Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[mach none]

Ty:

When we merge, you don't have anything to worry about. You will be grandfathered in and they only do the nicotine screen for new hires anyway.

 

[HA25]

The answer to all this 'race to the bottom', fingerpointing and self-justification is unity. The best path towards unity is nationwide representation. You're either on the team, or your against the team. I'm not completely discounting in-house as a decent option, but very few do anything for the profession as a whole, or even help themselves out much either. You may think that it does, but not as much as it seems.

Just ask APA how well inhouse unions work when they went on strike and a Democrat shut them down and send them back to work!

If it were ALPA, I doubt Clinton would have done that. This is all about political power and the lobbying the congress/whitehouse. A small JB pilots union is going to be totally useless for a while. APA is the most effective in-house, and they're still second rate.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

The answer to all this 'race to the bottom', fingerpointing and self-justification is unity. The best path towards unity is nationwide representation. You're either on the team, or your against the team. I'm not completely discounting in-house as a decent option, but very few do anything for the profession as a whole, or even help themselves out much either. You may think that it does, but not as much as it seems.

Do you know why the Equal Rights Amendment didn't pass?

Women. Women are their own worst enemy.

Do you know why a national pilot's union won't pass?

Pilots. Do I need to spell out the rest?


Just venture a quick perusal of this board's constant infighting, sniping, putdowns, diatribes and overall lack of porn and you will discover the numerous reasons why God is punishing us with Global Warning.

 

[IronCityBlue]

doing the right thing

Originally Posted by lowecur/ironcityblue

Actually I was talking about Senior Wences.

Yeah there's always some junior/senior divergence of interets, but there are numerous examples of pilot groups who fought hard, at great personal sacrifice, to end B scales, get 60+% CA pay for FO's, provide medical insurance and stock to furloughed pilots that they didn't have to, etc. The senior will always benefit, that's the nature of being senior. It doesn't necessarilly mean there will be an ongoing civil war of junior/senior at every airline.

Let's keep it simple and figure it's going to cost Jetblue an average of $10,000 per pilot in 2007 for pay, benefits, and lost productivity with a change in work rules. That's $16 to 20M just for 2007.

OK assuming your math is correct, you're talking about 8 to 10% of next year's profits only. While significant, said profits wouldn't be there in the first place were it not for one of the most insanely productive, efficient, motivated, extra mile (blah blah blah, etc) rock bottom lowest pilot CASM groups of any sizeable airline. See below.

Yes you do, but unfortunately the other employees are not going to sit by without wanting their increased share of the pie. Hence, other unions will begin to appear on the property, and guess what????...the $16 to $20M turns into $40-$50M.

Yes they will sit by. Just like when the company gave 30%+ raises in 2001 (and not to the other groups) precisely because pilots were grossly underpaid, they can do the same thing now. Just tell everyone "we compared pilot pay and benefits to pilot pay and benefits accross the industry and even after this increase in their pay and benefits, they are still substantially lower than SWA, DAL, UAL, NWA, etc." If a gate agent still doesn't like it, or a Flight Attendant, we can compare their wages and benefits to comparable positions across the industry. I bet the pilots are much farther below our peers than most other work groups at the company. It is 100% unacceptable for our pay and benefits to be forever tied to lock step parallel percentage increases and identical benefits as other much lower skilled and in many cases entry level positions. That is a fact of life. You may be correct though, maybe other groups will try to organize to get their "piece of the pie" just because we did. Then I'd say we DEFINATELY need a union, to protect us from the Bolsheviks. But that issue can be mitigated in the first place if all the equality rhetoric was simply kept in context. Yes we're all equal in the eyes of God, we all deserve equal protections of the Constitution, we're all equally loved by our mothers, etc. But not all jobs are equal, nor should they pay equal, nor should the retirement system be the same. And that's just the way it is.

Me thinks their average net is around 11% over the last 30 yrs, but they have had some bumps lately.

OK, so 11% and declining, and they're still the 800lb. gorilla. We on the other hand, will vaporize instantly if our profit margin dips below 15%. Not buying it.

imp: ​

You people seem to forget that SWA has a ton of cash and Jetblue is in hock up to it's arz. I couldn't think of a worse time to start this little adversarial duet, but I don't think like most MECs that have an obsessive compulsive mindset of self destruction and instability. It will be interesting to see how this little drama plays out.

imp:​

Insisting on reasonable increases that still result in one of the lowest pilot CASMs among any immaginable peer(s) and would still put us at or below just about everyone else in terms of pay, benefits and retirement, while still leaving us among the most productive pilots in the industry is hardly what I would call an adversarial duet. What page of the Union Busting Handbook did you get that little gem from? Oh, and your high water mark of 10K per pilot equating to a max of 20M/year, in addition to being roughly 10% of the minimum (fuel crisis not withstanding) profits our leadership is almost guaranteing investors, is coinsidentally the exact amount (actually slightly LESS) that we saved the company in fuel this year alone. The company has an opportunity to do the right thing, and it won't come near breaking the bank. But if they don't, then you are right, the resulting duet may indeed become adversarial, and that would be a shame because it doesn't have to be that way.

