JB pilots file with NMB

[starvingredtail]

I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion.
~Thomas Jefferson

Meaning less government.

 

[82spukram]

I plan on voting yes and I am in the bottom 200. I am on the 190 and I can only hope to find my way to the 320 (because upgrade is no where in site)(I do not complain about that on every trip by the way because I learned before jb that upgrades are not a guarantee so although it stinks to be stuck on this airplane my only complaint is the hourly pay compared to my 320 counterparts who I believe $5/hour more is fair not $9 and then $12) where I can make the same on reserve at 3rd year pay then at 85 hours of credit on the 190 (IF you think that is fair and believe that management has done the right thing then you will love the traditional union you claim to think is bad for jb).

So everyone here says that the company will furlough if we vote in a union. WHY? Two reasons why not that I can think of: 1) they plan on hiring 100 pilots next year (according to several things put out by the company with some reverences quoting DB himself (a Boston newspaper was most recent on the daily news). 2) The company has not furloughed because it does not make sense to.....why furlough 300 pilots who have to work for 70 hours of pay on property and have the remaining 1700 working at 70 hours plus 20 hours of premium when you can pay everyone 70 hours of base pay and have them for when you want to them. It actually saves them money to not furlough. And you can add training cost on top of that.

Also if jb is so much different from ever other airline management out their then why would they take to punishing us for believing that a union is good for us. In theory they should voice their opinion against it (which they have) and during the campaign and then start working under the new processes; not take it to us to teach us a lesson: what would that say about them. And we as pilots have done this in the past when they have changed the rules.

As for all the PCRB, work rules, benefits (med and 401k) I agree with the benefits that a union would provide for us to separate from the others in the company. So I say to all who argue against a union convince me that I can get a 12-13% match for my 401k, so I am industry average, and not have to worry about IRS implications, show me how to get med benefits that are industry avg. And then give me a plan that is more then a band aid but actually gives me an idea (I know contracts can be changed but even those I get an idea of what I am going to be paid before it happens) what I will be paid in 3 to 5 years time if my seat does not change I can determine if this (jb) is right for me. I could go on but those are the biggest reasons I have and if you can argue a way the company could do this then I am all ears.

 

[ArmadilloJackal]

Here's why a 3rd year E190 FO who sent in his card is now on the fence. With no chance in the near future to move seats, I've had SEVERAL A320 captains tell me they're supporting JBPA because they didn't get a raise and that by giving me a merely 5% (still less per hour than those 500 numbers junior to me) that the wealth is being spread around. Know your audience. I don't want the top guys having any more influence than they already have. Do they need a raise, yes, but they'll throw me under the bus to get it. Is that short sighted, maybe, but I assure you my current obligations to my family are not and I don't live beyond my means. I appreciate the way the JBPA constitution allows for equal representation but the senior guys' "robbing Peter to pay Paul" arguments are falling on deaf ears. You senior guys are not helping your cause. My raise is not coming at the expense of yours. Do you really think a $3 raise for 50-100 guys is anything other than a drop in the ocean? Maybe someone can tell me how it's management's fault that I can't bid off the 190 without growth, but I don't see how that will change with JBPA. Now, convince me that a true seniority system will pay in accordance with seniority and you may have another "yes" vote. I'm not ideological, I'm pragmatic. One list, remember.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion.
~Thomas Jefferson

...which begs the question of why you want to put so much power in the hands of the federal government.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Meaning less government.

Exactly... meaning more power to the people... or in this case.. to the pilots....

That the whole point of a union... to give more voice to the pilots.... When a jB pilot comes to work he does what he agreed to, but if that agreement changes, then he comes to work and does what he is told.....


Simply put, jB views its pilots like it does the rest of its employees. When it comes to respect for all, that is fine, but when it comes to compensation for education, experience, certification and responsibility there needs to be reward for responsibility...


Why is it jB takes the hard worked money generated by its pilots and uses it to lobby our gov't? When jB does that does jB management represent its pilots? Yet laws effect jB pilots are passed on CapHill. Who speak for jB pilots? And even if someone did, would they speak as well for jB pilots as they would themselves.

