Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[BigMotorToter]

Jetblue Pilots begin organization drive...

Well it certainly is no secret over on the Jetblue pilots message board, so I thought I would post it here. After today's cornholing of the pilots, the union drive is now in full swing.

First meeting with the ALPA recruiter's is in early 2007, with two more meetings scheduled later. Hopefully, a vote by summer and a union of some sort on the property by the end of the year.

There has been a rising voice for a union for the last couple of years, but after today, if you could say anything good at all, it's that this pilot group is finally, mostly unified on this matter.

 

[Charlie Brown]

Why ALPA? I thought an in-house would be preferred by most of the pilot group over there?

 

[Headfake14]

Well it certainly is no secret over on the Jetblue pilots message board, so I thought I would post it here. After today's cornholing of the pilots, the union drive is now in full swing.

...so...what happened???

 

[spinproof]

I would think the better choice would be to go with a representative group that has resources. ALPA, IBT would be your best bets. In house unions have "No" resources in which to fight the coming battles!

Better the "devil" you know(ALPA, IBT) than the one you don't!

Good Luck and get moving!

 

[lowecur]

Well it certainly is no secret over on the Jetblue pilots message board, so I thought I would post it here. After today's cornholing of the pilots, the union drive is now in full swing.

More posturing cuz the 320 guys didn't get a raise and the 190 guys did. It's all about the jealous sibling rivalry created where mgt is trying to bring the 190 guys up to speed from an initial weak contract. Obviously the 190 is doing better than mgt expected.

Just another chapter in the dysfunctional relationship between pilots and mgt. One thing I've seen on these message boards is that pilots will always find some excuse to slam mgt. If it isn't the usual complaint of overpaid mgt taking stock options and unearned bonus', it's just the typical power struggle of who's going to show who.

One thing the two Dave's will learn over the coming years is you can't please everyone, and you will never keep unions out of the airline business. They are trying to get Jetblue into the double digit profit margins again so they can get some much needed cash in the bank. They should get the extra cash they need in 2007 if everything pans out, but the 320 pilots aren't going to wait. Patience has never been a virtue of any pilot group, and now with more and more legacy new hires, that same stick it to mgt attitude has taken over.

It's not the end of the world, as even a great mgt team like SWA couldn't keep the unions at bay. It's just the innate nature of the beast.

imp:​

 

[Uniform Shop]

Obviously the 190 is doing better than mgt expected

Or maybe they have pilots leaving left and right to go to the other airlines so they raised the pay on the 190 to try and make the 190 look a little more attractive? I guess it backfired.

 

[elag777]

Well it certainly is no secret over on the Jetblue pilots message board, so I thought I would post it here. After today's cornholing of the pilots, the union drive is now in full swing.

Using the JetBlue pilot message board is like using the San Francisco chronicle for a fair shake on the War in Iraq.:erm:

 

[Fins Up]

More posturing cuz the 320 guys didn't get a raise and the 190 guys did. It's all about the jealous sibling rivalry created where mgt is trying to bring the 190 guys up to speed from an initial weak contract. Obviously the 190 is doing better than mgt expected.

You don't have near all the facts and I'm not going to be the one to spill them all over this board.

 

[AA717driver]

Lowcur--Your post is an oversimplification. This was destined to happen. When you offer low pay initially (first five years) counterbalanced by rapid upgrades you'd better hope the upgrades keep coming.

Had I accepted an interview there in Nov. 04 and gotten hired (going to class in May '05) my acceptance of the job offer would have been predicated on sucking it up for a couple of years prior to upgrading on the 320.

Now, that's slowing down and some people are stuck in the 190 at really low pay longer than they thought. Of course nothing is guaranteed in this business but that doesn't make the low pay any easier to swallow.

JB had a limited amount of money to kick in to bump up wages. They couldn't give both aircraft a raise. The 190 was in the worst shape. (For JB to lose newhires to another company was probably a big shock.) The 320 will get a bump but only after the profit comes back.

There will still be the problem of altered career expectations. TC

 

[GuppyPuppy]

More posturing cuz the 320 guys didn't get a raise and the 190 guys did. It's all about the jealous sibling rivalry created where mgt is trying to bring the 190 guys up to speed from an initial weak contract. Obviously the 190 is doing better than mgt expected.

