Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[BLUE BAYOU]

For all the Blue Guys, you should read this post from an Allegiant pilot, he has the right perspective on life... I wish we all could come back to earth like this guy... Posted in the LCC/Nationals...

I'm barely over 2 years, left seat, averaging $9K per month. Some guys w/ similar time get paid more w/ heavy crew ($10K-$11K). Is that enough for you? Not that I really care, as it's more than enough for me. You see, I don't have to completely ruin my personal life to get that. No personal time wasted sitting around airports on 4-hour layovers (been there), living 2/3 of my evenings out of a bag in yet another God-foresaken hotel room (done that), waiting in the snow for another crew van (yep, that too), or sitting between 2 sweaty fat dudes on a nail-biter commute (when I don't get bumped...). There are no stinkin' crash pads ($), spare cars ($), or daily expensive meals. I feel healthy: I can eat right, get to the gym frequently, and most importantly, I'm not chronically fatigued by wrecking my sleep schedule across 4 time zones every week (makes you old fast). The list goes on...

This job is a breath of fresh air in a profession that has become a complete nightmare. I average 12 -15 days a month (more--or less if I choose). Before I forget, here's the best part: I leave for work in the morning, and I'm back home by afternoon, BEFORE my wife gets home from work and the kids get home from school! Wow!...watching the kids grow up along with having the personal time to enjoy my life...what a concept.

Yes, you can make more elsewhere and visit your investments 2.5 days a week (starter castle, Lexus and whatever family/friends you'll have left). Knock yourself out,...you might even gain the distinction of being the richest guy (frog?) in the cemetary. Your standard issue airline ex-wives (3-4 usually) will enjoy your wealth but probably won't visit your grave...nor will the children who never knew you.

As I've stated in the past, it's not for everyone, but ideal for those who have their priorities in line. We come from a wide variety of backgrounds, many of which from majors. They have no intentions of going back...go figure.

If you don't like what Allegiant has to offer, apply elsewhere.

...And good luck chasing that elusive wealth and prosperity.

 

[Spectre]

I told you this a couple years ago, I'm going to say it again. You have no concept of management/labor relations. Speaking about something you don't understand only reveals how little you really know.

When the Furloughees were hired, JetBlue said you are going to like it here so much you will never go back. I guess they were wrong.

If you think a regional guy is trapped at JetBlue and stands a more likely chance of staying, I guess you failed to notice alot of other places are hiring.

Yeah, Delta is accepting pilot applications now. It's so good over there that so many of their pilots deferred recall that they now have to hire off the street. NWA will soon be hiring off the street as well by summer or fall of 2007. Not as many are returning to their former legacy carriers as you may think.

 

[Blue Dude]

Missing the point, Bayou. It's not about the money or the commute. It's about trust. The juice was great when you could trust our leadership and I was one of the biggest JB fans on here. But what has been given can also be taken away, without your consent. This has already begun.

I haven't changed, but JetBlue has, and not for the better. I don't see how any attitude change on my part will affect that.

 

[Spectre]

Missing the point, Bayou. It's not about the money or the commute. It's about trust. The juice was great when you could trust our leadership and I was one of the biggest JB fans on here. But what has been given can also be taken away, without your consent. This has already begun.

I haven't changed, but JetBlue has, and not for the better. I don't see how any attitude change on my part will affect that.

Agreed. Some in the ranks though still have some hope that D&D will get their act together. There definately needs to be more communication much like what happened when the ground workers tried to organize.

My feeling is D&D need to take better care of the number one asset here at JB and that is their people. If we have a business plan in place to purchase new aircraft, install XM radio in A320s, build new hangers, schoolhouse, and terminals, then there should also be some plan in place to fairly compensate your workers.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Lowecure,

Usually I agree with you but I got to tell you on this one you are wrong. Its not about the 320 guys. Its about mgnt telling us they would adjust the rates and do the right thing after the plane had been on property. They did adjust it...basicly 5 bucks on the CA side. As for the E190 fo's, yes, they did get a good bump and the pay came much closer to what it should be but for the rest of the rates, it was a slap in the face. As for the 320 guys, the least they could have done was give them a cola increase...but no, nothing. The health cost here are skyrocketing as well and they refuse to do anything about it because we cant have a seperate health care plan. During the road shows, many questions came about about "do you have the info on this or that?" and the answer was um....um...we dont have that. Its about putting our faith in the PCG only to find out that they did not represent us at all. they undercut the recommendations and had no communication with us about it. When asking one of them in person you got the cold shoulder...from our own. So, I think these reasons are just the tip of the iceberg. Like I said, had nothing to do with the 320 guys not getting anything, that was just part of it. The wonderful communication that we have has slowly erroded and it has become very obvious...to the point that even D Barger pointed it out yesterday. He satated that they need to do a better job communicating with us. I am tried to have faith as long as possible and still think they have it in them to make the proper changes that need to be made, but yesterday was a HUGE step in the wrong direction. They basicly invited ALPA on the property yesterday.

