JB pilots file with NMB

[elag777]

I think Splert means this part:

"Notwithstanding the foregoing, and in accordance with the terms of the Plan, the Airline reserves the right to amend the Plan or any future plan at any time and from time to time, or to terminate the Plan or any such plan, consistent with applicable legal requirements."

What say you Elaq?

I would have to say that they (the company) would have to terminate the plan in its entirety to avoid an individual pilot from signing a new amendment. The agreement renews every five years unless amended. As far as I recall pilots were not required to sign the latest amendment and are still covered by the language in the old one. “At any time” still has to be documented in an amendment and subsequently signed, or unless immediately terminated the agreement must be honored until its term is complete. I do believe it gives latitude in the event that the company enters significant financial distress and can no longer fund said 401K without throwing the entire PEA in the trash.

 

[starvingredtail]

Once again you show your lack of understanding of gov't systems and market systems.

Explain to the users of this message board HOW jB pilots will give up individual rights for the greater cause of the union?

As of now, they have ZERO rights! By voting in a union they gain rights under federal law, a voice, self representation, self governance... how is that communism or socialism?

Unions and HOAs don't claim to guarantee freedoms of the constitution. That is the purpose of our gov't. Why is it when you walk into a business, your second amendments are stripped? When you choose to function in a corporate domain you choose to give up your constitutional rights. There is no freedom of speech in Best Buy! Security will usher you out..




I am looking at it from an individual integrity standpoint... if democracy is good enough for our gov't structure and worth fighting for then why not in unions and HOA's?

Why would one vote in a gov't election but not a union election? Is the democracy different...?

Or is there a better way than democracy in our non-gov't domains?




And why should they? The gov't already guarantees individual rights. What unions do is copy the democratic example made possible by the FF. Why not recognize it, respect it and exercise it.... would that be........... American?

What unions do is guarantee rights in the corporate domain, the non-gov't domain, the workplace domain... because you have minimal and unsatisfactory rights in the workplace.




So the free market system that resulted in the Great Depression is gosh darn it, good ol golly Beaver Cleaver Mom and Apple pie? with over 25% of Americans out of work, I don't think there was much apple pie...

The current financial crises brought to us by free market capitalism is Mom and apple pie?


Once again I think you have a different American value system.

You value capitalism because you think it is American. Well it is.. but it is also Chinese.

What is exclusively American is democracy. And we use democracy to run our unions and HOA's. Sounds pretty American to me....

Rez,
I am going to run away from this fight because it is meaningless. I have explained myself. I have pointed out the differences you are ignoring. You have typically ignored that I am voting for the union, and that I still have an ALPA card and a pin with a star on it. Your rantings are like you are talking to yourself. I will take Bavarian Chiefs advice and recuse myself from your socialist binge. Enjoy Comarade!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,
I am going to run away from this fight because it is meaningless. I have explained myself. I have pointed out the differences you are ignoring. You have typically ignored that I am voting for the union, and that I still have an ALPA card and a pin with a star on it. Your rantings are like you are talking to yourself. I will take Bavarian Chiefs advice and recuse myself from your socialist binge. Enjoy Comarade!

Let's not get personal, rather let's stick to the issue and debate. If you have a valid point, I want to hear.... perhaps learn something....


I am not questioning your understanding of and support of unions...

This has become a discussion of democracy and what it is...

Why am I on a socialist binge because I state that capitalism is not democracy...??



So I'll ask again.....

If capitalism is freedom, liberty, American and democracy, how does capitalism thrive in China where there is no democracy and liberty?


Why would we pride ourselves on being the worlds great democracy but be indifferent to democracy in other organizations? Is it American to be indifferent to democracy and elections?
​

 

[Splert]

I would have to say that they (the company) would have to terminate the plan in its entirety to avoid an individual pilot from signing a new amendment. The agreement renews every five years unless amended. As far as I recall pilots were not required to sign the latest amendment and are still covered by the language in the old one. “At any time” still has to be documented in an amendment and subsequently signed, or unless immediately terminated the agreement must be honored until its term is complete. I do believe it gives latitude in the event that the company enters significant financial distress and can no longer fund said 401K without throwing the entire PEA in the trash.

The PEA only summarizes what is currently in effect at the time of signing and continually points to The PLAN (SPD) as the document that determines the terms and conditions of our participation.

Notwithstanding this summary the airline reserves the right to amend The Plan at anytime.