Just another chapter in the dysfunctional relationship between pilots and mgt. One thing I've seen on these message boards is that pilots will always find some excuse to slam mgt. If it isn't the usual complaint of overpaid mgt taking stock options and unearned bonus', it's just the typical power struggle of who's going to show who.

One thing the two Dave's will learn over the coming years is you can't please everyone, and you will never keep unions out of the airline business. They are trying to get Jetblue into the double digit profit margins again so they can get some much needed cash in the bank. They should get the extra cash they need in 2007 if everything pans out, but the 320 pilots aren't going to wait. Patience has never been a virtue of any pilot group, and now with more and more legacy new hires, that same stick it to mgt attitude has taken over.

It's not the end of the world, as even a great mgt team like SWA couldn't keep the unions at bay. It's just the innate nature of the beast.

imp:​

Pardon me, but WTF do you know about what is going on over there. You think it is just the A320 pilots? I'd say a higher percentage of E190 pilots are pi$$ed off (just about all of them).

You are absolutely wrong that there is a rivalry between the pilots of the two different aircraft. Yesterday's announcement was a slap in the face to ALL JB pilots, not just the A320 pilots.

Had management done "the right thing" (as they like to tout) I truly believe that they could have kept a union off the property. Now, it is inevitable.

In response to your comment that you will never keep unions out of the airline business (referring to JB), what about Delta? The ONLY unionized work group over there is their pilots. And what about SkyWest? They are now a MAJOR airline and have managed to keep a union off the property for some 35 years.

JB management could have kept a pilots union off the property if they wanted to. What they announced yesterday was, "Go ahead. Unionize."

This pilot group was never out to "stick it to management", as you put it. This group just wants a fair wage and decent benefits. We are not out to choke the proverbial goose as Rick Dubinsky was at United.

Lowecur, you have no idea what you are talking about.

GP

 

[lowecur]

Or maybe they have pilots leaving left and right to go to the other airlines so they raised the pay on the 190 to try and make the 190 look a little more attractive? I guess it backfired.

Yeah, that's probably true. They should stick to hiring regional guys instead of the more experienced legacy furloughees. I would think the contract has a high bailout penalty written in, but maybe not.

So I guess what they should have done is offset the slowdown in deliveries to save the company money by increasing the pay for the whole pilot group. Is that it in a nutshell?....I think so. The best thing Jetblue could do is take the company private. That way decisions are not made to increase stockholder value. Oh, I forgot....what would happen to all those stock options?

imp:​

 

[Cobra]

Using the JetBlue pilot message board is like using the San Francisco chronicle for a fair shake on the War in Iraq.:erm:

It's likely you don't have a clue what the "fair shake" in Iraq is.

 

[Longhorn]

Lowecure,

Usually I agree with you but I got to tell you on this one you are wrong. Its not about the 320 guys. Its about mgnt telling us they would adjust the rates and do the right thing after the plane had been on property. They did adjust it...basicly 5 bucks on the CA side. As for the E190 fo's, yes, they did get a good bump and the pay came much closer to what it should be but for the rest of the rates, it was a slap in the face. As for the 320 guys, the least they could have done was give them a cola increase...but no, nothing. The health cost here are skyrocketing as well and they refuse to do anything about it because we cant have a seperate health care plan. During the road shows, many questions came about about "do you have the info on this or that?" and the answer was um....um...we dont have that. Its about putting our faith in the PCG only to find out that they did not represent us at all. they undercut the recommendations and had no communication with us about it. When asking one of them in person you got the cold shoulder...from our own. So, I think these reasons are just the tip of the iceberg. Like I said, had nothing to do with the 320 guys not getting anything, that was just part of it. The wonderful communication that we have has slowly erroded and it has become very obvious...to the point that even D Barger pointed it out yesterday. He satated that they need to do a better job communicating with us. I am tried to have faith as long as possible and still think they have it in them to make the proper changes that need to be made, but yesterday was a HUGE step in the wrong direction. They basicly invited ALPA on the property yesterday.

And lastly, I was a regional guy. I flew the 320 for 2 years and now the 190. I can tell you that it does not matter if you are regional, major, cargo, mil....everyone is pissed, especially the 190 guys.

