Jet Blue firing???

[B-atch]

I'm just a firm beleiver in MURPHY'S LAW....IF you leave you'r a$$ un-protected, someone will take advantage of the OPPORTUNITY!!....and NO, I'M not a PESSIMIST..Just a guy who has seen what management can do when the pilot group is VULNERABLE...Remember, "the wheel gets RE-INVENTED every monday morning at the dept. heads meeting"..Just something to think about...

 

[Flying Freddie]

You flamers are absolutely correct. By getting rid of the top guys after five years, Airbus will give us more free 320's! You have figured out the business model. Please don't let this information get out. I better get my resume ready 'cause The End Is Near!

 

[jbucpt]

of course their going to fire the "top heavy" pilots after 5 years. thats when jetblue starts paying for their aircraft..................

 

[Resume Writer]

I read the contract that was sent to me. Pretty straight forward and it actually looks like it protects both parties pretty well. It gives reasons why the agreement would be terminated and clearly spells out that those are the only reasons. I do not see how anyone could be fired unless you violate those reasons. It also says that the pilots will be reviewed on a regular basis to see if there are any deviations from what is stated. If you are following the provisions stated, you should be ok.

Kathy

 

[1-tacan-rule]

Firing an employee

My brother is a Union Lawyer, and I've discussed this topic of "firing" several times with him...especially after opening my own business 7 mos ago. An employer CAN fire an employee for no reason (if that employee is not under a union contract). As my brother put it: "can't an employee quit without a reason?...why,then, shouldn't he be able to be let go without a reason?"

If an employer does fire an employee without documented reasons, the employers unemployment insurance will likely go up since he'll be facing a (more) claims. He also could be vulnerable to litigation as the employee might contend that he/she was being fired because he/she was a (fill in the blank) instead of any other reason. Interestingly one of his clients did contend that he/she was fired because he/she was a he/she....different topic for another thread.

The issue in this thread that makes me ill is the cynicism about JB mgt, like somehow they are just waiting to cut pilots after their initial contract. THIS DEFIES LOGIC ON SEVERAL LEVELS:

a) do you REALLY think pilots would apply to a company two, three, or four years from now if JB started firing pilots this year who reach the end of the contract?
b) WTF about JB mgt (especially DN) makes you think they are capable of this dastardly act?

Realize, please, that I am just a military pogue who actually wants a job with JB.....WHY?...oh simply because the five buds I know who work for them LOVE WORKING FOR THEM! Me want be happy too....

On my cynical days, I have this notion that all the crows sitting on their perches 20 years from now will still be squaking about JB getting ready to screw it's pilots....and JB pilots will still be shaking their heads and laughing....

 

[Vortilon]

$350,000 to hire and train one pilot? I thought you guys are efficient....better get that cost down!

 

[jetblue320]

$350,000 to hire and train one pilot? I thought you guys are efficient....better get that cost down!

I think someone added a zero to embellish.

C ya

 

[Resume Writer]

My brother is a Union Lawyer, and I've discussed this topic of "firing" several times with him...especially after opening my own business 7 mos ago. An employer CAN fire an employee for no reason (if that employee is not under a union contract). As my brother put it: "can't an employee quit without a reason?...why,then, shouldn't he be able to be let go without a reason?"

If an employer does fire an employee without documented reasons, the employers unemployment insurance will likely go up since he'll be facing a (more) claims. He also could be vulnerable to litigation as the employee might contend that he/she was being fired because he/she was a (fill in the blank) instead of any other reason. Interestingly one of his clients did contend that he/she was fired because he/she was a he/she....different topic for another thread.

A union can fire an employee even if they ARE under a union contract. I have seen them come up with bogus reasons. The problem is, they better have their ducks in a row and have proper documentation. The companies bank on the fact that the employee will not be able to withstand the length of TIME it takes to get your job back. The grievance process is long and it takes forever to get an arbitration date. One gal at my former airline was fired for a "failed drug test." Her husband was very involved in the formation of a union for rampers. Turns out the claim was bogus on the part of the company, but it took her 3 YEARS to get her job back! I know of three people personally that are in arbitration to get their jobs back - all fired on bogus reasons.

Also, if you are living in a "termination at will" or a "right to work" state, you are vulnerable - with or without a union. You are correct that their experience rating will go up if unemployment claims are filed, and through the appeals process, the company loses. And yes, they are also vulnerable to lawsuits - but once again, who has the money to pursue a lawsuit? Employers will roll the dice so to speak.

When I did HR, I never had an unemployment claim rule in favor of the employee because I documented everything properly and followed protocol, with everything clearly spelled out. The difference being that many people who terminate employees are NOT HR trained and know nothing of the law or proper documentation. ONE word in a termination letter can change the whole scope of the termination.

