Jet Blue firing???

[BIGBROWNDC8]

I heard from some friends that JB had fired some pilots who were approaching thier 5 year mark. This is not flame, Im just curious if this is true from anyone at JB or if this was just BS... If its true what were the circumstances surrounding the firings? Ive been on vacation and out of the loop. Thanks... BBDC8

 

[Resume Writer]

I heard from some friends that JB had fired some pilots who were approaching thier 5 year mark. This is not flame, Im just curious if this is true from anyone at JB or if this was just BS... If its true what were the circumstances surrounding the firings? Ive been on vacation and out of the loop. Thanks... BBDC8

Not being a Jet Blue employee, I could not tell you true or false.

If it is true, I would have to venture a guess that perhaps they were trouble makers of some sort. Here is a direct quote from the JetBlue Annual report:

"We enter into individual employment agreements with each of our FAA-licensed employees. Each employment agreement is for a term of five years and automatically renews for an additional five-year term unless either the employee or we elect not to renew it. Pursuant to these agreements, these employees can only be terminated for cause. In the event of a downturn in our business, we are obligated to pay these employees a guaranteed level of income and to continue their benefits if they do not obtain other aviation employment. As we are not currently obligated to pay this guaranteed income and benefits, no amounts related to these guarantees are included in the table above."

From an EMPLOYERS standpoint, they were very smart in making employees sign those contracts. It gives them an out in case they have people working for them that are less than desirable. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there that can fool you in the interview, and even a year or so into their employment. But, eventually, they show their true colors. I am certain that if they did fire anyone, it was for cause. Even though there is a contract, there must be some kind of guidelines that people have to meet. (I am not sure what they are because I have not seen the contract.)

It does not make sense for any company to arbitrarily fire employees - especially pilots who cost so much to train and maintain proficiency. Further, the cost of acquiring a new employee is money that they would rather not spend. That is why a good many companies have an in-depth hiring process.

I would be curious to see this contract language if anyone is willing to send it to me.

From an EMPLOYEE side of things - no matter WHO you work for, document every issue that comes up. No matter how small you may think it is. That way, if you are fired, you also have a paper trail.

Kathy

 

[skirt]

Nope. No firings. That would be foolish. If someone deserved to be fired, it would be independent of the 5 year deal.


Skirt

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

wow, that's pretty low

 

[flx757]

wow, that's pretty low

So is your assumption that this unsubstantiated rumor is true.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

We just hired Donald Trump to help us out too!

 

[TonyC]

From an EMPLOYERS standpoint, they were very smart in making employees sign those contracts.

From an employer's standpoint, it would seem that NO contract would be a more flexible approach. THEN, Management would be free to fire a pilot at any time for no cause at all. It seems to me the individual contracts are just enough to appease most pilots there to not seek a collective bargaining arrangement.

I would be curious to see this contract language if anyone is willing to send it to me.

They're real tight-lipped about that - - as many as frequent this forum, none were eager to cough up a copy when this subject last came up. You might find a link with a forum search, or I can forward you the copy I acquired once I get back home.

 

[Resume Writer]

From an employer's standpoint, it would seem that NO contract would be a more flexible approach. THEN, Management would be free to fire a pilot at any time for no cause at all. It seems to me the individual contracts are just enough to appease most pilots there to not seek a collective bargaining arrangement.

They're real tight-lipped about that - - as many as frequent this forum, none were eager to cough up a copy when this subject last came up. You might find a link with a forum search, or I can forward you the copy I acquired once I get back home.

That was my original thought about the pilots not seeking a collective bargaining agreement. But, I also think Neeleman is smart enough to keep his people happy through paying them well and giving them a good work environment.

As for the "flexibility" of being able to fire a pilot for any reason without a contract, that is not really going to protect them from lawsuits which could go in the employees favor. This way, it keeps the temptation of management from firing someone just because they do not like them. Not saying that there might not still be lawsuits; there very well could be lawsuits - especially if there is no documentation or cause.

I would love to see a copy when you get back. I just want to see how it is worded to see if there are any potential loopholes in it. I just appreciate a well-worded legal document.

Kathy

 

[a320drivr]

As a jetBlue pilot, do I think our management would fire you if they didnt like you? Absolutely!!! I have been told there is one assistant chief pilot that would like nothing more than to see me gone. Have I ever screwed up? Nope. My nose has been kept so clean just for this reason. It sucks to be afraid to lose your job. Especially in this environment.

 

[saabcaptain]

i suppose there is always a possibility of just terrible bad luck, but where there is smoke there is usually fire. if one keeps their nose clean and never had an issue how do you get on the bad side of a chief pilot? this isn't meant to say you did anything, i just am honestly curious what you think he dislikes so much and how something like that comes to pass?

 

[jetblue320]

Simply, it's bullsh!t.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

As a jetBlue pilot, do I think our management would fire you if they didnt like you? Absolutely!!! I have been told there is one assistant chief pilot that would like nothing more than to see me gone. Have I ever screwed up? Nope. My nose has been kept so clean just for this reason. It sucks to be afraid to lose your job. Especially in this environment.

what'd you do?

