Jetblue pilots begin organization drive...

[F18-FDX]

AlbieF15

dont give up brother....Welcome to America. We are not your brothers that you flew with in the squadron. We are guys you grew up with in highschool that just somehow made it to the MAJORS. We do not seek leadership as we have always been our own leaders. What we do seek now is synergy. We acknowledge the fact that we have never been symphonically orcrestrated. We desire leadership and have chosen only the strongest amongst us to lead. To that decision we are still undecided. You Sir, would be considered if you would only acknowledge the fact that our comrades are some of the best you have never chosen to fight amongst. As a matter of fact we have all chosen not to fight useless wars unless we have representation in time of war. IN other words we will not fight blindly. What say you sir?

Huh? At least you make absolutely no sense...

 

[FDJ2]

i think your ALPA brothers at DELTA had no problem increasing their time without a study. therefore, congress WON'T be looking at jetblue, they'll be using YOUR ALPA BROTHERS to divide and conquer.

Where did you hear that? I think you are confused on your facts. Please clarify.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

... please provide us with 3 specific problems that exist within ALPA. In your past posts you may have cited some examples, but what I am really looking for here is for you to take that critical microscope of yours and aim it at ALPA.

I ask this because it's hard for me to find credibilty in someone who is quick to point out the faults in others, but fails to recognize their own... and we all have faults. Thanks in advance.

Oh-ryan-

A very valid post. In addition, before the three specific problems, I agree with your last parapraph. We all have faults and everyone brings something to the table. Consideration must be given to everyone however ideas must be pragmatic and workable.

What is wrong with ALPA-​

When it comes to unions, relatively, ALPA is very effective. However, it is obvious that the membership wants ALPA to be more effective in promoting and protecting Air Line Pilot Careers. (Don't we all have this in common?)​

ALPA has not figured out to maintian a real long term connection with the membership over its 75 years. Especially in the last five years, D. Woerth has failed connect with the membership. As the MIL guys know, with good leadership the troops will go almost anywhere. Because DW failed to even connect, the membership was uninformed, disrespected and not trusted. The backlash was scrutiny of ALPA President and staff contract/pay and DW's loss of election. Simply put ALPA has invalidated the membership and so the membership has repsonded in kind.​

ALPA Fault #1. DW failed to validate the membership.​

ALPA has evolved over the years but it is still growing. During new hire class, ALPA only has 30 mins to introduce, inform and educate the membership on what union represenation via the RLA is all about. Thus the membership remains aloof. When issues arise, the membership calls for unworkable solutions which hampers effectiveness. This also applies to LEC mmetings where attendance is ever so low.​

ALPA Fault #2. ALPA has failed to educate it members.​

Leadership is hard to come by in a volunteer organization. Unions for the most part are attractive to those who want or need ego verification. There are two kinds of union volunteers: those who want to defend the profession and help thier fellow pilot and those who want to stroke thier ego. Combined with the heavily political environement unions can quickly become passionate political debates via personal soap boxes. The focus of protecting and promoting Air Line Pilot Careers goes by the way side. Can it be another way? Unless dues increase to 5-10% to make everyone a paid employee, unions will have to depend on volunteerism. Nonetheless it is the responsibility of the pilots to be good leaders.

​

ALPA fault #3. ALPA has failed to promote effective leadership on the LEC, MEC, EC and national level.​

From a different angle the three above can be group together as "ALPA has failed to show its value to the membership"​

Any organization is useless without an effective membership.

My main issue is...... as pilots we are all Captains or Captains in training. When we fly jets we can do it very well. As US pilots we are the best. We can think critically and effectively. What that means is we are all leaders at our very core. However, as soon as we leave the flightdeck to address our careers we turn into ineffective sheep. I realize that maybe an offensive statement, but to be honest, we are running out of time to save this profession. In addition, if we are all leaders then we need to stop acting like sheep. IOW, do leaders need to be told to lead?

Leaders should know the ALPA national pay structure and deal with the facts.

Leaders should understand the political environment that effects our careers.

Leaders should know that management and gov't have different agendas.

Leaders should attend LEC meetings and not play ping pong in the rec room next door.

Leaders should self educate on the issues.

Leaders know that any organization is going to have faults yet they work together to effect positive change. They don't pack up thier marbles and go home.