 

[Falconjet]

You guys realize you are debating this with an insurance salesman, don't you?

FJ

 

[lowecur]

Quote:
OK, so 11% and declining, and they're still the 800lb. gorilla. We on the other hand, will vaporize instantly if our profit margin dips below 15%. Not buying it. I think I said 10-15%, didn't I? Stop embellishing!

They had 30 yrs to build up their cash reserves in an environment that was much different than today, and to my knowledge they never had an adversarial relationship with SWAPA (even though I'm predicting them thar days are over...too many former legacy zealots). Jetblue has a small window to get it right in the next few years, and their mgt has already proven that they are not infallable to making a wrong turn.


Jetblue has one of the lowest pilot CASMs among any immaginable peer(s) You can't use CASM as a marker when you are flying an average stage length of over 1000mi. and would still put us at or below just about everyone else in terms of pay, benefits and retirement, while still leaving us among the most productive pilots in the industry is hardly what I would call an adversarial duet. What page of the Union Busting Handbook did you get that little gem from? Page 6. Oh, and your high water mark of 10K per pilot equating to a max of 20M/year, in addition to being roughly 10% of the minimum (fuel crisis not withstanding) profits our leadership is almost guaranteing investors, is coinsidentally the exact amount (actually slightly LESS) that we saved the company in fuel this year alone. So what's wrong with everyone being productive? Did it change your QOL? The company has an opportunity to do the right thing, and it won't come near breaking the bank. You've already proven to me you're not a team player with your comments that the little guy will have to eat cake. But if they don't, then you are right, the resulting duet may indeed become adversarial, and that would be a shame because it doesn't have to be that way.[/quote]I personally would like to see an in-house union on the property, but beginning in 2008. Hopefully, they will take a Que from SWAPA's early leadership and partner to build the company's war chest so that they can remain viable during the next downturn. I must say that I am skeptical having read the comments from other participants that are itching for a fight. I still think private is the way to go for Jetblue as that will shut off the realtime flow of financial information to the employee groups (the catalyst of the current unrest).

imp:​

 

[lowecur]

You guys realize you are debating this with an insurance salesman, don't you?

FJ

That shows there is intelligent life on this planet, present company not included.

imp:​

 

[FNG_that's me]

Just ask APA how well inhouse unions work when they went on strike and a Democrat shut them down and send them back to work!

If it were ALPA, I doubt Clinton would have done that. This is all about political power and the lobbying the congress/whitehouse. A small JB pilots union is going to be totally useless for a while. APA is the most effective in-house, and they're still second rate.

We're in agreement. Go back and read my post...national union=1st choice. In-house=half-assed, but not completely useless...kind of like my ex-wife.

 

[FNG_that's me]

Do you know why the Equal Rights Amendment didn't pass?

Women. Women are their own worst enemy.

Do you know why a national pilot's union won't pass?

Pilots. Do I need to spell out the rest?


Just venture a quick perusal of this board's constant infighting, sniping, putdowns, diatribes and overall lack of porn and you will discover the numerous reasons why God is punishing us with Global Warning.

You mean the pilots that take jobs which don't promote the profession as a whole, are not members of this notional national union, and work for substandard wages with substandard work-rules and have sub-standard pensions?

Those pilots, yes they are the problem.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

You mean the pilots that take jobs which don't promote the profession as a whole, are not members of this notional national union, and work for substandard wages with substandard work-rules and have sub-standard pensions?

Those pilots, yes they are the problem.

Yep, that's me another pilot whore who needed a job to feed my wife and 2 kids. How selfish of me. And to think I left such a distinguished career in the Navy behind to whore myself out for such a lowly pittance.

Don't paint the jb pilot group with such a broad brush you moron. Notional national union? Is that like the notional EP-3 at airwing fallon?

 

[clickclickboom]

Fdx and Ups guys calm down I was merely making a point to the guy that was posting about how JB was solely responsible for the downturn of this industry as he pointed out. I was not trying to insult those of you making $211 and hour I was merely making a point about listed year one rates

 

[Lear70]

You guys are crazy if you think the snot-nosed little punks coming out of the pilot mills these days flying an RJ for 2 years, upgrading to CA, getting their 1000 PIC jet, then applying to ANY large aircraft airline are going to blink twice at jumping on board regardless of what happens to the industry.

Do you think for one second they CARE?

Do you believe for just one IOTA of a moment that there aren't thousands of them churning out every month?

That's the real problem we face: an influx of pilots who don't give a rat's, who are happy to make more than $50k a year getting into an Airbus or a Boeing under age 30, and won't grow a clue until they hit 50, start thinking about retirement, and complain about how much the profession has declined.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you are a professional pilot under the age of 50, you absolutely MUST find a business outside of aviation that will continue to pay you after you retire and make flying your hobby. Unions have fewer and fewer teeth as the years go by, we have less and less solidarity every year, and there will always be the next startup with lower and lower pay.

There is no fix to this; we've already reached critical velocity in the slow spiral down the crapper.


p.s. Again, Lowecur, if you were a pilot, you'd understand the ideas being presented here on the board. There is a symbiotic relationship between labor and management in keeping a business alive. One side can't simply live with the other causing it harm, and it will eventually lead to the demise of the business entity.

