Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[Fins Up]

I had to chuckle seeing V7's posts after being done with the thread. If you're done with it, don't even read it. You'll be too tempted to make a liar out of yourself. Is it a big deal? No. Just noticeable.

 

[clickclickboom]

Skybus out of Columbus OH is starting up a A320 operation that will pay CP's $65/hr to start.. That's less than a Muni Bus driver in NYC.

XtraAir pays 737 CP's $73/hr..

MaxJet pays 767-300ER CPs $93,000/yr

it's already begun.. B6 was just the horn that sounded the charge.

Uh actually the legacy waste and excess was in action long before jetblue came around.. It was a couple of boeing jets flying 450 mph into the towers that exacerbated the situation leading to thousands of legacy pilots on the street needing employment. Companies like max jet, eos, and xtra literally had thousands of Ready, Willing, and Able pilots ready to go. Mgmt knew it and so did the pilots..

So how again is this JB's fault with A320 narrowbody capt's making anywhere from $130 to $180k per year?

Gemini Yr 1 Capt 630,500lbs MGTOW $83 per hr
Skybus Startup 169,000lbs A320 $65 hr
Jb A320 Capt $110 hr
FDX Wide Capt $185
Ups $165

 

[HA25]

Being that most JB Captains are at the 5-7 years mark... explain to me how they're making anything more than 130K/yr based on what is public record?

If a 6 year JB CP is making $180K and a FO's at 60% of that.. I'll back off, and even apologize to all of you for saying you're bringing down wages. But everything I've read tells me your figures are 50K/yr off..

Lets not get into work rules, on and off the clock.. that' a whole different animal.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/jetblue.html

 

[clickclickboom]

Being that most JB Captains are at the 5-7 years mark... explain to me how they're making anything more than 130K/yr based on what is public record?

If a 6 year JB CP is making $180K and a FO's at 60% of that.. I'll back off, and even apologize to all of you for saying you're bringing down wages. But everything I've read tells me your figures are 50K/yr off..

Lets not get into work rules, on and off the clock.. that' a whole different animal.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/jetblue.html

Not interested in a new argument with you here on flight info find someone else..

Your avatar shows a Gemini Md11 Yr 1 capt on that bird is $83 so whats all this about bringing down the profession?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Being that most JB Captains are at the 5-7 years mark... explain to me how they're making anything more than 130K/yr based on what is public record?

If a 6 year JB CP is making $180K and a FO's at 60% of that.. I'll back off, and even apologize to all of you for saying you're bringing down wages. But everything I've read tells me your figures are 50K/yr off..

Lets not get into work rules, on and off the clock.. that' a whole different animal.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/jetblue.html

I just flew with a cap'n that made about 175k last year. Sold PTO, flew a ton though.

 

[HA25]

Not interested in a new argument with you here on flight info find someone else..

Your avatar shows a Gemini Md11 Yr 1 capt on that bird is $83 so whats all this about bringing down the profession?

I'm new at Gemini, and I think hey have a lot of upside potential and are fast on their way to recovery.

Before I was hired, and a while back, it didn't used to be that bad.. but there are bottom dwellers in the ACMI world making less, and non-union work rules as well. Add to that the economic downturn that lead to GAC's Ch11, and the concessionary contract is what it is.. In the end, the mediators that would have looked at our wages against many of the new ACMI's starting today would have told our ALPA that we had to accept the crap wages, or make our company non-competative.

Once again, all thanks to the fact that other pilots are willing to work for less..

Gemini has to compete with those companies, or go out of business.

But thanks for helping me make my point.. Southwest is the Gemini/Atlas and JetBlue, Virgin America, and SkyBus are the Cargo360, Centurion, and Focus Air ...

Just change the names.. the story remains the same.

 

[Falconjet]

Uh actually the legacy waste and excess was in action long before jetblue came around.. It was a couple of boeing jets flying 450 mph into the towers that exacerbated the situation leading to thousands of legacy pilots on the street needing employment. Companies like max jet, eos, and xtra literally had thousands of Ready, Willing, and Able pilots ready to go. Mgmt knew it and so did the pilots..

So how again is this JB's fault with A320 narrowbody capt's making anywhere from $130 to $180k per year?

Gemini Yr 1 Capt 630,500lbs MGTOW $83 per hr
Skybus Startup 169,000lbs A320 $65 hr
Jb A320 Capt $110 hr
FDX Wide Capt $185
Ups $165

Not to pick nits, but FedEx widebody Capt pay for year 2 is 206 per hour.
Narrowbody Capt pay is 175 per hour at year 2.

FJ

 

[HA25]

Not to pick nits, but FedEx widebody Capt pay for year 2 is 206 per hour.
Narrowbody Capt pay is 175 per hour at year 2.

FJ

Plus Fedex is to Gemini what Delta is to ASA.. The equipment may be similar, but the company (Fedex) has a market cap equal to most, if not all the Airlines flying today combined.. it's not an "Airline"... but it has an airline operating with in it.