Leaders are self starters that don't need to be hearded. Leaders don't play the blame game.


We can all sit around and say "well, I am not doing squat until ALPA fixes the three problems above". or "ALPA is corrupt" or "I hate ALPA". That attitude is self defeating, becuase is it your career. Your income. Your family. If you believe the above to be true, then get involved, informed and envoke positive change. Be a leader.

So, why have a turn this post back onto the membership? It is all about control.

In others words: control what you can and influence what you can't. The intent is to influence the ALPA membership to be effective leaders. Even followers can excerise leadership. No one can control your education, your LEC attendance, your understanding of the issues and your attitude. Only you can.


Your thoughts?

 

[AlbieF15]

Contract,

Eggnog, maybe?

I'm not sure I understood your post. I hope all you guys at a major airline like Jetblue that somehow got there out of high school find a way to stick together...ALPA or in-house...or even a good frank pilot/mangement discussion group. I have no dog in this fight except I know a lot of very nice folks at JB, and wish them all the best.

Don't know you...but wish you a Happy New Year as well...

 

[jbucpt]

Where did you hear that? I think you are confused on your facts. Please clarify.

The Federal Aviation Administration took the first step late last month by permitting some Delta Air Lines Inc. pilots to be scheduled behind the controls for a total of more than the current eight-hour limit during a single workday.
It issued special operational rules covering Delta's daily flights between Mumbai, India, and New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport that will allow the carrier to complete the trips without having to add an additional flight crew beyond the four pilots normally required on shorter international routes. It is the longest nonstop flight for any U.S carrier, scheduled for a maximum of about 16.5 hours. With weather and other complications, the flight could last 17 hours or more, and officials estimate that some pilots could end up flying about 40 minutes longer than the usual cutoff.

 

[FDJ2]

The Federal Aviation Administration took the first step late last month by permitting some Delta Air Lines Inc. pilots to be scheduled behind the controls for a total of more than the current eight-hour limit during a single workday.
It issued special operational rules covering Delta's daily flights between Mumbai, India, and New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport that will allow the carrier to complete the trips without having to add an additional flight crew beyond the four pilots normally required on shorter international routes. It is the longest nonstop flight for any U.S carrier, scheduled for a maximum of about 16.5 hours. With weather and other complications, the flight could last 17 hours or more, and officials estimate that some pilots could end up flying about 40 minutes longer than the usual cutoff.

You stated: " think your ALPA brothers at DELTA had no problem increasing their time without a study." You than back that statment up with a partially quoted article which you cut and pasted, but you conveniently left out part of that article. Now why is that? Try again next time.