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

Hey, a320driver, PM me. I'll go to Pete R. on your behalf, if I have to, to get this monkey off your back.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

As to the firing after five years, my senority hasn't moved since the last retirement. It costs JB over $350k to hire and train pilots. Dumb economics to can some one after that investment for no cause. The over five year guys are in fact working on a six to ten year contract with mgmt. As to the comment about an asst. chief is waiting for an excuse to fire you, BS. Contact the Values Committee and they will straighten him out. The last firing of any pilot was because the guy lied about a bunch of stuff. Having flown with him, you wouldn't him in your cockpit.

 

[80drvr]

As to the firing after five years, my senority hasn't moved since the last retirement. It costs JB over $350k to hire and train pilots. Dumb economics to can some one after that investment for no cause. The over five year guys are in fact working on a six to ten year contract with mgmt. As to the comment about an asst. chief is waiting for an excuse to fire you, BS. Contact the Values Committee and they will straighten him out. The last firing of any pilot was because the guy lied about a bunch of stuff. Having flown with him, you wouldn't him in your cockpit.

Is that 350k to train (1) pilot?

 

[TonyC]

That was my original thought about the pilots not seeking a collective bargaining agreement. But, I also think Neeleman is smart enough to keep his people happy through paying them well and giving them a good work environment.

As for the "flexibility" of being able to fire a pilot for any reason without a contract, that is not really going to protect them from lawsuits which could go in the employees favor. This way, it keeps the temptation of management from firing someone just because they do not like them. Not saying that there might not still be lawsuits; there very well could be lawsuits - especially if there is no documentation or cause.

I would love to see a copy when you get back. I just want to see how it is worded to see if there are any potential loopholes in it. I just appreciate a well-worded legal document.

Kathy

FedEx pilots operated for a very long time with no contract, and no guarantee of a job tomorrow. As it was, Management could have fired someone because they parted their hair on the wrong side, so long as that reason was not stated. No reason would have been required. Lawsuits could only develop if and when Management were to have stated a reason for firing that fell outside of reasonable justification for firing. In other words, as long as they didn't SAY it was because of the hairdo, they could fire you because of your hairdo.

I think Neeleman has at least THAT much going for him that he's got everyone locked in, and at the same time locked out, with the individual contracts he uses.

About the contract, first let me link you to a recent conversation on this forum about the JetBlue Contract: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=33096

And now a link to a website that has the contract: http://www.apapdp.org/oal.contracts.php

Hmmmmmm..... very interesting... the JetBlue contract has been removed.

Lucky for me, I saved a copy on the ole hard drive... Look for it in e-mail, Kathy!

 

[B-atch]

Whats next??

It must be disconcerning to walk the tight rope without a net...A new standard in AIRLINE CULTURE.. Whats next, INDENTURED SERVANTS??

 

[Dizel8]

Oh, I doubt very much, any of the pilots at jetBlue feel they are walking on a "tightrope, a320drvr claim nothwithstanding.

A320drvr, I too would like to hear, how one gets into trouble, if one keeps his nose clean?

 

[B-atch]

What rights??

Has anybody ever heard the term "RECYCLING THE PAY SCALE". It seems to me that JB has in its reach the tools to LIQUIDATE the top heavy pilots by opting not to renew the mutually agreed 5 year contract....If you sign on the dotted line, you have no right to pursue RESTITUTION....Maybe it is a TEMP JOB after all???

 

[Dizel8]

Why discuss this with you, you obviously know what they are going to do. I guess I should be concerned, but strangely enough, I am not.

 

[B-atch]

I'm just a firm beleiver in MURPHY'S LAW....IF you leave you'r a$$ un-protected, someone will take advantage of the OPPORTUNITY!!....and NO, I'M not a PESSIMIST..Just a guy who has seen what management can do when the pilot group is VULNERABLE...Remember, "the wheel gets RE-INVENTED every monday morning at the dept. heads meeting"..Just something to think about...

 

[Flying Freddie]

You flamers are absolutely correct. By getting rid of the top guys after five years, Airbus will give us more free 320's! You have figured out the business model. Please don't let this information get out. I better get my resume ready 'cause The End Is Near!

 

[jbucpt]

of course their going to fire the "top heavy" pilots after 5 years. thats when jetblue starts paying for their aircraft..................

 

[Resume Writer]

I read the contract that was sent to me. Pretty straight forward and it actually looks like it protects both parties pretty well. It gives reasons why the agreement would be terminated and clearly spells out that those are the only reasons. I do not see how anyone could be fired unless you violate those reasons. It also says that the pilots will be reviewed on a regular basis to see if there are any deviations from what is stated. If you are following the provisions stated, you should be ok.

Kathy

 

[1-tacan-rule]

Firing an employee

My brother is a Union Lawyer, and I've discussed this topic of "firing" several times with him...especially after opening my own business 7 mos ago. An employer CAN fire an employee for no reason (if that employee is not under a union contract). As my brother put it: "can't an employee quit without a reason?...why,then, shouldn't he be able to be let go without a reason?"

