Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[AAflyer]

The pilot groups at all airlines will always have an adversarial relationship with mgt. SWAPA likes to claim that they have a smooth relationship with mgt (and they do comparitively speaking), but even they are not immune to putting themselves above the company. We havent' seen their other side yet if the company ever sinks into the red. My guess is they will turn on mgt very quickly and believe me they will offer no help until the cash is drained off. I have no faith that the airline business will ever make money like other business'. Too many ego's that think they are the straw that stirs the drink. That little piece by the Allegiant pilot was refreshing. You can see that a relationship can prosper when things are small enough where you don't have the hassles of flying to airports where you're not sitting on the taxiway for 45 minutes to take off from your main hub. Used to be that way at JFK....no more.

imp:​

Jaded? You ASSUMED because I have been through six airlines I am jaded? Hardly, all things considered I am doing pretty well.

Well, I will admit you have some financial understanding of the airline industry, however so do I, in fact so do many people. Some companies actually pay these people lots of money to through around words like CASMS, RASMS, RPMS and "labot costs". I can do the same thing as they do as I have seen you do.

Where you and many other analysts lack understanding is on the operational side of the equation. You can never comprehend what we do and why we have been rewarded so richly in the past. You ASSUME by participating on a message board, or looking up front in the cockpit while you board one of our jetliners you "think" you grasp what it is we do.

Until you have walked on this side of the airport your arguments are very weak, very one-sided, and extremely pro management anti-pilot. I am guessing it is a mater of "pilot" envy. You never attained what many of us have and deep down that troubles you. May I recommend seeking counsel from Doctor Phil.


AAflyer

P.S. Thanks for participating, you do bring a little amusement to this board.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The pilot groups at all airlines will always have an adversarial relationship with mgt.

Why do you suppose that is? Not to get too preachy here, but perhaps the landscape in corporate America is too much of a level playing field. You know...like the Serengheti. The lions have an advantage based on their position in the food chain. The zebras survive only when they stick together...and even then there are losses.

SWAPA likes to claim that they have a smooth relationship with mgt (and they do comparitively speaking), but even they are not immune to putting themselves above the company.

Important Distinction: The pilots ARE THE COMPANY! The employees of an airline are the company. Management is just one element of the whole. Airplanes don't get passengers from LGA to ORD...the employees do! It takes a team effort, with all elements functioning properly. The people responsible for keeping that team working properly are the managers. They are supposed to lead the team. For this, they receive more compensation. That's cool.

The problem starts then managers manage instead of lead. They do this to get better results for their section, department, or company. "Results" in this case are indicators that make them look like successful managers, not necessarily good leaders. Things like "good morale" are hard to put on a resume, hence they don't increase your value (spelled M-O-N-E-Y) to others who might hire you.

Which brings me back to my point that managers ain't the company. I was here long before my CEO was...and I'll be here long after he's cashed out, moved on, and started pi$$ing on someone else's morale.

I expect CEO's to make more than pilots, for the same reason I expect pilots to make more than flight attendants. What I don't expect is for their compensation to be based on, often...nothing. Put up good numbers: get millions. Put up bad numbers: still get millions. Crush morale to get good/bad numbers: ___________ (guess what goes here!).

We havent' seen their other side yet if the company ever sinks into the red. My guess is they will turn on mgt very quickly and believe me they will offer no help until the cash is drained off.

It's not too difficult to predict how both management and employees will react to a change in profit.

I have no faith that the airline business will ever make money like other business'.

Probably because it's a different kind of business, huh? It sells a perishable commodity that costs money to NOT sell. It's more capital-intensive than any other commercial enterprise with the possible exception of the nuclear power industry. It's arguably the most regulated commercial operation in the US.

Too many ego's that think they are the straw that stirs the drink.

The airlines haven't cornered the market on that concept, but we seem to have more than our fair share of those types.

That little piece by the Allegiant pilot was refreshing. You can see that a relationship can prosper when things are small enough where you don't have the hassles of flying to airports where you're not sitting on the taxiway for 45 minutes to take off from your main hub. Used to be that way at JFK....no more.

It's easier to lead a small group than a large group. (note the verb)

 

[Lear70]

Sounds like you are already. Now go kick the dog and open a bag of cheese doodles to make yourself feel better.

LOL - nah, I'm not mad... and I NEVER kick the dog, he's my buddy. The cat's another story.

I AM, however, glad I didn't take the Blue Dart my buddy offered early this year (probably would have if I hadn't already been on Sim 5 here), and I feel for all my JB friends over there who really bought into the "one big happy family" line. Money is money, and D&D proved that to be a complete farce and, like Albie said, that's really, really sad to see.

So if wanting to AT LEAST be able to afford my SAME house payment and my SAME car along with buying diapers and other stuff previously mentioned as the years go by makes me a confirmed "legacy carrier syndrome" victim, then yup, I'm guilty.