Comparing WN and B6 is more of an apples to apples.. and there we see a 50% pay difference or more..

 

[sandman2122]

At FedEx you don't upgrade to Widebody Captain in ONE year clickclickboom.........we don't hire into the left seat regardless what's published in the contract, they may have years ago in the Falcon, but not now.........that's the $$ figure you quoted.

I believe the youngest 727 Captains are @ the 5 year point = $177 this year going up to $182 at DOS +1 year.

I also believe the youngest widebody Captains are @ the 9-10 year point = $211 this year going up to $217 at DOS +1 year.

There's mulitple varibles which include hire date, domestic/international ops, extra flying and domicile location just to name a few........your milage may vary.

 

[FNG_that's me]

The answer to all this 'race to the bottom', fingerpointing and self-justification is unity. The best path towards unity is nationwide representation. You're either on the team, or your against the team. I'm not completely discounting in-house as a decent option, but very few do anything for the profession as a whole, or even help themselves out much either. You may think that it does, but not as much as it seems.

 

[mach none]

Ty:

When we merge, you don't have anything to worry about. You will be grandfathered in and they only do the nicotine screen for new hires anyway.

 

[HA25]

The answer to all this 'race to the bottom', fingerpointing and self-justification is unity. The best path towards unity is nationwide representation. You're either on the team, or your against the team. I'm not completely discounting in-house as a decent option, but very few do anything for the profession as a whole, or even help themselves out much either. You may think that it does, but not as much as it seems.

Just ask APA how well inhouse unions work when they went on strike and a Democrat shut them down and send them back to work!

If it were ALPA, I doubt Clinton would have done that. This is all about political power and the lobbying the congress/whitehouse. A small JB pilots union is going to be totally useless for a while. APA is the most effective in-house, and they're still second rate.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

The answer to all this 'race to the bottom', fingerpointing and self-justification is unity. The best path towards unity is nationwide representation. You're either on the team, or your against the team. I'm not completely discounting in-house as a decent option, but very few do anything for the profession as a whole, or even help themselves out much either. You may think that it does, but not as much as it seems.

Do you know why the Equal Rights Amendment didn't pass?

Women. Women are their own worst enemy.

Do you know why a national pilot's union won't pass?

Pilots. Do I need to spell out the rest?


Just venture a quick perusal of this board's constant infighting, sniping, putdowns, diatribes and overall lack of porn and you will discover the numerous reasons why God is punishing us with Global Warning.

 

[IronCityBlue]

doing the right thing

Originally Posted by lowecur/ironcityblue

Actually I was talking about Senior Wences.

Yeah there's always some junior/senior divergence of interets, but there are numerous examples of pilot groups who fought hard, at great personal sacrifice, to end B scales, get 60+% CA pay for FO's, provide medical insurance and stock to furloughed pilots that they didn't have to, etc. The senior will always benefit, that's the nature of being senior. It doesn't necessarilly mean there will be an ongoing civil war of junior/senior at every airline.

Let's keep it simple and figure it's going to cost Jetblue an average of $10,000 per pilot in 2007 for pay, benefits, and lost productivity with a change in work rules. That's $16 to 20M just for 2007.

OK assuming your math is correct, you're talking about 8 to 10% of next year's profits only. While significant, said profits wouldn't be there in the first place were it not for one of the most insanely productive, efficient, motivated, extra mile (blah blah blah, etc) rock bottom lowest pilot CASM groups of any sizeable airline. See below.

Yes you do, but unfortunately the other employees are not going to sit by without wanting their increased share of the pie. Hence, other unions will begin to appear on the property, and guess what????...the $16 to $20M turns into $40-$50M.

Yes they will sit by. Just like when the company gave 30%+ raises in 2001 (and not to the other groups) precisely because pilots were grossly underpaid, they can do the same thing now. Just tell everyone "we compared pilot pay and benefits to pilot pay and benefits accross the industry and even after this increase in their pay and benefits, they are still substantially lower than SWA, DAL, UAL, NWA, etc." If a gate agent still doesn't like it, or a Flight Attendant, we can compare their wages and benefits to comparable positions across the industry. I bet the pilots are much farther below our peers than most other work groups at the company. It is 100% unacceptable for our pay and benefits to be forever tied to lock step parallel percentage increases and identical benefits as other much lower skilled and in many cases entry level positions. That is a fact of life. You may be correct though, maybe other groups will try to organize to get their "piece of the pie" just because we did. Then I'd say we DEFINATELY need a union, to protect us from the Bolsheviks. But that issue can be mitigated in the first place if all the equality rhetoric was simply kept in context. Yes we're all equal in the eyes of God, we all deserve equal protections of the Constitution, we're all equally loved by our mothers, etc. But not all jobs are equal, nor should they pay equal, nor should the retirement system be the same. And that's just the way it is.

Me thinks their average net is around 11% over the last 30 yrs, but they have had some bumps lately.