If an employer does fire an employee without documented reasons, the employers unemployment insurance will likely go up since he'll be facing a (more) claims. He also could be vulnerable to litigation as the employee might contend that he/she was being fired because he/she was a (fill in the blank) instead of any other reason. Interestingly one of his clients did contend that he/she was fired because he/she was a he/she....different topic for another thread.

The issue in this thread that makes me ill is the cynicism about JB mgt, like somehow they are just waiting to cut pilots after their initial contract. THIS DEFIES LOGIC ON SEVERAL LEVELS:

a) do you REALLY think pilots would apply to a company two, three, or four years from now if JB started firing pilots this year who reach the end of the contract?
b) WTF about JB mgt (especially DN) makes you think they are capable of this dastardly act?

Realize, please, that I am just a military pogue who actually wants a job with JB.....WHY?...oh simply because the five buds I know who work for them LOVE WORKING FOR THEM! Me want be happy too....

On my cynical days, I have this notion that all the crows sitting on their perches 20 years from now will still be squaking about JB getting ready to screw it's pilots....and JB pilots will still be shaking their heads and laughing....

 

[Vortilon]

$350,000 to hire and train one pilot? I thought you guys are efficient....better get that cost down!

 

[jetblue320]

$350,000 to hire and train one pilot? I thought you guys are efficient....better get that cost down!

I think someone added a zero to embellish.

C ya

 

[Resume Writer]

My brother is a Union Lawyer, and I've discussed this topic of "firing" several times with him...especially after opening my own business 7 mos ago. An employer CAN fire an employee for no reason (if that employee is not under a union contract). As my brother put it: "can't an employee quit without a reason?...why,then, shouldn't he be able to be let go without a reason?"

If an employer does fire an employee without documented reasons, the employers unemployment insurance will likely go up since he'll be facing a (more) claims. He also could be vulnerable to litigation as the employee might contend that he/she was being fired because he/she was a (fill in the blank) instead of any other reason. Interestingly one of his clients did contend that he/she was fired because he/she was a he/she....different topic for another thread.

A union can fire an employee even if they ARE under a union contract. I have seen them come up with bogus reasons. The problem is, they better have their ducks in a row and have proper documentation. The companies bank on the fact that the employee will not be able to withstand the length of TIME it takes to get your job back. The grievance process is long and it takes forever to get an arbitration date. One gal at my former airline was fired for a "failed drug test." Her husband was very involved in the formation of a union for rampers. Turns out the claim was bogus on the part of the company, but it took her 3 YEARS to get her job back! I know of three people personally that are in arbitration to get their jobs back - all fired on bogus reasons.

Also, if you are living in a "termination at will" or a "right to work" state, you are vulnerable - with or without a union. You are correct that their experience rating will go up if unemployment claims are filed, and through the appeals process, the company loses. And yes, they are also vulnerable to lawsuits - but once again, who has the money to pursue a lawsuit? Employers will roll the dice so to speak.

When I did HR, I never had an unemployment claim rule in favor of the employee because I documented everything properly and followed protocol, with everything clearly spelled out. The difference being that many people who terminate employees are NOT HR trained and know nothing of the law or proper documentation. ONE word in a termination letter can change the whole scope of the termination.

Am I a lawyer? Not by a long shot! I do not presuppose to know everything about employment law or the legalities involved. But having been in HR for many years, I have seen a lot of pitfalls happen because individuals in a management capacity have no clue on how to handle employee terminations.

Just my two cents...

Kathy

 

[wndshr]

Simple logic would dictate that if DN and company DID NOT want unions on the property....then it would PROBABLY NOT be a good idea to abuse a five year employment contract with the employees....I don't know but this seems pretty basic to me! I would like to challenge the pro union dudes to name an unionless airline that actually NEEDS a union based on management treatment! I also would like to see a survey of companies (not just airlines) comparing work rules and QOL issues with and without unions. My $$ would definitely be put in favor of the unionless companies!
..
If JB started firing guys for questionable reasons, the whole corporate culture would change. That corporate culture is the golden key to JB's success...and their killer finance deal of not having to pay for Airbusses..or engines, or gates....just snacks! I am hoping for the same deal on my Mortgage...no bites yet...

PS...I think if I were a JB pilot I would be far more worried about management leaving or retiring than I would be about a five year employment contract.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

The $350k to HIRE and train a pilot came from HR as they use that figure for tax credits. But if you think about it, the breakdown is about 10K to hire, do background checks, travel and hotel expenses, interviewers time and salaries, sim time, salry and hotel expenes in MIA, rental cars, IOE time, instructor salaries and benefits, etc., etc. and then there's unemployment costs for the fired pilot. It costs big bucks! That's why we have such high standards in hiring. As to the previous comment about not nice people at JB, well you've got to be here. I know at least 9000+ pilots want to be here.