Our 401K and PS are not guaranteed by our PEA. Our PS is not guaranteed. The matching percentages and PS can change at anytime without the need for an amended PEA. That is what first and third sentence spell out.

You are wrong elag777 and I suspect that you already know that.

Next question:

What does the PEA guarantee in terms of our Health Plan?

 

[elag777]

So I'll ask again.....

If capitalism is freedom, liberty, American and democracy, how does capitalism thrive in China where there is no democracy and liberty?​

The communist party is the only party there is. China doesn’t have freedom of speech or freedom of the press. It doesn’t tolerate dissent. Authorities can arrest and imprison people who threaten stability, as the party defines it. Any group that dares to protest is treated brutally. There are no civil liberties, no labor unions, no centers of political power outside the communist party. Capitalism is fixed and corrupt. If you fail as an industry leader you die, it thrives because it is the communist party and it feeds its very existance.

 

[elag777]

The PEA only summarizes what is currently in effect at the time of signing and continually points to The PLAN (SPD) as the document that determines the terms and conditions of our participation.

Notwithstanding this summary the airline reserves the right to amend The Plan at anytime.

Our 401K and PS are not guaranteed by our PEA. Our PS is not guaranteed. The matching percentages and PS can change at anytime without the need for an amended PEA. That is what first and third sentence spell out.

You are wrong elag777 and I suspect that you already know that.

Next question:

What does the PEA guarantee in terms of our Health Plan?

As with any agreement inside or ouside the scope of a CBA nothing is ever guaranteed....all you have to do is look at the contracts that were tossed out in the last round of bankruptcies. Maybe you should ask the USAir guys why their pension was not guaranteed. I don't think I am wrong, I just think you think you are right. Its your opinion and I respect that.

 

[Splert]

I guess that is your way of saying the company can change our 401K and PS plan at anytime without amending the PEA.

The difference between our PEA and OALs CBAs is that the SPD can not be changed unilaterially by the airline. At JetBlue the airline can change the SPD anytime (see our health care plan). They and you just try and sell it to others as if they can't.

Now that is the integrity value.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Let's not get personal, rather let's stick to the issue and debate. If you have a valid point, I want to hear.... perhaps learn something....


I am not questioning your understanding of and support of unions...

This has become a discussion of democracy and what it is...

Why am I on a socialist binge because I state that capitalism is not democracy...??



So I'll ask again.....

If capitalism is freedom, liberty, American and democracy, how does capitalism thrive in China where there is no democracy and liberty?​

Why would we pride ourselves on being the worlds great democracy but be indifferent to democracy in other organizations? Is it American to be indifferent to democracy and elections?​

Will you DORKS please take this to another thread?

Seriously, this thread is about JB and the NMB -- not a discussion about the Founding Fathers, God, the evolution of the Union, the Magna Carta, or whether Sleestacks on the TV show "The Land of the Lost" harmed an entire generation of children.

START ANOTHER F-IN THREAD YOU JAGNUTS.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

I would have to say that they (the company) would have to terminate the plan in its entirety to avoid an individual pilot from signing a new amendment. The agreement renews every five years unless amended. As far as I recall pilots were not required to sign the latest amendment and are still covered by the language in the old one. “At any time” still has to be documented in an amendment and subsequently signed, or unless immediately terminated the agreement must be honored until its term is complete. I do believe it gives latitude in the event that the company enters significant financial distress and can no longer fund said 401K without throwing the entire PEA in the trash.

Huh? Why would it need to be a new amendment? They decide to stop the 5% PSP and they do, no amendment needed. What part of the PEA says they have to continue to honor it?

Better yet -- ask the company what they say about this. That is if you can get a straight answer.

Dude, your "I Believe Button" is big, red and shiny. And apparently too hard to resist.

 

[clickclickboom]

Will you DORKS please take this to another thread?

Seriously, this thread is about JB and the NMB -- not a discussion about the Founding Fathers, God, the evolution of the Union, the Magna Carta, or whether Sleestacks on the TV show "The Land of the Lost" harmed an entire generation of children.

START ANOTHER F-IN THREAD YOU JAGNUTS.

Chef you used to make me angry but now I love you that is some great $hit !!!!

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Chef you used to make me angry but now I love you that is some great $hit !!!!

Well, as an adult, I learned long ago, that when it comes to the internet -- you don't have to have the last word.

 

[Splert]

Dude, your "I Believe Button" is big, red and shiny. And apparently too hard to resist.

Funny stuff.

Sad but funny...

 

[starvingredtail]

Will you DORKS please take this to another thread?