In Boon to Airlines, FAA Allows
Longer Pilot Shifts on Some Flights

By ANDY PASZTOR
December 6, 2006; Page A5

With airlines relying increasingly on extended global routes, U.S. air-safety regulators have set an important precedent by allowing pilots to fly longer than normal shifts on certain nonstop trips.
The Federal Aviation Administration took the first step late last month by permitting some #HYPERLINK "http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=dal"Delta Air Lines Inc. pilots to be scheduled behind the controls for a total of more than the current eight-hour limit during a single workday.
It issued special operational rules covering Delta's daily flights between Mumbai, India, and New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport that will allow the carrier to complete the trips without having to add an additional flight crew beyond the four pilots normally required on shorter international routes. It is the longest nonstop flight for any U.S carrier, scheduled for a maximum of about 16.5 hours. With weather and other complications, the flight could last 17 hours or more, and officials estimate that some pilots could end up flying about 40 minutes longer than the usual cutoff.
Industry and government officials anticipate a spate of similar requests from other carriers to ease flight-time limits on so-called ultralong-range runs. The changes could lay the foundation for potentially significant labor-cost savings as more U.S. airlines scramble to open up longer, more profitable routes.
Peggy Gilligan, a senior FAA safety official, said the Delta flight "is a very good example of what we are going to do" with subsequent requests and is "an indication of how we are going to stay ahead of what technology will allow these planes to do."
The latest rules have sparked skepticism from some pilot groups partly because the outside fatigue-prevention expert Delta used, consultant Mark Rosekind, championed efforts last year that allegedly skirted flight-time restrictions for JetBlue Airways Corp. pilots on domestic flights. JetBlue has said safety wasn't compromised. Mr. Rosekind's office said he was unavailable. The JetBlue flights were the subject of an Oct. 21 page-one article in The Wall Street Journal.
Pilot unions "are very upset with the FAA" because there was no opportunity to formally comment on the decision, said Don Wykoff, a Delta captain and spokesman for the Air Line Pilots Association. The union "would have liked to have a second opinion" from another expert, he said. Delta worked closely with the FAA and others "to be able to offer customers the convenience of this direct flight under the same top-tier safety standards" used on every flight, said Steve Dickson, vice president of flight operations.
Captain Wykoff, who heads the union's group analyzing flight time issues, said that while the FAA informed pilots about the change it didn't do enough to seek meaningful input from them. As carriers enter new territory with flights longer than 16 hours, he said, pilots should be given "more of an opportunity for dialogue."
FAA officials said approvals initially will be made on a case by case basis but broad industry-wide rules are expected to be established later.
For the Mumbai-New York run, extra precautions required by the FAA include longer-than-usual mandatory rest periods prior to takeoff, use of other fatigue-prevention techniques and two specified sleep breaks totaling eight hours for each pilot during cruise. There are other unique rules specifying extensive rest periods after the flight, as well as in the event it is canceled. Flight attendants also are mandated to get extra-long rest periods before and during the flight. Delta has pledged to collect data and file regular reports with the agency.
The FAA's Ms. Gilligan said the decision tracks similar moves by foreign carriers, some of which allow flights longer than 16 hours with four-person crews. It reflects the latest scientific data about managing fatigue and improved cockpit technology and "sets out very detailed requirements" to ensure Delta pilots get adequate rest before and during the flight, she said in an interview earlier this week.
Existing flight-time limits for cockpit crews were "adopted decades ago, when airplanes were not capable of flying anywhere near 16 hours," the agency told Delta in a November 21 letter. FAA documents show that under some circumstances, the total duty time for pilots on the twin-engine, extended-range Boeing 777 flying from Mumbai to JFK could stretch beyond 20 hours, which includes both flight time and nonflight duties. Special overhead sleeping berths are available to provide rest for pilots and flight attendants.
Under the latest rules, Delta isn't required to carry more than the standard two pilots and two reserve pilots used on many international routes. In the past, the agency has given narrow waivers for pilots to be scheduled for slightly more than eight hours flying time at a stretch. But those were for shorter routes, generally across the Atlantic Ocean. In Delta's case, the agency says some India-U.S. flights will be allowed to take off even if the projected time from gate to gate is close to 18 hours.
The moves comes after years of work by the FAA and pilot groups to create a uniform set of enhanced maintenance, operational and equipment requirements for all jetliners flying long-distance routes. Those rules are expected to become final around the end of the year.

 

[tathagatha]

I'm honestly confused.

For the past several years when a poster would suggest that the pilots at JBLU consider unionizing that poster was mercilessly crucified with a tirade of epithets that unions were "old school" thinking and unions destroyed the legacies, JBLU management was awesome and always does the right thing for its employees, "we're a team" here and you just don't "get" the "team atmosphere" here, etc...

Now, apparently "out of the BLU" ( ) all I'm reading is we want a union! What gives? How could things have been so great for 6 years and then turn sour seemingly overnight?

Worse yet, perhaps a few posters over the past years with significant airline experience that quietly said "your time will come" (i.e, for unionization)... actually KNEW what they were talking about after all. It's hard to admit when you've been duped or made a serious miscalculation (in this case about JBLU management being somehow "different and special") and its a great letdown when the honeymoon with management is over. My guess is that very few of your professional pilot colleagues at other carriers are reveling in your current predicament, rather they welcome you to the coalition (for lack of a better term.)

That's my .02 and wish you guys the best (except on that transcon turn thing... I hope that falls on its face!)

BBB

PS

I have always thought that JBLU was the Macintosh/Apple of the airline business. Think about it. What they need to do is invent something like
iPod. Maybe it could be a teleporter system called, "iTransport." No need
for XMradio with instant transport. I bet you could find private equity with
that patent....

airboy

 

[hateairlines]

Has there ever been a "major" airline with ALPO on the property that has been around for more than 15 years that has not been bankrupt at some point? I could not think of one.

