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Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

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Fdx and Ups guys calm down I was merely making a point to the guy that was posting about how JB was solely responsible for the downturn of this industry as he pointed out. I was not trying to insult those of you making $211 and hour I was merely making a point about listed year one rates
 
You guys are crazy if you think the snot-nosed little punks coming out of the pilot mills these days flying an RJ for 2 years, upgrading to CA, getting their 1000 PIC jet, then applying to ANY large aircraft airline are going to blink twice at jumping on board regardless of what happens to the industry.

Do you think for one second they CARE?

Do you believe for just one IOTA of a moment that there aren't thousands of them churning out every month?

That's the real problem we face: an influx of pilots who don't give a rat's, who are happy to make more than $50k a year getting into an Airbus or a Boeing under age 30, and won't grow a clue until they hit 50, start thinking about retirement, and complain about how much the profession has declined.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you are a professional pilot under the age of 50, you absolutely MUST find a business outside of aviation that will continue to pay you after you retire and make flying your hobby. Unions have fewer and fewer teeth as the years go by, we have less and less solidarity every year, and there will always be the next startup with lower and lower pay.

There is no fix to this; we've already reached critical velocity in the slow spiral down the crapper.


p.s. Again, Lowecur, if you were a pilot, you'd understand the ideas being presented here on the board. There is a symbiotic relationship between labor and management in keeping a business alive. One side can't simply live with the other causing it harm, and it will eventually lead to the demise of the business entity.

This isn't a socialist republic. There is no absolute requirement for the employees of a company to continue to accept substandard living and yearly pay cuts indefinitely simply to allow the company to survive. If it fails, it fails, and life WILL go on. At some point labor will recognize that fact and do whatever it has to do, regardless of what's good for the business.

Again, you have intelligence, but lack the depth of industry knowledge required for full understanding. We've been here before,,, and we will be here again.
 
Yep, that's me another pilot whore who needed a job to feed my wife and 2 kids. How selfish of me. And to think I left such a distinguished career in the Navy behind to whore myself out for such a lowly pittance.

Don't paint the jb pilot group with such a broad brush you moron. Notional national union? Is that like the notional EP-3 at airwing fallon?


1. You said JB, not me. Got a complex about something?

2. You didn't have to leave the Navy. Gotta complex about that too?

3. Notional EP-3? No, more like notional Close Escort, since the swing-wings were 4 to make 1 today. Or maybe it was notional Fox-3...turned out to be an AGM-64 again.

4. Since you brought up the Blue Dudes, I think representation will do you guys some good. Neelman isn't as interested in making you rich as he would have you seem.

Peace!
 
Nice post, Lear.
 
let who eat cake?

I think I said 10-15%, didn't I? Stop embellishing!;)

OK so it will maybe be closer to 10. I think we'll be able to scrape by on that.

They had 30 yrs to build up their cash reserves in an environment that was much different than today, and to my knowledge they never had an adversarial relationship with SWAPA (even though I'm predicting them thar days are over...too many former legacy zealots). Jetblue has a small window to get it right in the next few years, and their mgt has already proven that they are not infallable to making a wrong turn.

You are right about that. A small window to get it right. And they've messes up a lot lately. We shall see how they choose to proceed. Oh and that wonderful working relationship, wether it be ALPA, SWAPA, JBPA or whoever, will never come from a hostile management team calling their plays from the Ford and Harrison playbook.


You can't use CASM as a marker when you are flying an average stage length of over 1000mi.

Our stage length has decreased a lot this year. Any way you slice it, we are a rock bottom, dirt cheap, highly productive labor source. We should at least not be penalized for that.

So what's wrong with everyone being productive? Did it change your QOL?

It affects QOL, at JetBlue just as it does at SWA. That's fine, if there's a tradeoff, like there is at SWA. But when your productivity is disregarded entirely, or worse, used against you (and I think you know what I'm talking about) then that's a problem.

You've already proven to me you're not a team player with your comments that the little guy will have to eat cake.

Not a team player? Are you kidding me? I'm extra effort, above and beyond, motivated dedicated to the core. It takes 11 guys on a football team to score a touchdown, and all are equally motivated to work towards getting a championship ring. But the quarterback makes more than a lineman, and that's A-OK with me. If the lineman can't handel it, he can go to QB tryouts. JB loves to promote from within. Any FA, gate agent, ramper, etc who covets the job/pay/future B fund, etc of a pilot can put in his app. He/she will be treated with extreme preference once he/she meets minimum (or probably reduced) qualifications. But an entry level job with w few days/weeks of training is an entry level job, period. I did entry level jobs in aviation before, so have many others. I wanted more so I moved on. It never even occured to me to forever accept the very self imposed status quo that irked me, then turn around and unrighteously covet the hard earned prosperity of other professions. Its not about eating cake. This is America. You don't like your lot, rise above. But be prepared to work/train/get educated for it. I have little tolerance for pinkos who think they can get an entry level job with little or no education, experience or training required, punch the clock for years while never trying to better themselves or move up, then feel entitled to professional parity with others who'se cost of entry into what they percieve as a cushy gig is quite simply beyond their comprehension. Its not me telling them to eat cake my friend. Its them telling me to eat cake, and me politely telling them, with all due respect, to get over it.