 

[spinproof]

More posturing cuz the 320 guys didn't get a raise and the 190 guys did. It's all about the jealous sibling rivalry created where mgt is trying to bring the 190 guys up to speed from an initial weak contract. Obviously the 190 is doing better than mgt expected.

Just another chapter in the dysfunctional relationship between pilots and mgt. One thing I've seen on these message boards is that pilots will always find some excuse to slam mgt. If it isn't the usual complaint of overpaid mgt taking stock options and unearned bonus', it's just the typical power struggle of who's going to show who.

One thing the two Dave's will learn over the coming years is you can't please everyone, and you will never keep unions out of the airline business. They are trying to get Jetblue into the double digit profit margins again so they can get some much needed cash in the bank. They should get the extra cash they need in 2007 if everything pans out, but the 320 pilots aren't going to wait. Patience has never been a virtue of any pilot group, and now with more and more legacy new hires, that same stick it to mgt attitude has taken over.

It's not the end of the world, as even a great mgt team like SWA couldn't keep the unions at bay. It's just the innate nature of the beast.

imp:​

I know you posted this to get a "flame" thread going so I'll bite! Which I hasten to add you don't have a clue as to what is required to become either a pilot or management. Let me help you out.

Its' a pilots job to move people or things above the earths surface at speed 3 to 10 times that which you drive your personal transportation vehicle. All the while monitoring several instruments, the weather, traffic and radio communications that would loose you in two seconds! He has spent countless hours doing so at a price that would rival your local grocery boys earnings, but still he presses on! He does this over and over again without any accidents, incidents or personal failures. He has no second chances!

You and management, on the other hand, may screw up at leisure. Changing your mind how things must run at a whim with little more than a willing BOD to coddle! Having the gift of forgiveness and hindsight as a refuge in times of your petty distress.Mearly uttering "my bad" when things go wrong.

Now the day may come when you're at 8,000 inbound and you're being tossed a bit and your destination is CATII (or shudder) III.......think the person at the helm needs to be compensated more than mid-level management punk you seem to compare!!!
...well do ya?????

Funny how you expect someone to be "on the wall" but never willing to accept they deserve to be compensated justly.

 

[elag777]

It's likely you don't have a clue what the "fair shake" in Iraq is.

Not worth explaining as you appear to have missed the point. You know neither who I am or who I know, so your accusation is without merit. I did not expect anthing more from this board however. Pick up the SFC and see just how supportive they are of our fine Military.

 

[lowecur]

They basicly invited ALPA on the property yesterday. So get it over with already. If it wasn't this terrible injustice now, it would be the fact that the pilot lounge has gotten too shabby in the next year or the vending machines have gone up a quarter.

And lastly, I was a regional guy. I flew the 320 for 2 years and now the 190. I can tell you that it does not matter if you are regional, major, cargo, mil....everyone is pissed, especially the 190 guys.

Do you think mgt made a mistake by growing too fast? I think they are just beginning to see the effects of having too much on their plate in an industry that as been changing colors by the minute. Will the pilot group give them time to digest what's happening? No way, the ball has dropped at Times Square and Dick Clark is already talking to private equity.

imp:​

 

[J32driver]

They should stick to hiring regional guys instead of the more experienced legacy furloughees.

I told you this a couple years ago, I'm going to say it again. You have no concept of management/labor relations. Speaking about something you don't understand only reveals how little you really know.

When the Furloughees were hired, JetBlue said you are going to like it here so much you will never go back. I guess they were wrong.

If you think a regional guy is trapped at JetBlue and stands a more likely chance of staying, I guess you failed to notice alot of other places are hiring.

 

[radarlove]

Dick Clark is already talking to private equity.

Interesting if true. Source?

 

[Lear70]

Lowecur, you usually have pretty decent financial understandings of this industry, but lack industry experience to put events into perspective.

Blue had no choice but to expand quickly, otherwise they would have been stuck in the same boat that Midwest is in: great product, no national name brand recognition.

Now they have better brand recognition than airTran which has been around a lot longer, they have a great product, fuel prices have stabilized and will either stay the same or go down slightly (in case you haven't been watching oil lately which you probably have and already know). With increasing yields they are poised to make a good profit this year and an excellent profit next year.

So no, I don't blame the 'Blue pilots for wanting to enter the new year on decent financial ground.

It's WRONG that the 320 guys haven't received a COLA raise in years (longevity only).