 

[Andy]

Has there ever been a "major" airline with ALPO on the property that has been around for more than 15 years that has not been bankrupt at some point? I could not think of one.

American Airlines
Alaska Airlines
FedEx

How many major airlines that have been around for more than 15 years that HAVEN'T been bankrupt at some point?

 

[jbucpt]

here's the reality. jetblue pilots were hooked up while taking part in an actual study.

i could be wrong, but i do not recall reading about delta pilots taking part in any fatigue study. DALPA can "grand-stand" all they want, however, DALPA has ALLOWED for an increase in duty time.

has DALPA prevented any of their pilots from not flying these longer routes??

an increase is an increase is an increase....

 

[FDJ2]

Has there ever been a "major" airline with ALPO on the property that has been around for more than 15 years that has not been bankrupt at some point? I could not think of one.

Your implication is that ALPA causes airline bankruptcies. There have been more non ALPA airline bankruptcies and liquidations than there are ALPA represented airlines. Does that mean that having ALPA on the propertiy is actually prevents bankruptcies and liquidations? Of course not. Nice try loser.

 

[PCL_128]

here's the reality. jetblue pilots were hooked up while taking part in an actual study.

i could be wrong, but i do not recall reading about delta pilots taking part in any fatigue study. DALPA can "grand-stand" all they want, however, DALPA has ALLOWED for an increase in duty time.

has DALPA prevented any of their pilots from not flying these longer routes??

an increase is an increase is an increase....

DALPA didn't "allow" for anything. The FAA issued an interpretation of the regs, and it didn't go in DALPA's favor. Pretty simple. All ALPA can do now is lobby for new rest/duty requirements.

That's quite a bit different than being in favor of an actual waiver to long-standing regs.

 

[FDJ2]

here's the reality. jetblue pilots were hooked up while taking part in an actual study.

i could be wrong, but i do not recall reading about delta pilots taking part in any fatigue study. DALPA can "grand-stand" all they want, however, DALPA has ALLOWED for an increase in duty time.

has DALPA prevented any of their pilots from not flying these longer routes??

an increase is an increase is an increase....

Nice back pedalling. Fact, DALPA does have a problem with this FAA decision. You were grossly wrong to state otherwise. Fact, the change in duty times was the result of the latest studies in fatigue. You were wrong to state otherwise. Fact, the Delta pilots did not use paying passengers to conduct any of these studies, unlike the willing participation of JBLU pilots.

Even when you are presented with the fact that DALPA has had limited to no input on this decision and objects to this decision by the FAA, you continue to state that DALPA has "ALLOWED" for an increase. You must be real stupid or so bitter and resentful that you can no longer differentiate between the facts and your own anti-ALPA resentments/hatred, no matter the facts.

 

[jbucpt]

Even when you are presented with the fact that DALPA has had limited to no input on this decision and objects to this decision by the FAA, you continue to state that DALPA has "ALLOWED" for an increase. You must be real stupid or so bitter and resentful that you can no longer differentiate between the facts and your own anti-ALPA resentments/hatred, no matter the facts.[/quote]


no i am not real stupid or real bitter. however, let me get this straight. ALPA goes to the FAA and complains that jetblue conducted a "study" on fatigue in hoping to increase duty time.

then the FAA allows DELTA to increase THEIR duty/flight time using information from the same individual who conducted the jetblue study. and the only response DALPA says is" we're very upset" AND does nothing to prevent THEIR PILOTS from flying those LONGER DUTY/FLIGHT PERIODS.

going back to the original argument from REZ who wrote; When the flight/duty times are up for review via congressional hearing, ALPA will show up the facts and with studies... And Congress will reply, well the JB (or whoever) pilots don't seem to have a problem.... Great. Now Congress is using divide and conquer.

jetblue has not increased any duty/flight time. DELTA/DALPA has.

 

[FNG_that's me]

AND does nothing to prevent THEIR PILOTS from flying those LONGER DUTY/FLIGHT PERIODS.

What do you want them to do, perform an illegal job action and all get fired?

The bottom line is that the JBLU pilots were supporting a change for the worse, the Delta pilots weren't. It was forced upon them and they have no legal recourse in the short run.