..... Heh there are so many bashin the Legacy i thought somebody should at least point out the other side of the story. Sure I like em.... have flown in them, and Gulftsreams (GIVSP, GV, Galaxy and F2000 and F20, H800XP, BE400A, CE750 etc etc) PAX only.....(actually the only way to form a realistic judgement). I'm engineer, so you get to see both sides.

There seem to be some Legacy jocks now defending the little 'un..... so I don't need to be into this anymore...and I got a life to lead.

So....back to your points.

Watch how much runway a g-string uses with 40+ pax and luggage on board........!!!!

Anyway, the Legacy is basically an ERJ135 with the highest thurst engines available for the ERJ-145 (The R-R AE3007 A1E.....)......OK so they ain't Tay's but they're still pushin and at ISA+22C about the highest flat rated about and with FADEC's.


On the basis there are never any Legacy numbers.....I thought I'd add this into the pot. Sure they aren't going to set hearts on fire...but it does the job.

SMO to TEB 24kt tail wind (Boeing 85%) (Climb and descent with wind. M0.78 FL410 Flight time 4:52 with fuel a shade under 10,000lbs, carrying 8 pax and baggage (about 2,000lb load), temps (ISA +9 at SMO 85%July temp).

TEB to SMO 68kt headwind (Boeing 85%) (Climb and descent with wind. M0.78 FL390 (OK wrong but only a calc) Flight time 5:54 with fuel a shade under 13,100lbs, carrying 8 pax and baggage (about 2,000lb load), temps (ISA +13 at TEB 85%July temp).

Only aircraft that I see competes on the value stakes is the CL300...and that is a might less of a cabin (65% less cabin volume) for a 4 to 5 hour run and a whole lot less baggage capacity (not even half the baggage in fact 240cu ft to 106 cu ft)....but there are gonna be different views on this for sure.

I haven't flown on a CL300. Have flown a CL604.... nice, quiet....wide.....SHORT. looking forward to trying a CL300 someday.

 

[Silver Wings]

That's not what I'm getting at. There is a heck of a lot more than just the range or price that goes into the decision. The cabin height is a huge deal for some purchasers. For others, the world wide support network that Gulfstream has in place is more important than cost. Getting stuck in Africa waiting for a part to come in from Embraer can cost a lot of time and money (I know because it happenned to me more than once...), negating the savings on the initial purchase price. Any time we got stuck, guess what came to the rescue... A beautiful G5.

Anyways... My point was why the heck are we trying to compare the two??? They are different aircraft with different missions. The G4/G5 kills the Legacy on range, speed, altitude, comfort, and support around the world. But, what about all the companies that fly domestic, couple of thousand mile legs, that like the comfort, but can't afford a Gulfstream? That is where the Legacy comes in. It is a different niche. On those short (relatively speaking) legs, the Legacy is the same speed, same comfortable ride, and a lot cheaper.

I think we basically agree.

 

[GVFlyer]

Your economic model is simplistic and absurd, not to mention naive; your assumptions are invalid. When Gulfstream sells an airplane it is not just the sales exec and the CEO who are involved, the company has fully staffed legal and financial departments to help with purchasing strategies. Issues of tax, depreciation, amortization and whether direct purchase or lease is most cost effective, must be determined.

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Ah, but resale value is not that important in this case. Using a G-IV as an example (with a V the Legacy looks even better I think)...

Your 35 million dollar Peachjet will resell for say, 75 percent of its value (if you buy a new one) to the dealer.

The most expensive Gulfstream I listed sold for 31.9 million new; the least expensive $24 million. All sold at between 87% and 90.6% of their new purchase price. None were sold by Gulfstream (the "dealer"). Gulfstream has no preowned GIV's available, nor any GIV derivatives. They were sold by brokers: Bloomer deVere, Wealth and Jet Brokers.

Even if my 21 million dollar EBJ is worth ZERO I am going to come out fairly even.

No, the loss of value will be your cost of ownership.

I am paying financing on a smaller principle (read lower interest!)

Which may or may not be an advantage depending upon whether or not you can charge it off.

and the money I saved (14 million) is earning money. (Let's just assume 7 percent a year for grins - I just brought in13.54 million over ten years for my money).

So: GIV total outlay 35.
Resale of 35 * .75 is 26.25 m

EMB outlay 21m - 21m depreciation is zero.
13 m compounded 7 percent over 10 years equals 27.54 million.

If legal and Gulfstream Financial Services determine that in your particular situation it is better advised to lease rather than take the accelerated depreciation, there is a purchase price, but no capital outlay, just a monthly payment.

Legacy wins by nearly 1.3 million not factoring interest expense and DOC. Point being is resale value doesn't necessarily matter that much because my plane is so much more affordable. My money and my plane are working for me at 35 million.

Disregarding your other erroneous assumptions, once you adjust the DOC for the speed differential between the G450/G550 and the Legacy, the difference in direct operating cost is 9% not counting Gulfstream's retained value which would further reduce the differential.

GV

 

[banned username 2]

All that good info aside, who wants to ride in a "Whistling Shítcan of Death" anyhow???

That is the best analogy I have heard, I am still laughing at that one!

"Whistling Shítcan of Death"

Your killin' me!