I personally would like to see an in-house union on the property, but beginning in 2008. Hopefully, they will take a Que from SWAPA's early leadership and partner to build the company's war chest so that they can remain viable during the next downturn. I must say that I am skeptical having read the comments from other participants that are itching for a fight. I still think private is the way to go for Jetblue as that will shut off the realtime flow of financial information to the employee groups (the catalyst of the current unrest).

What's the difference between 2007 and 2008? If its an amicable relationship in the first place, what difference does it make when it starts? If we need to and decice to unionize, there are pros and cons to both national (ALPA, IBT, etc) unions and in house. You can't accuse the pilots of "itching for a fight" and not accuse some leaders/managers of the same. It works both ways. How the powers that be handel things these next few short months will likely determine the necessary equal and opposite reaction from its pilots both short and long term. I don't know anyone who'se "itching for a fight" or who wants to burn the house down, or choke the golden goose. Everyone I've met wants JB to suceed, and not just barely. But, as always, management will get the type of union (if at all) that they deserve. It can be like SWAPA, even if its ALPA. Or not. The pilots are only half of the equation.


:pimp:​


.....
 
You guys are crazy if you think the snot-nosed little punks coming out of the pilot mills these days flying an RJ for 2 years, upgrading to CA, getting their 1000 PIC jet, then applying to ANY large aircraft airline are going to blink twice at jumping on board regardless of what happens to the industry.

Do you think for one second they CARE?

Do you believe for just one IOTA of a moment that there aren't thousands of them churning out every month?

That's the real problem we face: an influx of pilots who don't give a rat's, who are happy to make more than $50k a year getting into an Airbus or a Boeing under age 30, and won't grow a clue until they hit 50, start thinking about retirement, and complain about how much the profession has declined.

Wow... you're one of the few guys in this thread that really seems to understand how grave this problem is.

An interesting statistic I recently came across is one that surveyed RJ pilots and found out that the commuters are filled with 2nd and 3rd career guys and girls. These are people that got fed up with their 9/5 job with $50K/yr paychecks and had a friend who was a pilot and then one thing led to another and before you know it... the 35 year old, 1000TT new hire...

The flood of labor going into the commuters is 90% of the problem with the flood of "qualified" applicants going to the nationals/majors (in a traditional sense).

This is the elephant in the livingroom.
 
I can definitely agree with that statement.

When I was at PCL, only 1 or 2 guys/gals out of a dozen were college-educated mid-20's pilots with experience in flight instruction / charter and working their way through the ranks.

The rest were either all PFT folks or 2nd career folks or both. Quite a few are friends, but I really get upset when they look at JB pay and think that $100k by year 5 CA is all they'll ever need, especially if it's double or 4 or 5 times what they were making before.

Wonder how long it will take them to start changing their tune. Also wonder if they will EVER realize it was THEIR OWN WILLINGNESS to accept a job that paid food-stamp wages as an F/O that helped drag the industry down to where they're lucky to break 6 figures EVER.

The more people who take these jobs at startups for $65k a year as a CA on a Boeing or Airbus aircraft, the lower the wages across the industry will go.

P*sses me off...

/rant
 
Quite a few are friends, but I really get upset when they look at JB pay and think that $100k by year 5 CA is all they'll ever need, especially if it's double or 4 or 5 times what they were making before.


Uh...Yr 5 is not 100k.


P*sses me off...
 
Quite a few are friends, but I really get upset when they look at JB pay and think that $100k by year 5 CA is all they'll ever need, especially if it's double or 4 or 5 times what they were making before.


Uh...Yr 5 is not 100k.


P*sses me off...

Well, lets do some math..

70hrs guarantee X $121/hr = $101,900

even if we assume you can fly yout 1000hrs a year.. that's $121,000... or roughly 2/5 what a WN captain flying 1000 hrs in year 5 makes..

Now... look at this data, and tell me what's wrong with this picture? (Hint, study the average column)

http://www.avjobs.com/salaries-wages-pay/index.asp

Does it make you feel good to know you're part of the problem and not the solution? God Bless those Southwest pilots and the other carrier groups that are busy trying to RAISE the bar!
 
Well, lets do some math..

70hrs guarantee X $121/hr = $101,900

even if we assume you can fly yout 1000hrs a year.. that's $121,000... or roughly 2/5 what a WN captain flying 1000 hrs in year 5 makes..

Now... look at this data, and tell me what's wrong with this picture? (Hint, study the average column)

http://www.avjobs.com/salaries-wages-pay/index.asp

Does it make you feel good to know you're part of the problem and not the solution? God Bless those Southwest pilots and the other carrier groups that are busy trying to RAISE the bar!

You're on a soapbox about raising the bar and you work for Gemini? Where a 14 year MD-11 Captain tops out at $144/hr and an FO gets $93?