Am I a lawyer? Not by a long shot! I do not presuppose to know everything about employment law or the legalities involved. But having been in HR for many years, I have seen a lot of pitfalls happen because individuals in a management capacity have no clue on how to handle employee terminations.

Just my two cents...

Kathy

 

[wndshr]

Simple logic would dictate that if DN and company DID NOT want unions on the property....then it would PROBABLY NOT be a good idea to abuse a five year employment contract with the employees....I don't know but this seems pretty basic to me! I would like to challenge the pro union dudes to name an unionless airline that actually NEEDS a union based on management treatment! I also would like to see a survey of companies (not just airlines) comparing work rules and QOL issues with and without unions. My $$ would definitely be put in favor of the unionless companies!
..
If JB started firing guys for questionable reasons, the whole corporate culture would change. That corporate culture is the golden key to JB's success...and their killer finance deal of not having to pay for Airbusses..or engines, or gates....just snacks! I am hoping for the same deal on my Mortgage...no bites yet...

PS...I think if I were a JB pilot I would be far more worried about management leaving or retiring than I would be about a five year employment contract.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

The $350k to HIRE and train a pilot came from HR as they use that figure for tax credits. But if you think about it, the breakdown is about 10K to hire, do background checks, travel and hotel expenses, interviewers time and salaries, sim time, salry and hotel expenes in MIA, rental cars, IOE time, instructor salaries and benefits, etc., etc. and then there's unemployment costs for the fired pilot. It costs big bucks! That's why we have such high standards in hiring. As to the previous comment about not nice people at JB, well you've got to be here. I know at least 9000+ pilots want to be here.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

The contract is a formality... When I signed it 3 years ago, we signed on to make $78/hr and F/Os at $43/hr. Gee, in the middle of my 5 year contract, I got a 32% raise-- show me guys what airline did that in the middle of your contracts???

 

[Dizel8]

I want to thank you all, for showing such concern for the pilot employees at jetblue. It is nice to see, so many of you show such caring and thought for us. Most of us are brand new to the business and as such, were not aware of the many infractions management at airlines have perpetrated againts their employees or how a great job can turn to shat.

I hope you will continue, to show us Koolaid drinking neophytes, the right way!

 

[FDJ2]

I also would like to see a survey of companies (not just airlines) comparing work rules and QOL issues with and without unions. My $$ would definitely be put in favor of the unionless companies!

Working with a Union Contract vs. Working non-union

The Following is a List of general advantages enjoyed by an Employee working under a Union contract as opposed to an Employee working in a non-union position. Your specific contract may have additional advantages
​

Contract
A legal document that defines hours of work, wages, and other conditions of employment; establishes procedures for the resolution of disputes.

Contract
No Contract. Employer’s rules and policies may be changed at the employer’s discretion or whim.

Wages
Union wages are negotiated with your employer and are guaranteed and spelled out in your contract.

Wages
Employer arbitrarily sets wages. The law requires payment of minimum wage under certain conditions.

Seniority
Used to determine, a among other things, placement on wage schedule, layoff procedure, vacation and holiday scheduling, overtime assignments, job bidding, shift scheduling.

Seniority
At the employer’s discretion whether to use seniority.

Discipline
For just cause only, following progressive discipline.

Discipline
YOU’RE FIRED . . .Employment at will.

Grievances
The contract provides a structured procedure for handling disputes in the workplace which are in violation of that contract.

Grievances
The employer may provide an "open door" policy to discuss disputes, but the employee often finds the door has been shut and locked.

Arbitration
The contract provides for arbitration of grievances, when appropriate, at the Union’s expense.

Arbitration
Any legal action brought by an employee against an employer must be paid for by the employee.

Health/Welfare/Pension
Benefits negotiated by the Union, most often with employer contributions to premiums.

Health/Welfare/Pension
Not required under law. Employer’s option.

Vacations
Paid vacation negotiated according to length of service with the employer (seniority).

Vacations
Vacations given, paid or unpaid, at the employer’s whim.

Holidays
Holidays above and beyond legal holidays (i.e., Christmas, 4th of July, etc.) With pay negotiated by the Union.

Holidays
The employer must observe certain holidays by law, but is not obligated to pay the employee for these holidays.

Sick Leave
Paid sick leave or short term disability.

Sick Leave
Sick leave paid at employer’s discretion.

Leaves of Absence/Parental Leaves
Negotiated leaves which go beyond laws, with return to work guarantees.

Leaves of Absence/Parental Leaves
The employer must grant only those leaves mandated by law and only under strict guidelines.

Layoff
Protected by seniority. Return-to-work- rights specified in contract.

Layoff
No protection for long-term workers. In fact, sometimes layoffs start with long-term, higher paid workers.