And lastly, I was a regional guy. I flew the 320 for 2 years and now the 190. I can tell you that it does not matter if you are regional, major, cargo, mil....everyone is pissed, especially the 190 guys.

I'm honestly confused.

For the past several years when a poster would suggest that the pilots at JBLU consider unionizing that poster was mercilessly crucified with a tirade of epithets that unions were "old school" thinking and unions destroyed the legacies, JBLU management was awesome and always does the right thing for its employees, "we're a team" here and you just don't "get" the "team atmosphere" here, etc...

Now, apparently "out of the BLU" ( ) all I'm reading is we want a union! What gives? How could things have been so great for 6 years and then turn sour seemingly overnight?

Worse yet, perhaps a few posters over the past years with significant airline experience that quietly said "your time will come" (i.e, for unionization)... actually KNEW what they were talking about after all. It's hard to admit when you've been duped or made a serious miscalculation (in this case about JBLU management being somehow "different and special") and its a great letdown when the honeymoon with management is over. My guess is that very few of your professional pilot colleagues at other carriers are reveling in your current predicament, rather they welcome you to the coalition (for lack of a better term.)

That's my .02 and wish you guys the best (except on that transcon turn thing... I hope that falls on its face!)

BBB

PS

 

[JetFumes]

Just speculating. But I would be shocked if private equity weren't talking to Jetblue about doing a deal. Neeleman would not be in favor because he is a control freak, and they could boot the two Dave's out the door and bring in their own mgt team. If the pilot's thought they were getting the shaft with these two, they should be careful what they wish for.

Of course an offer may come down the pike that the BOD would have to seriously look at (ie: Qantas). If they took it, my guess is the company would see a cash infusion of over $1B that would give them the cushion they needed to buy assets in an eventual consolidation.

imp:​

Give me a break. No one is going to buy us .We don't need a cash infusion. Dave and Dave aren't giving themselves a raise. No one is getting furloughed, 190 guys got a raise. 190 CA's, 320 CA's, 320 FO's could use a little more dough. JetBlue may post a profit for the year, and hopefully will do great next year. That will be the time to really start asking for a little more in my opinion. Look around everyone, its not real good anywhere right now save the usual suspects.

 

[ultrarunner]

I would think the better choice would be to go with a representative group that has resources. ALPA, IBT would be your best bets. In house unions have "No" resources in which to fight the coming battles!

Better the "devil" you know(ALPA, IBT) than the one you don't!

Good Luck and get moving!

Yeah, I'm sure swapa and apa are loosing sleep everynight since alpa is not on their properties.

 

[lowecur]

Give me a break. No one is going to buy us Really, and why not? We don't need a cash infusion. Yeah, you do. Jetblue is in hoc up to it's arz, and come the next downturn they may find themselves unable to compete against the legacys, make money and pay the bills. $600M cash was only achieved when they hocked the parts department last month. Dave and Dave aren't giving themselves a raise. Smart. No one is getting furloughed, 190 guys got a raise. 190 CA's, 320 CA's, 320 FO's could use a little more dough. JetBlue may post a profit for the year, and hopefully will do great next year. They should based on projections. That will be the time to really start asking for a little more in my opinion. I agree. Look around everyone, its not real good anywhere right now save the usual suspects.

IMO, Jetblue will not receive a firm offer unless consolidation begins. At that time, the BOD will probably receive an offer they may not be able to refuse. It's a tough world out there, and Jetblue is cheap at this point.

No one figured Qantas would get an offer, but they did. There is so much private equity money right now, it's impossible to say it's not in the cards.

imp:​

 

[007]

If we had a union, we would be in talks for years to get what the E-190 guys got for a raise. Better yet, how many airlines are giving raises at this time-- ah lets count them, ZERO!!! A unionized airline would have furloughed about 100 pilots this past September/October with the reduction in flight hours. No union thus far has retained anything as far as pay, benefits, pensions, or work rules for many of your so called "Legacy" carriers-- thanks, I'd rather keep my 2-3 percent than give it to those weak "live to fight another day" folks who are supposedly defending our way of life, RIGHT!!! They've done nothing but collapse to company demands time and time again...