OK, so 11% and declining, and they're still the 800lb. gorilla. We on the other hand, will vaporize instantly if our profit margin dips below 15%. Not buying it.

imp: ​

You people seem to forget that SWA has a ton of cash and Jetblue is in hock up to it's arz. I couldn't think of a worse time to start this little adversarial duet, but I don't think like most MECs that have an obsessive compulsive mindset of self destruction and instability. It will be interesting to see how this little drama plays out.

imp:​

Insisting on reasonable increases that still result in one of the lowest pilot CASMs among any immaginable peer(s) and would still put us at or below just about everyone else in terms of pay, benefits and retirement, while still leaving us among the most productive pilots in the industry is hardly what I would call an adversarial duet. What page of the Union Busting Handbook did you get that little gem from? Oh, and your high water mark of 10K per pilot equating to a max of 20M/year, in addition to being roughly 10% of the minimum (fuel crisis not withstanding) profits our leadership is almost guaranteing investors, is coinsidentally the exact amount (actually slightly LESS) that we saved the company in fuel this year alone. The company has an opportunity to do the right thing, and it won't come near breaking the bank. But if they don't, then you are right, the resulting duet may indeed become adversarial, and that would be a shame because it doesn't have to be that way.

 

[Falconjet]

You guys realize you are debating this with an insurance salesman, don't you?

FJ

 

[lowecur]

Quote:
OK, so 11% and declining, and they're still the 800lb. gorilla. We on the other hand, will vaporize instantly if our profit margin dips below 15%. Not buying it. I think I said 10-15%, didn't I? Stop embellishing!

They had 30 yrs to build up their cash reserves in an environment that was much different than today, and to my knowledge they never had an adversarial relationship with SWAPA (even though I'm predicting them thar days are over...too many former legacy zealots). Jetblue has a small window to get it right in the next few years, and their mgt has already proven that they are not infallable to making a wrong turn.


Jetblue has one of the lowest pilot CASMs among any immaginable peer(s) You can't use CASM as a marker when you are flying an average stage length of over 1000mi. and would still put us at or below just about everyone else in terms of pay, benefits and retirement, while still leaving us among the most productive pilots in the industry is hardly what I would call an adversarial duet. What page of the Union Busting Handbook did you get that little gem from? Page 6. Oh, and your high water mark of 10K per pilot equating to a max of 20M/year, in addition to being roughly 10% of the minimum (fuel crisis not withstanding) profits our leadership is almost guaranteing investors, is coinsidentally the exact amount (actually slightly LESS) that we saved the company in fuel this year alone. So what's wrong with everyone being productive? Did it change your QOL? The company has an opportunity to do the right thing, and it won't come near breaking the bank. You've already proven to me you're not a team player with your comments that the little guy will have to eat cake. But if they don't, then you are right, the resulting duet may indeed become adversarial, and that would be a shame because it doesn't have to be that way.[/quote]I personally would like to see an in-house union on the property, but beginning in 2008. Hopefully, they will take a Que from SWAPA's early leadership and partner to build the company's war chest so that they can remain viable during the next downturn. I must say that I am skeptical having read the comments from other participants that are itching for a fight. I still think private is the way to go for Jetblue as that will shut off the realtime flow of financial information to the employee groups (the catalyst of the current unrest).

imp:​

 

[lowecur]

You guys realize you are debating this with an insurance salesman, don't you?

FJ

That shows there is intelligent life on this planet, present company not included.

imp:​

 

[FNG_that's me]

Just ask APA how well inhouse unions work when they went on strike and a Democrat shut them down and send them back to work!

If it were ALPA, I doubt Clinton would have done that. This is all about political power and the lobbying the congress/whitehouse. A small JB pilots union is going to be totally useless for a while. APA is the most effective in-house, and they're still second rate.

We're in agreement. Go back and read my post...national union=1st choice. In-house=half-assed, but not completely useless...kind of like my ex-wife.

 

[FNG_that's me]

Do you know why the Equal Rights Amendment didn't pass?

Women. Women are their own worst enemy.

Do you know why a national pilot's union won't pass?

Pilots. Do I need to spell out the rest?


Just venture a quick perusal of this board's constant infighting, sniping, putdowns, diatribes and overall lack of porn and you will discover the numerous reasons why God is punishing us with Global Warning.

You mean the pilots that take jobs which don't promote the profession as a whole, are not members of this notional national union, and work for substandard wages with substandard work-rules and have sub-standard pensions?

Those pilots, yes they are the problem.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

You mean the pilots that take jobs which don't promote the profession as a whole, are not members of this notional national union, and work for substandard wages with substandard work-rules and have sub-standard pensions?

Those pilots, yes they are the problem.

Yep, that's me another pilot whore who needed a job to feed my wife and 2 kids. How selfish of me. And to think I left such a distinguished career in the Navy behind to whore myself out for such a lowly pittance.

Don't paint the jb pilot group with such a broad brush you moron. Notional national union? Is that like the notional EP-3 at airwing fallon?