It's WRONG that the E190 pay scale on the CA side tops out around the same range as a 717 F/O at AAI and airTran's pay scale is 6 years old. Almost identical seating,,,?

About the only people who benefit here are the 190 F/O's, and I do believe that it was done ONLY to try to stem the bleeding that's about to take place. Those F/O's mostly came from other regionals where they were CA's and Check Airmen, have LOTS of experience, and will be PERFECT candidates when DAL and NWA start hiring this year (If you'd go to NWA, but that's another subject), not to mention CAL, SWA, FDX, and UPS already hiring.

These smaller LCC's just don't get it about compensating their pilot groups fairly or they'll leave to someone who will. Do you have ANY idea how much money that is? Multiplied by HOW many pilots will leave? Mostly junior guys so it doesn't help reduce upper-level compensation.

Incidentally, I agree that ALPA or IBT would probably be the best way to go for you guys. No SCOPE issues and a large war chest. I wouldn't want ALPA here, but that's simply because we are already established in-house with financial reserves to back it.

You guys are in for a long road. Good luck to ya'!

 

[Andy]

Good luck JBLU pilots, no matter which course of action you choose.

 

[flying bubba]

Here's some outside the box thinking for you.....

What if Jb really wants 300-400 people to return to their former airlines?

They have slowed growth. The pilots that would be leaving are the vocal ones about a union. They are farther up the seniority list, so they make a higher wage. They brought in their experience, many of them airbus guys, and allowed the company to expand rapidly.

Now, the company doesnt quite need to expand so fast, so fo's with little or no airbus time will have longer times in the right seat to gain that. The guys that upgrade to replace the ones that left will be at a lower payscale and probably happy to upgrade now sooner than later.
Most of the union talk will leave with the same individuals that obviously didnt want to be there anyways.

The cost of training new fo's is less than what the pilots were hoping to receive so maybe that was a factor as well.

Just some thoughts.....

 

[TWA Dude]

To further pile onto Lowcur's lack of understanding of the industry:

There's a reason why every major airline (except JB) and just about every regional/small jet carrier has unionized pilot groups -- it's needed to defend against management abuse. And considering that the majority of pilots tend to be Republicans that says a lot.

 

[Skank]

I think what we need to organize first is our thoughts. Lets clear the spittle of our chins from all the ranting (and you were wondering why everyone within hearing distance was covering their face), and calm down a little. Nobody ever got anywhere by ranting, except on this message board....

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

If we had a union, we would be in talks for years to get what the E-190 guys got for a raise. Better yet, how many airlines are giving raises at this time-- ah lets count them, ZERO!!! A unionized airline would have furloughed about 100 pilots this past September/October with the reduction in flight hours. No union thus far has retained anything as far as pay, benefits, pensions, or work rules for many of your so called "Legacy" carriers-- thanks, I'd rather keep my 2-3 percent than give it to those weak "live to fight another day" folks who are supposedly defending our way of life, RIGHT!!! They've done nothing but collapse to company demands time and time again...

 

[On Your Six]

If we had a union, we would be in talks for years to get what the E-190 guys got for a raise. Better yet, how many airlines are giving raises at this time-- ah lets count them, ZERO!!! A unionized airline would have furloughed about 100 pilots this past September/October with the reduction in flight hours. No union thus far has retained anything as far as pay, benefits, pensions, or work rules for many of your so called "Legacy" carriers-- thanks, I'd rather keep my 2-3 percent than give it to those weak "live to fight another day" folks who are supposedly defending our way of life, RIGHT!!! They've done nothing but collapse to company demands time and time again...

Does JetBlue care about attracting "quality" pilots going forward? If so, actions need to speak louder than words... I know of two current JetBlue pilots who are seriously considering returning to Netjets - as FOs on Citations.

In the meantime, the "quality" pilots will be looking at SWA, UPS, Fedex and some of the legacies that have or will restart their hiring soon instead of JetBlue. Is that something JetBlue wants or will be proud of going forward? Doubt it. It's all about SIGNAL VALUE and messaging to the pilot community...