Ahhhh, the good old Skywest mentality......."if I just close my eyes it will go away".

 

[skiandsurf]

If we had a union, we would be in talks for years to get what the E-190 guys got for a raise.

You mean, if you had a union those planes would have been parked for a long time until you reached an agreement on acceptable payrates for the E190.

 

[zkmayo]

You mean, if you had a union those planes would have been parked for a long time until you reached an agreement on acceptable payrates for the E190.

or flown by xyz contract carrier

 

[SonicPig]

If we had a union, we would be in talks for years to get what the E-190 guys got for a raise. Better yet, how many airlines are giving raises at this time-- ah lets count them, ZERO!!! A unionized airline would have furloughed about 100 pilots this past September/October with the reduction in flight hours. No union thus far has retained anything as far as pay, benefits, pensions, or work rules for many of your so called "Legacy" carriers-- thanks, I'd rather keep my 2-3 percent than give it to those weak "live to fight another day" folks who are supposedly defending our way of life, RIGHT!!! They've done nothing but collapse to company demands time and time again...

I got mine, who cares about those junior pukes?
And yes, I do understand not all Bus Captains think that way.

 

[instructordude]

Have the JB pilots thought about informational picketing at JFK? This can be an effective tool, giving the public knowledge about the current situation.

 

[AA717driver]

I will say that when the 190's were first ordered I said (here and to anyone who would listen) that they'd better go to seat pay or you'd get the haves v. the have-nots.

It may not be exactly what I predicted but it's sure as he!! not smooth sailing between JB and its pilots. TC

P.S.--BTW, when I suggested this would be trouble, I got blasted here.

 

[furloughed dude]

Bluedude,

I think you are right on the mark.

spectre,

D $ D lost my respect/trust when they sent us the new agreement from DHL. These guys need your trust there. They offer promises for the future (what does Dave B. say, hit one out of the ballpark?) so that you will take crappy pay and work rules. Everyone thought we were going to get a raise in 2003, where is it? How about health care costs rising? A crappy PTO system? Seat progression was the way to make a living, but even that has slowed dramatically. I know a lot of guys that have bailed from Jetblue (almost unheard of when I bailed) and the rest of the new guys have apps open with SWA, FDX, and UPS.

The pilots need a common voice at Jetblue and a real negotiated contract, not one that can be changed and sent to you by DHL. Unions didn't kill the legacies, 9/11, recession, SARS, low fare airlines/lower paid companies (like Jetblue), internet pricing, and high fuel prices all contributed. It was a great time to gut contracts and end pensions.

I never had blind allegience to D $ D like a lot of guys had. I don't think they are bad people, but are businessmen that want to make a lot of money. These are the kind of people that you want in charge, but don't confuse them as your buddies... If you want to have absolutely no say in your pay, cost of benefits and work rules, then you are in the right place...

As Al Spain used to say, "Are you smoking some of that funny stuff?"

Union pilots that got raises recently: FDX and UPS.

 

[spinproof]

Yeah, I'm sure swapa and apa are loosing sleep everynight since alpa is not on their properties.

SWA pilots dont seem to need representation. They have a management team that has things humming and is willing to pay for peace. But remember when you're at the top of the pile you make a better target!

In the long run like 'em or not bigger unions have bigger war chest. With 66,000 chipping in 2% they should be!

 

[F18-FDX]

Have the JB pilots thought about informational picketing at JFK? This can be an effective tool, giving the public knowledge about the current situation.

Yes, a very effective tool, however without a union and CBA guys will find themselves getting fired for a "uniform viloation" or some other bogus management excuse with no recourse or legal representation to fight back.

As for the guys (or just that one uninformed guy) whining about dues, I just got mine plus a $hitload more back in the recent contract my union negotiated for me...happy to pay my share. And oh, by the way my healthcare costs didn't go up either because my negotiating committe knew that even a massive pay raise could be wiped out overnight by shell games in other areas....the list could go on. My point? I personnally feel a united group is much more powerful than the sum of its indiviual parts.

Who knows, in the future maybe a united pilot group will be able to negotiate appropriate pay, and an appropriate layover for a transcon instead of management wanting to waiver the 8 in 24. Novel concept, huh?

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

I got mine, who cares about those junior pukes?
And yes, I do understand not all Bus Captains think that way.