I FULLY expect my salary to go up as the cost of living goes up (you know that whole CPI and inflation thing). I don't think that's being greedy, I think that's called "providing for my family WITHOUT being greedy."

Somehow I think you're in the minority on this thought that pilots who are working for an airline which is NOT losing money should take a pay cut every year.

I'm like a dradle.

That's pretty funny... LOL, yes you are.

Excuse me but it is your job to help keep the company viable.

No, it's not. MY job is to come to work every day, rested and ready to fly, then fly the airplane to 100% of my ability, staying current on policies, procedures, and getting back in the books enough to handle the emergencies as I was taught. Period.

My job is NOT to take financial penalties to help management manage the airline. If so, I'd be happy to do it, as long as the 6-figure salaries, stock options, and bonuses accompany such a job description.

If you were a line pilot you'd understand that.

 

[Hank Hill]

Hmmm... I'm a betting man, and I bet that a COLA raise of 10% for all the Airbus guys and a promise to revisit it next year if JBLU was profitable would have quieted the majority of the rest of the pilot group.

You're 100% right on this point. That's all it would have taken. I'm still in shock that management didn't figure this out. What was the whole point of the PCG if they coudln't have come to this same conclusion and made the case for it to management?

 

[doh]

It's likely you don't have a clue what the "fair shake" in Iraq is.

Cobra, you missed his point. You can't get a picture of Iraq from the SFC because they are so biased in their opinion that they are unable to write a complete story. The same can be said about the JB message board. He is not making a statmement about the war, just about how bias distorts accuracy. Please, lighten up Francis!

 

[AlbieF15]

Flyboi,

My metaphor may have been a bit crude, but I was trying to convey to the pilot group that we are on your side, and we've seen similar pain elsewhere.

I have always believed in Jetblue's leadership. I "almost" passed on FedEx in early 2002 to go there, but realized that FedEx was just too good of a fit for my family to risk what "might be..." at Jetblue. I talked with guys on the line there that are all very senior now--I would have been +/- about #275 had I gone there. I probably pestered 10 of those top 200 guys for their insights and inputs as I weighed my options. I liked every single person I met at Jetblue--line pilots, flight attendents, HR folks...and mangement. Adding to the atmosphere was the pay raise approved in the Fall of 01 AFTER 9/11. It was a very special kind of company.

Since then, I have made a lot of money helping folks get ready for interviews there. My loyalty, therefore, it to THOSE clients and not necessarily to Jetblue mangement. Doesn't mean I have to pull against them--rather--I hope and continue to hope they find a way to work together and protect what was (until recently) a very unique culture in a very jaded industry.

Recently I've helped several of my former JB clients prepare for interviews at other places--they are leaving JB. I've also had several guys pass on taking classes after they were hired--going to fractionals instead. The trust and atmosphere I saw back in 2001 is gone--its a different company. It certainly doesn't mean JB is done--or this cannot be worked out.

I think I would have been happy in 2001 at a non-union carrier. I joined FPA and later ALPA because I knew at MY company that was ALSO the right thing to do. What I've seen so far has been good--at least at my company. I hope whatever angle the JB pilots take, they get a solid COLA raise, healthcare coverage, and a vote on work rule/FAR limitations.

I don't any of that makes bad sense for them or the company...

And...as a businessman...my Jetblue business dropped off quite a bit this year. Why? I don't think some of the clients thought $350-375 was worth spending on a "temporary" or "gap filler" job. Although I still get some folks who want to work long term there, many are now going there planning only to stay until they get the call from CAL, SWA, UPS, or FedEx. Trust me--getting JB back to a desired "career" status airline won't just help the guys and girls there...it would be good for my business too.

Sorry if my "slut" metaphor got under your skin. I think my record with the folks at Jetblue speaks for me about how I feel about the JB guys on the line.

 

[A350]

Albie:

Glad to hear you have it so good.....all that pay for no work......

As you put it, however, working for FedEx and a low cost carrier are apples and oranges......

The way the passenger carriers work, they will never, ever see the pay and bennies you have now, union, or not.

A350

 

[thebest]

ALPA= The race to the bottom! Here we go............................

 

[Flyboi]

Sorry if my "slut" metaphor got under your skin. I think my record with the folks at Jetblue speaks for me about how I feel about the JB guys on the line.

No dog here, so I certainly don't care enough to allow that "under my skin". I just found it interesting someone who made a good coin off of candidates (ala Kit Darby) would refer to the golden egg as a bunch of "sluts" and doesn't even work there. Was the word "slut" included in any of those TMAT's?

 

[instructordude]

Sorry if my "slut" metaphor got under your skin. I think my record with the folks at Jetblue speaks for me about how I feel about the JB guys on the line.

Nothing wrong with that brother.