Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[Spectre]

Yep, you're right. That raise was 5 years ago. Meanwhile, we have taken a 15 to 20% pay cut just due to the fact that we have no COLA. And those pay cuts apparently will continue (and continue to compound) indefinitely. No one at the road shows even MENTIONED some kind of COLA for the pilot group. No doubt that would have to be run by all the other work groups for their sign off on it first!

We also have no retirement to speak of - certainly nothing like the 10% B Fund Airtran has. Our healthcare plan can easily cost $500 a month on average when you count up premiums, deductibles, percentages, etc. - it is the joke of the industry and D2 just hinted it's gonna get worse!

Not to mention we were promised SWA wages when we got hired on. Gee, whatever happened to that?

Just talked to my buddy at NetJets. He gets a full match on his 401k up to the max contribution and his health coverage is just plain FREE! Plus, he said he'll gross about 145k this year and he is a skipper on the Citation! They also have fantastic work rules over there. He credits their awesome contract to the efforts of their union and the ability of the pilot group to hang tough and show some ballz while the negotiations dragged on. Food for thought.

I don't know what it takes to convince you Bayou. Guess you are one of those "We're just lucky to have a job" guys. I've met plenty throughout this industry and I don't believe those types are respected by anybody, including management.

Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion. But I believe you are way in the minority right now. Representation of the pilot group is coming, and coming fast. Probably ALPA. Just remember, collective bargaining is your RIGHT - many people fought and bled and put their azzes on the line to give you that precious right!! Time for all the pilot group to stand together as brothers. We're in this thing together!

I think you are the minority. There are many former furloughed ALPA pilots here at JB and I'm pretty sure they are not here because ALPA helped them get here. I for one am not a believer in unions. JB has a unique position among airlines with no unions on the property.

What prevails at unions are the senior guys get everything and the junior guys lose it all. Again, no furloughs and no pay give backs since this company started. I'm senior here and believe if bad times hit again, we will do everything (including reducing our flight hours) to take care of each other to not have any furloughs.

 

[Flyboi]

.....

 

[Spectre]

Spectre,

Get a clue son. The stock options are about worthless to anyone that isn't in the top 400 or so. I've got 1800 I'd sell you for 50 bucks...

Yeah, when I first got here my strike price was over 45 bucks/share. Now, they are positive and less than 13 bucks/share with splits. You can't please everyone but I think 75% of the pilots here will make a lot of dough next year. You don't have to be in the top 400. Some new hires this year got their shares for less than 9 bucks a share...

 

[Spectre]

Yeah, Spectre, it was the union that furloughed all of those guys.

It is all so clear now. Fng union.

FJ

No, let me clear it up for you. In this case, THE UNIONS DID NOT HELP PROTECT JOBS, PAY, OR PENSIONS. That's just the facts. You can blame management or 9/11 or an act of GOD if you want for the furloughs. It doesn't matter. Unions did not stand up to management in any case.

 

[Hank Hill]

Our pilots are given 6000 shares of JB stock options when they are hired. With the recent splits, some of us have over 20,000 shares. Since all pilots here are shareholders, we should think more long-term about overall company prosperity rather than short-term compensation. We all can make a lot more than our hourly pay if JB succeeds. Given the numbers for 2007, that just might happen.

Spectre, any JB pilot whose options are significantly in the black has either already liquidated them and invested the coin safely somewhere else...or they are complete idiots. Just as were the mopes at Enron.

Spectre = management shill

 

[Caveman]

Rez & F18-FDX,

I'm still an ALPA member in good standing and ALPA's aeromedical, legal and financial analysts are extremely good assets. My experience with ALPA politics and labor negotiations has been more good than bad, but there was plenty of bad. The main reason I would even consider ALPA again is because at B6 we don't currently outsource any of our flying to a regional partner. That removes the potential for a conflict of interest where national supports one group to the detriment of the other.

No one can deny the financial strength of ALPA and the fact they can get us up and running with a local fairly quickly. OTOH, SWAPA seems to be the ideal example of pilot representation. Their relationship with SWA is firm but cordial. It seems to work. ALPA still has an overly adversarial aspect that I find hinders meaningful dialogue.

I'd prefer a JBPA but I don't want it to take 3 years to get our act together. We need representation now, not in 2010.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez & F18-FDX,

No one can deny the financial strength of ALPA and the fact they can get us up and running with a local fairly quickly. OTOH, SWAPA seems to be the ideal example of pilot representation. Their relationship with SWA is firm but cordial. It seems to work. ALPA still has an overly adversarial aspect that I find hinders meaningful dialogue.

I'd prefer a JBPA but I don't want it to take 3 years to get our act together. We need representation now, not in 2010.

SWAPA's relationship with SWA is because of SWA management. They have decided to make unions there partners. ALPA is ready to be a partner with all managements. But management runs the show. It is thier airline and they have operational control. Thus, is ALPA "adversarial" becuase it is in thier nature or becuase they are tired of giving concessions only to see the Corp Elite give themselves bonuses with the givebacks they just handed over. Leadership starts at the top by those who have control of the company. Can you really hold any union accountable for setting the tone? That would be like saying the FO is responsible for setting the tone in the cockpit.

oh, so you want jet technology when it comes to representation and not baby steps in a Dayton bicycle shop.....

 

[hatetoadmitit]

DUMBEST ARGUMENT EVAR !!!!!!!!!

And with one simple post you beat him!