When September and October came around, the entire pilot group got hit with less flying hours; my schedule was only 73 hours in September and 76 in October. So in one month, a junior Captain sitting on reserve got more money than I did. A legacy carrier with a union would have furloughed so that the senior guys would "hold the line" and get their minimum guaranteed hours. It's not a battle of haves and have-nots. We forget sometimes that we're all on the same team. I'm glad the 190 guys got a raise, they deserved it. Would it have been nice if our side of the house got one too. Yes. But in the middle of Return to Profitability (without wage cuts mind you), if it takes a little patience from our pilots who were hired for their outstanding credentials and potential (unless they smoked and mirrored their way in), then let there be some patience, some calm, to this process. David and Dave spoke today in LGB. They admit to the fact that maybe the PCG was a mistake during RTP. But they addressed the low pay scale on the 190 and are looking into the future package for the 320. You have to trust them. If they didn't trust you guys, they could have easily quit and left for something else with their success story. And, yes, it is a success story. Many of you weren't around post 9/11 at this airline. I remember flying with 8 passengers on board. The airline was a mere year and a half old. We were staring at failure of another upstart airline. But we pulled through it, and we did it with the leadership of David and Dave. That's the fact, and many of you also weren't around when A-320 captains made $78/hour and F/Os $43 either. When did our raise come, retroactively? A couple of months after 9/11... right at the time the other airlines started furloughing in droves...

 

[clickclickboom]

When September and October came around, the entire pilot group got hit with less flying hours; my schedule was only 73 hours in September and 76 in October. So in one month, a junior Captain sitting on reserve got more money than I did. A legacy carrier with a union would have furloughed so that the senior guys would "hold the line" and get their minimum guaranteed hours. It's not a battle of haves and have-nots. We forget sometimes that we're all on the same team. I'm glad the 190 guys got a raise, they deserved it. Would it have been nice if our side of the house got one too. Yes. But in the middle of Return to Profitability (without wage cuts mind you), if it takes a little patience from our pilots who were hired for their outstanding credentials and potential (unless they smoked and mirrored their way in), then let there be some patience, some calm, to this process. David and Dave spoke today in LGB. They admit to the fact that maybe the PCG was a mistake during RTP. But they addressed the low pay scale on the 190 and are looking into the future package for the 320. You have to trust them. If they didn't trust you guys, they could have easily quit and left for something else with their success story. And, yes, it is a success story. Many of you weren't around post 9/11 at this airline. I remember flying with 8 passengers on board. The airline was a mere year and a half old. We were staring at failure of another upstart airline. But we pulled through it, and we did it with the leadership of David and Dave. That's the fact, and many of you also weren't around when A-320 captains made $78/hour and F/Os $43 either. When did our raise come, retroactively? A couple of months after 9/11... right at the time the other airlines started furloughing in droves...

It is so easy to get emotional when it comes to ones career. Most importantly our pilots have to make sure that they dont step over $100 bills to pick up pennies.. We have good management and an awesome employee group. We need to remember that JB is a young company that is not immune to making mistakes. If some are so negative that they feel a need to post about a union drive on flight info or rant like Blue Dude then I highly suggest you go find a new job..This is not the perfect company but it sure is a good one with better times to come. I am willing to wait out a raise and work towards an IN HOUSE PILOT GROUP NOT ALPA or some other crackpot scam. Personally I want longevity and stability.. Dropping a 10% raise in the middle of RTP would be completely irresponsible. Wake up guys and use your head befort your spout out and make yourself look stupid ( hint hint blue dude...)

 

[Fins Up]

It is so easy to get emotional when it comes to ones career. Most importantly our pilots have to make sure that they dont step over $100 bills to pick up pennies.. We have good management and an awesome employee group. We need to remember that JB is a young company that is not immune to making mistakes. If some are so negative that they feel a need to post about a union drive on flight info or rant like Blue Dude then I highly suggest you go find a new job..This is not the perfect company but it sure is a good one with better times to come. I am willing to wait out a raise and work towards an IN HOUSE PILOT GROUP NOT ALPA or some other crackpot scam. Personally I want longevity and stability.. Dropping a 10% raise in the middle of RTP would be completely irresponsible. Wake up guys and use your head befort your spout out and make yourself look stupid ( hint hint blue dude...)

I like this post because I also think the fact that we are still a very young airline needs to be considered. I'm sure it's been addressed before but I am curious about the payscales of a lot of the other LCCs, including SWA, when they were six years old.

I'm not letting D&D completely off the hook though. At a minimum it would have been nice to hear something like, "While we aren't give the 320 pilots a raise right now, we are going to address it again in ... one year...whatever." Maybe I missed that. I would LOVE to make this whole pilot/management relationship work without a union. That hope is part of the reason I am here. I realize that just may not happen.