 

[GuppyPuppy]

If we had a union, we would be in talks for years to get what the E-190 guys got for a raise. Better yet, how many airlines are giving raises at this time-- ah lets count them, ZERO!!! A unionized airline would have furloughed about 100 pilots this past September/October with the reduction in flight hours. No union thus far has retained anything as far as pay, benefits, pensions, or work rules for many of your so called "Legacy" carriers-- thanks, I'd rather keep my 2-3 percent than give it to those weak "live to fight another day" folks who are supposedly defending our way of life, RIGHT!!! They've done nothing but collapse to company demands time and time again...

Let me guess...you're an A320 captain who is not on reserve.

GP

 

[murano]

If we had a union, we would be in talks for years to get what the E-190 guys got for a raise. Better yet, how many airlines are giving raises at this time-- ah lets count them, ZERO!!! A unionized airline would have furloughed about 100 pilots this past September/October with the reduction in flight hours. No union thus far has retained anything as far as pay, benefits, pensions, or work rules for many of your so called "Legacy" carriers-- thanks, I'd rather keep my 2-3 percent than give it to those weak "live to fight another day" folks who are supposedly defending our way of life, RIGHT!!! They've done nothing but collapse to company demands time and time again...

Keep sucking that kool-aid bud! Everything's going be just fine for ya

 

[Blue Dude]

If we had a union, we would be in talks for years to get what the E-190 guys got for a raise. Better yet, how many airlines are giving raises at this time-- ah lets count them, ZERO!!! A unionized airline would have furloughed about 100 pilots this past September/October with the reduction in flight hours. No union thus far has retained anything as far as pay, benefits, pensions, or work rules for many of your so called "Legacy" carriers-- thanks, I'd rather keep my 2-3 percent than give it to those weak "live to fight another day" folks who are supposedly defending our way of life, RIGHT!!! They've done nothing but collapse to company demands time and time again...

Speak for yourself. You sure don't speak for me, and I'm probably senior to you. All I know is that I've gotten a continuous 15% pay cut over the last five years, we're far past the startup stage, and we have no voice at all as to the content of our own contracts. We have just been kicked in the balls and you want to take a wait and see attitude? What would it take for you to take matters into your own hands? It's already been shown that management CANNOT be relied upon to "do the right thing" with regards to pilot pay. It would not have taken much, even a COLA increase would have been something. Instead we got zip and a shell game changing our benefits around. Wake up!

BTW, your rant vs. Legacy unions is apples and oranges. There was a great deal of fat in those contracts and the industry was in crisis. We on the other hand are the most productive and least paid pilots in the industry. These is no fat to trim and we're due for just a little consideration for the effort, not to mention some mechanism for at least some input to the process. Right now we have squat and it's been shown in convincing fashion that that's no longer an adequate situation.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

Yeah, what he said!!! Company biotch

 

[lowecur]

If we had a union, we would be in talks for years to get what the E-190 guys got for a raise. Better yet, how many airlines are giving raises at this time-- ah lets count them, ZERO!!! A unionized airline would have furloughed about 100 pilots this past September/October with the reduction in flight hours. No union thus far has retained anything as far as pay, benefits, pensions, or work rules for many of your so called "Legacy" carriers-- thanks, I'd rather keep my 2-3 percent than give it to those weak "live to fight another day" folks who are supposedly defending our way of life, RIGHT!!! They've done nothing but collapse to company demands time and time again...

There will probably be a vote to bring ALPA in, but I doubt anyone really believes they will do anything but fracture whatever relationship is left, and give you 2 cents on your dollar investment. My guess is mgt will have a road show to try and head off the inevitable, but I think an in house will eventually emerge. Some questions to ponder:

• Has Jetblue Mgt done a good job the last few years? No, they have anticipated poorly, and failed to recognize problems before they emerged. Neeleman believed they were immune to high fuel prices. He got bad advice.
• Are they on the right track now? They seem to be, but we won't really know until about the middle of 2007.
• Have they put their own compensation ahead of other employee groups? No.
• If the pilot group deserves a raise, what percentage are we talking about and what will it cost the company of the projected $150M profit next year?
• Is a private equity takeover a good thing? Yes, I think it is. It allows mgt to spend their time managing instead of doing whatever it takes to get the stock price moving. It's been suggested that mgt spends 60% of their time coddling the investors with public promotion and doing all the paperwork involved to keep the SEC happy. As a caveat, I have no knowledge of any possible buyout...it's all speculation on my part.

imp:​