 

[zkmayo]

No flame intended, but what would any of you have done differently since 9/11 at your respective pilot groups to keep from what happened (furloughs, pay cuts, fleet reductions) from happening?

I honestly mean it as a thought provoking question, not rhetorical. Its not an easy one to answer.

 

[tomgoodman]

Good ol' boys

From the "ancient history" files: Charles Dolson, the pilot who organized ALPA at Delta, succeeded founder C.E. Woolman as CEO of the company. In today's adversarial environment, that kind of thing would never happen. Or maybe they were unusual leaders...

 

[ExpWayVis31]

I paid over $2000 in union dues in 2006, money well spent. So in addition to a COLA increase they also need an extra 1-2% raise to cover dues.

 

[Caveman]

SWAPA's relationship with SWA is because of SWA management. They have decided to make unions there partners. ALPA is ready to be a partner with all managements. But management runs the show. It is thier airline and they have operational control. Thus, is ALPA "adversarial" becuase it is in thier nature or becuase they are tired of giving concessions only to see the Corp Elite give themselves bonuses with the givebacks they just handed over. Leadership starts at the top by those who have control of the company. Can you really hold any union accountable for setting the tone? That would be like saying the FO is responsible for setting the tone in the cockpit.

oh, so you want jet technology when it comes to representation and not baby steps in a Dayton bicycle shop.....

Yes, the union is partly responsible for the tone of the relationship between pilots and management. I'm not new to ALPA and my experience has been that ALPA can be overly adversarial at times. I'm not giving management a pass, but ALPA doesn't always promote open communication either. Their hands are just as dirty as management's. SWAPA does a better job of that IMO. That's why I'd like to see our representation modeled after them. I'll take ALPA, but they are my second choice. I want no part of IBT.

You asked me why I preferred an independent union. I told you. Now, you want to argue with my reasons. I get it. You bleed ALPA red, white and blue. I and others that have some ALPA experience do not. They are not the be all end all of airline unions. They're just the biggest. I'd rather have our own union but I'm willing to tolerate ALPA. FWIW, the fact that Woerthless is gone is a big plus for ALPA. If he were still there I'd be much less inclined to have ALPA on property.

I have no idea what your last sentence is trying to convey. Humor?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes, humor on the last part. My apologies if it is weak.

Caveman, understand that national and international forces, including globalization are going to effect every airline pilot in the US.

Sure it takes two in any relationship. And sure ALPA is to blame. But you want to say that the people at ALPA are more to blame than in house people. Or company people? People are people are people. Same in the Marines. And this is your main reason for wanting an in house: you think ALPA is too advisarial. Respectfully, I think this is too presumptious. I can see the logic in having an in house union means more control of the union culture and mentality, but the loss in national and international affairs would be far to great and in my opinion create an ineffectual in house.

In order to protect this profession all of us are going to have to Band together. creating in house unions is a temporary fix and is based on old school thinking. It works for the pre-regulation, non globalized economy.

ALPA? I am willing to trade the name of ALPA for a new union if it meant bringing all pilots under one union. No doubt there is some concern with one union. But the benifits outweight that 10 to one.

Why isn't the APA back? It has been over fifty years. The only reason now is an emotional attachment to idendity.

DW has done plenty to defend this profession. The problem is you don't know it. So you think he has done a crappy job. Again that is his fault and your fault.

Here is a question. Do you believe the issues of globalization, multi-crew licenseing, open skies, foriegn control and ownership are real and if so do you think an in house union can protect your job from that? If they can't then what is the point?

 

[Caveman]

Yes, humor on the last part. My apologies if it is weak.

Caveman, understand that national and international forces, including globalization are going to effect every airline pilot in the US.

Sure it takes two in any relationship. And sure ALPA is to blame. But you want to say that the people at ALPA are more to blame than in house people. Or company people? People are people are people. Same in the Marines.

In order to protect this profession all of us are going to have to Band together. creating in house unions is a temporary fix and is based on onld school thinking. It works for the pre-regulation, non globalized economy.

ALPA? I am willing to trade the name of ALPA for a new union if it meant bringing all pilots under one union. No doubt there is some concern with one union. But the benifits outweight that 10 to one.

Why isn't the APA back? It has been over fifty years. The only reason now is an emotional attacment to idendity.

DW has done plenty to defend this profession. The problem is you don't know it. So you think he has done a crappy job. Again that is his fault and your fault.

Here is a question. Do you believe the isses of globalization, multi-crew licenseing, open skies, foriegn control and ownership are real and if so do you think an in house union can protect your job from that?

ALPA has serious conflict of interest issues between member airlines and has repeatedly chosen to protect some interests to the detriment of others. Woerthless was at the helm while this developed and IMO exacerbated the division amongst similiarly branded groups. Frankly, it's a cluster******************** and he should have been run out of there years ago. Whatever defending of the profession he did was greatly offset by the damage he did.

While you are concerned about globalization, etc, etc, the ALPA house is on fire. Fix the internal problems and then we can talk about the big picture. You're worrying about elephants and you're standing on an ant hill.

Despite all of that I still think ALPA is better than nothing and certainly better than the IBT. I believe an in-house union that is solely concerned about only one pilot group is the best way to go. I'll settle for ALPA if that's the way things play out.

 

[Ty Webb]

Caveman-

Why do you think that ALPA is better than IBT? What other choices are out there other than those two, or being an independent?