Seriously, this thread is about JB and the NMB -- not a discussion about the Founding Fathers, God, the evolution of the Union, the Magna Carta, or whether Sleestacks on the TV show "The Land of the Lost" harmed an entire generation of children.

START ANOTHER F-IN THREAD YOU JAGNUTS.

Hey BV,
I tried to quit because Rez is on "autobabble". Please drop the plural form of "Dorks" to the singular "Dork". If you do not, I will continue to argue with him starting with the political rights of the cave man.

 

[Dogwood]

I'm in.

In the top 50%, and I will vote NO. Simple

 

[Dogwood]

J32:

That statement about a woman cuts both ways. I have been sold out by a union more than I have by management.

I choose to trust the people that run this company. They are not perfect and they will admit it. When was the last time a union admitted fault? I don't trust ALPA and believe it or not, continuing down this road you may get what you did not ask for.

When I accepted the job with JB, I knew what the conditions of my employment were. I won't go back now and complain about it in the environment we find ourselves.

A350

Good Post A350 !!!!!!!

 

[elag777]

[Bavarian Chef]Huh? Why would it need to be a new amendment? They decide to stop the 5% PSP and they do, no amendment needed. What part of the PEA says they have to continue to honor it?

Better yet -- ask the company what they say about this. That is if you can get a straight answer.

Dude, your "I Believe Button" is big, red and shiny. And apparently too hard to resist.

Unemployment at an all time hi....the Dow at a six year low B6 stock down 15% and you guys want to drive labour costs up...great idea. My so called "believe" button is no more than a red shiny "go away" button. I agree areas in the PEA are open to interpretation, so is the need for a CBA. After all CBA's have done such wonderful things for retirement funds industry wide right?

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Look around except for SWA in the airline industry and soon to be UAW. UAW had 300,000+ members they are now down to 150,000...

Unions = Job losses

No protection from anything now in this economy. So far JBLU has not furloughed. This NMB filing has now, if anything, encouraged our leaders to suspend any kind of improvements to our QOL, pay, and benefits until this vote is done. Thanks JBPA!!!

 

[MCDU]

Jetblue is looking like USAIR in the 80's. Lots of hiring and suddenly boom. There will be have and the have nots. Just a few years will make the difference. Timing is everything. It will be like USAIR DOH 1985 or 1988. At Jetblue, it will be 2004 and 2007.
There will be almost 0 retirements at Jetble in the future. So, the only way to upgrade will be more growth, which I do not see.

Anyway, JetBlue is still a great product. If your product would not be as good , you would have been gone by now.

Good luck to all the Jetblue Pilots. With or without a Union.

M

 

[Dizel8]

This NMB filing has now, if anything, encouraged our leaders to suspend any kind of improvements to our QOL, pay, and benefits until this vote is done. Thanks JBPA!!!

What improvements BB? Oh, you mean the ones that JR says they cannot give because we are now in "laboratory conditions"?

I have to tell you, from my personal perspective, that there has not been a single real improvement since I started here a "long" time ago. The last real improvement was in 2002, since then, all the company has done is shift money around, everything has essentially been cost neutral, looked good on paper, but a bit of investigation would have shown no actual improvement.

I like it here, I like the company and I respect Barger, but I also realize, that the time has come to actually have a say in the matter. I am hopefully a career employee, 24 years to go, so I want to see the company succeed. I also want to see my contribution to the success of the company acknowledged. The company had an excellent opportunity with the PCRB, but they completely dropped the ball.

I don't want much, a payscale that at least acknowledges inflation and no one sided changes to the scheduling manual.

The hope that the company will do the right thing, when they have continuously shown no such intent isn't the way to go forward. Hope isn't a plan.

 

[Blue Dude]

This NMB filing has now, if anything, encouraged our leaders to suspend any kind of improvements to our QOL, pay, and benefits until this vote is done. Thanks JBPA!!!

Which improvements are those? You were expecting improvements between now and the time when the vote will be taken in a few weeks? The company has had two shots at "annual" reviews and both were farces. For the last one, they flatly ignored the report they themselves commissioned. And notice that there hasn't even been an an announcement as to when future "annual" reviews will even occur, much less when action might be taken. All that has happened is to discuss initiating a framework to schedule the commencement of a plan to begin to start to set up yet more committees, which even when constituted will be merely advisory in nature. Which similar advice has been repeated ignored in the past.

All this and you blame JBPA? Where have you been the last few years?