This isn't a socialist republic. There is no absolute requirement for the employees of a company to continue to accept substandard living and yearly pay cuts indefinitely simply to allow the company to survive. If it fails, it fails, and life WILL go on. At some point labor will recognize that fact and do whatever it has to do, regardless of what's good for the business.

Again, you have intelligence, but lack the depth of industry knowledge required for full understanding. We've been here before,,, and we will be here again.

 

[FNG_that's me]

Yep, that's me another pilot whore who needed a job to feed my wife and 2 kids. How selfish of me. And to think I left such a distinguished career in the Navy behind to whore myself out for such a lowly pittance.

Don't paint the jb pilot group with such a broad brush you moron. Notional national union? Is that like the notional EP-3 at airwing fallon?

1. You said JB, not me. Got a complex about something?

2. You didn't have to leave the Navy. Gotta complex about that too?

3. Notional EP-3? No, more like notional Close Escort, since the swing-wings were 4 to make 1 today. Or maybe it was notional Fox-3...turned out to be an AGM-64 again.

4. Since you brought up the Blue Dudes, I think representation will do you guys some good. Neelman isn't as interested in making you rich as he would have you seem.

Peace!

 

[GogglesPisano]

Nice post, Lear.

 

[IronCityBlue]

let who eat cake?

I think I said 10-15%, didn't I? Stop embellishing!

OK so it will maybe be closer to 10. I think we'll be able to scrape by on that.

They had 30 yrs to build up their cash reserves in an environment that was much different than today, and to my knowledge they never had an adversarial relationship with SWAPA (even though I'm predicting them thar days are over...too many former legacy zealots). Jetblue has a small window to get it right in the next few years, and their mgt has already proven that they are not infallable to making a wrong turn.

You are right about that. A small window to get it right. And they've messes up a lot lately. We shall see how they choose to proceed. Oh and that wonderful working relationship, wether it be ALPA, SWAPA, JBPA or whoever, will never come from a hostile management team calling their plays from the Ford and Harrison playbook.


You can't use CASM as a marker when you are flying an average stage length of over 1000mi.

Our stage length has decreased a lot this year. Any way you slice it, we are a rock bottom, dirt cheap, highly productive labor source. We should at least not be penalized for that.

So what's wrong with everyone being productive? Did it change your QOL?

It affects QOL, at JetBlue just as it does at SWA. That's fine, if there's a tradeoff, like there is at SWA. But when your productivity is disregarded entirely, or worse, used against you (and I think you know what I'm talking about) then that's a problem.

You've already proven to me you're not a team player with your comments that the little guy will have to eat cake.

Not a team player? Are you kidding me? I'm extra effort, above and beyond, motivated dedicated to the core. It takes 11 guys on a football team to score a touchdown, and all are equally motivated to work towards getting a championship ring. But the quarterback makes more than a lineman, and that's A-OK with me. If the lineman can't handel it, he can go to QB tryouts. JB loves to promote from within. Any FA, gate agent, ramper, etc who covets the job/pay/future B fund, etc of a pilot can put in his app. He/she will be treated with extreme preference once he/she meets minimum (or probably reduced) qualifications. But an entry level job with w few days/weeks of training is an entry level job, period. I did entry level jobs in aviation before, so have many others. I wanted more so I moved on. It never even occured to me to forever accept the very self imposed status quo that irked me, then turn around and unrighteously covet the hard earned prosperity of other professions. Its not about eating cake. This is America. You don't like your lot, rise above. But be prepared to work/train/get educated for it. I have little tolerance for pinkos who think they can get an entry level job with little or no education, experience or training required, punch the clock for years while never trying to better themselves or move up, then feel entitled to professional parity with others who'se cost of entry into what they percieve as a cushy gig is quite simply beyond their comprehension. Its not me telling them to eat cake my friend. Its them telling me to eat cake, and me politely telling them, with all due respect, to get over it.

I personally would like to see an in-house union on the property, but beginning in 2008. Hopefully, they will take a Que from SWAPA's early leadership and partner to build the company's war chest so that they can remain viable during the next downturn. I must say that I am skeptical having read the comments from other participants that are itching for a fight. I still think private is the way to go for Jetblue as that will shut off the realtime flow of financial information to the employee groups (the catalyst of the current unrest).

What's the difference between 2007 and 2008? If its an amicable relationship in the first place, what difference does it make when it starts? If we need to and decice to unionize, there are pros and cons to both national (ALPA, IBT, etc) unions and in house. You can't accuse the pilots of "itching for a fight" and not accuse some leaders/managers of the same. It works both ways. How the powers that be handel things these next few short months will likely determine the necessary equal and opposite reaction from its pilots both short and long term. I don't know anyone who'se "itching for a fight" or who wants to burn the house down, or choke the golden goose. Everyone I've met wants JB to suceed, and not just barely. But, as always, management will get the type of union (if at all) that they deserve. It can be like SWAPA, even if its ALPA. Or not. The pilots are only half of the equation.

imp:​

.....