Protection
Language that protects the Union members in case of sale, merger, take-over or closing of business.

Protection
NONE.

Small/Big Companies
Employees in small companies have same rights and protections as those in big companies, as negotiated in the contract.

Small/Big Companies
Rights and protections legislated by size of company, number of employees, cash assets, etc. under State and Federal law.

Dues
Small portion of entire wages and benefits paid to Union for representation.

Dues
No dues - no rights! (But you may get a turkey at Thanksgiving!)

Percentage of Firms Offering Each Benefit
Union vs. Non-Union
​

asdf

UNION
​

NON-UNION
​

Medical Insurance

86.0%
​

63.5%
​

Disability Insurance

48.1
​

23.7
​

Life Insurance

58.7
​

33.8
​

Dental Insurance

50.3
​

19.1
​

Retirement Plan

61.8
​

31.4
​

Performance Bonus

26.1
​

10.7
​

Paid Sick Days

60.1
​

37.1
​

Paid Vacation Days

82.2
​

62.0
​

Paid Holidays

65.3
​

57.4
​

Profit Sharing

51.6
​

24.8
​

Bonuses

62.7
​

39.1
​

Stock Options

5.7
​

2.0
​

Education Reimbursement

36.0
​

18.2
​

Company Car

72.8
​

37.0
​

Club Memberships

16.9
​

6.4
​

Sources: Cahners Research and Contractor Magazine
​

 

[B-atch]

Unionism?

Unionism...By far not a perfect science, but a much needed SAFETY NET in todays complex business world..Remember folks, management teams come and go, but pilots....Well, we are married to the airline, hopefully untill retirement arrives..If you are willing to bet that the present work rules at JB will last forever..Wait untill the bean counters determine that "COST REDUCTIONS MUST BE IMPLEMENTED".Then all you can do is run and put on you'r rain coat CUZ the SH!T STORM just begun.....and that's just my 2 cents!!

 

[jetblue320]

Man, you Union guys get all that stuff, and for free right? Ok, that's it, how do we get one of them thar' Unions where I work? I really like the "club memberships" as an added bonus. That in and of itself would be worth it.


C yaaa

 

[B-atch]

Time will tell.......Then, IT WILL BE TOO LATE.

 

[FDJ2]

Man, you Union guys get all that stuff, and for free right? Ok, that's it, how do we get one of them thar' Unions where I work? I really like the "club memberships" as an added bonus. That in and of itself would be worth it.


C yaaa

Hey, it was just a general comparison and no one said union membership was free. Once you get off the kool aid, you might want to consider that unions were not created in a vacuum, they are a result of management practices. You mock one silly benefit, but you ignore the rest, which points out that that overwhelmingly unionized workers enjoy superior benefits, qol and pay. Any benefits, work rules or job security which you imagine that you have is subject to change at managements discretion whenever it feels like it.

 

[FDJ2]

Time will tell.......Then, IT WILL BE TOO LATE.

Very well put.

 

[wndshr]

thanks for the comparison! didn't think someone would take the time to do it!

anyway, it only drives the point that JB must be more than an exceptional place to work since they enjoy the same "benefits" that a unionized company offers plus more! the most important thing that you missed on the list of benefits that a union/nonunion organization offers........drum role...........MORALE! an intangible that is worth way more than $$$$$$$$$. if the TRUST is broken between management and labor, there is no amount of $$$$ or lack thereof, which will buy back morale. I think this is the most important point that DN and company at JB understand. Sure, they don't have union contracts, grievances etc to deal with...but...they know the simple management/labor formula is very delicate and once breached, it can destroy a working relationship.

That is why my current opinion stands.......if I were a JB pilot, I would be more worried about losing the current mgt than anything else! With the current mgt, it is clear no union is needed! If for some reason the management/labor formula ever breaks..all bets are off!

 

[jetblue320]

Hey, it was just a general comparison and no one said union membership was free. Once you get off the kool aid, you might want to consider that unions were not created in a vacuum, they are a result of management practices. You mock one silly benefit, but you ignore the rest, which points out that that overwhelmingly unionized workers enjoy superior benefits, qol and pay. Any benefits, work rules or job security which you imagine that you have is subject to change at managements discretion whenever it feels like it.

Hey, I was making a joke. And truth be known, I'll never be off the kool-aid. I do not care where unions were created. I have belonged to them before and that is why I do not belong to them now. That is good for me and that is all that counts. Now before you go off calling me selfish and tell me how my company is going to screw me someday, why do you care if JB has a union anyway? The folks I work for have never given me any reason to think that the QOL and benefits I have now will go away. Not in my lifetime anyway. So please save your salespitch for someone who is buying, I'm not.

C yaa