What are you, an idiot?
 
You're on a soapbox about raising the bar and you work for Gemini? Where a 14 year MD-11 Captain tops out at $144/hr and an FO gets $93?

What are you, an idiot?

Ok, since you don't bother reading the thread, and my last address to this meaningless point..

-Gemini went thru BK early this year, as you may or may not know.. most airlines that file BK don't give their pilots pay raises, on the contrary, they cut their pay.. and with that Gemini still pays about what your VERY profitable and fast growing company pays.. hmm..

-Gemini is in a realm (multi-contract ACMI) with many non-union (like B6) players that are keeping wage pressure down.

-Gemini is ALPA, and the union will get back what it lost, when the company is profitable again.. and when our contract is amendable. If not, I'll be applying elsewhere.

NOW... Lets compare apple to apples..

WN to B6...

Your move.
 
I turned in my resignation to B6 recently, so I wouldn't exactly defend them as an organization.

But you're still an idiot.

:rolleyes:
 
I turned in my resignation to B6 recently, so I wouldn't exactly defend them as an organization.

But you're still an idiot.

:rolleyes:

Nice rebut Albert. Let me summarize your recent contribution to this thread: I don't work for Jet Blue, don't like them, and I think the guy who thinks they're dragging down wages is an idiot... but I have nothing intelligent to add to the discussion since ad hominem attacks are so much easier than trying to place thoughts on the screen for the benefit of the debate.


Sometimes I wonder if some of the people pretending to be pilots on these boards are really pilots, and not airline managers.

take care Einstein.
 
Nice rebut Albert. Let me summarize your recent contribution to this thread: I don't work for Jet Blue, don't like them, and I think the guy who thinks they're dragging down wages is an idiot... but I have nothing intelligent to add to the discussion since ad hominem attacks are so much easier than trying to place thoughts on the screen for the benefit of the debate.


Sometimes I wonder if some of the people pretending to be pilots on these boards are really pilots, and not airline managers.

take care Einstein.


Tell me again how much you're flying that MD-11 around for, pinhead?

Because according to your logic, you should resign immediately in order to uphold the profession.
 
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I refer you to my answer on this only two posts ago... short attention span, eh?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showpost.php?p=1211428&postcount=351

Good night, and good luck with what ever you do.

If I remeber correctly Gemini pay before BK was still pathetic, and the work rules were more than horrible when compared to other ACMI carriers like Atlas or World . should they be asking you to resign because you are lowering the standards of the already lower ACMI segment?if you do any squed flights you are also lowering the bar for the likes of Polar.

even if you guys get back what you gave up you are still flying MD-11's for penauts with horrendous work rules.

you have been and are lowering the bar for Atlas ( on the acmi side ) and Polar (on the squed side) and their management uses/used your pitiful contract during their contract negotions.....get of your high pony.
 
I refer you to my answer on this only two posts ago... short attention span, eh?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showpost.php?p=1211428&postcount=351

Good night, and good luck with what ever you do.

V70 there is something i just dont understand here. You obviously must be hoping to someday get hired with Jb Wn or ?? The reason I say that is because your posts are full of conviction. You argue the JB pay and benes like the mailman that just got caught banging your dog at church on sunday

What i dont understand here is the following: Out of one side of your mouth you are bashing Jb like there is no tomorrow yet you dont work here and dont draw a paycheck from Jetblue?

YET I read your posts and you are defensive of a company that will layoff pilots at random when c checks are due and have some of the worst pay for PIC's in the industry. Are parking old airframes, and have a smoke and mirrors spin on the 747's that they will never get. $83 an hour for a 600,000 lb plus heavy.


AND you are are trolling around Xtrajet threads looking for all kinds of information about perspective hiring and job info yet they pay their 737 capts something like $53 an hour!!

So please let us all know why JB is the be all end all epitome of a scumbag employer paying around $115 an hour and $170 over 70 hrs for line captains
 
Ok, since you don't bother reading the thread, and my last address to this meaningless point..

-Gemini went thru BK early this year, as you may or may not know.. most airlines that file BK don't give their pilots pay raises, on the contrary, they cut their pay.. and with that Gemini still pays about what your VERY profitable and fast growing company pays.. hmm..

-Gemini is in a realm (multi-contract ACMI) with many non-union (like B6) players that are keeping wage pressure down.

-Gemini is ALPA, and the union will get back what it lost, when the company is profitable again.. and when our contract is amendable. If not, I'll be applying elsewhere.

NOW... Lets compare apple to apples..

WN to B6...

Your move.

How did WN compare with other 737 operators when it was only 6 years old? You can't expect B6 to start an airline and put pay and workrules at levels that typically take years to attain. Weren't we all complaining about WN "dragging" the industry down in the 90's? I'll bet if you compare SWA pay and retirement in 1977 to the other carriers flying 737's it would be more pathetic than B6's pay and retirement is now. Not really apples to apples comparison just because they are both LCC's.
 

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