Once a union is formed the representation is governed by federal law.


JBPA is getting great guidance by SWAPA.... and this will be a big help....

 

[Dizel8]

junior [/b]to me) that the wealth is being spread around. Know your audience. I don't want the top guys having any more influence than they already have.

You may believe what you want, but I can only say, that the 320 Captains have NO influence, never had, if they did, the PCG action plan would probably given then a least a 1% raise, but as you know, it gave nothing. I am top 5% but I have no influence whatsoever, now, I have rallied for better reserve conditions, for higher pay on the 190, but I really haven't pushed for better conditions for myself. Perhaps I should have, since you want to blame me for it, just figured in the grand scheme of things, someone in the company was getting screwed even more than I and that seemed like a good starting point.

You are spouting Obama rhetoric: "Well, they make more than I, so they need to be "punished"! Hate to tell you, but if you adjusted the 2002 payscale for inflation, then my earning power has decreased, nope, not getting all those fancy toys JR keeps talking about.

I know of no single senior guy that wants to see you make less, none of the people I know wants to see anyone furloughed so they can get a higher bid divisor, but the powers that be wants you to believe that, class war fare at it's finest.

 

[J32driver]

ArmadilloJackal...

Your concerns about the Senior eating the Junior are very valid and I appreciate them. I truly believe that the JBPA idea of blocks of seniority getting equal voting rights will really help to stop this and will allow the junior to have an equal voice.

This union vote is about so much more than just this topic though. Please go to the jetbluepilots.org site and read the PCRB rebuttal.

For me, this is all about these items:
1) The chance for a pilot's medical plan
2) The chance for a pilot's insurance plan and REAL LOL and short/longterm disability geared towards pilots, not bag smashers and gate agents
3) The chance at a "B" plan, because we fail ERISA every year, and as the company grows, its unsustainable for them to give everyone else an extra contribution so the Highly Compensated Employees don't take in the shorts on their 401K.
4) I want to be represented by a CBA so that when UAL or Continental or Frontier or USAirways decides to buy us, we are DEFINITELY covered by the new merger laws passed by congress. I don't want to have to start that fight by trying to learn if we are really even covered by the law.
5) I want a union in place BEFORE Barger retires and hands the keys over to Frank Lorenzo. I don't want to read the press release and think...."I wonder how long it will take to put a union on property now that we REALLY need the protection".

These are just a handful of reasons. I have more... but these are the big ones.

 

[ArmadilloJackal]

Dizel8,

Should have mentioned I realize many senior guys recognize they're really are two airlines here, and many are very vocal about those at the bottom of the list for the better. I fly with guys all the time who were junior and furloughed in former lives. They get it. My mistake to insinuate no one is empathetic, definitely not my intention. I certainly don't want our pilot group to be divisive regardless of where this falls out. Guess I shouldn't judge the intentions of a group by the actions of a few.

 

[ArmadilloJackal]

Yo

You are spouting Obama rhetoric: "Well, they make more than I, so they need to be "punished"! Hate to tell you, but if you adjusted the 2002 payscale for inflation, then my earning power has decreased, nope, not getting all those fancy toys JR keeps talking about.
----------------------------------------------------
Don't see your argument here. I don't think it's an accurate comparison to compare an ATP pilot who got here first to an ATP pilot who got here second as a metaphor for our society. That's a bit dishonest. Now, a lazy high school dropout compared to an entrepreneur who creates jobs, then I'll agree with you. My whole complaint all along is that #1350 makes less than #1900 after his/her first anniversary.

 

[Dizel8]

Don't see your argument here. I don't think it's an accurate comparison to compare an ATP pilot who got here first to an ATP pilot who got here second as a metaphor for our society. That's a bit dishonest. Now, a lazy high school dropout compared to an entrepreneur who creates jobs, then I'll agree with you. My whole complaint all along is that #1350 makes less than #1900 after his/her first anniversary.

I cannot control that, the company can, yet, you insinuate that I have some control over the issue, but I know you know better.

No, I don't think that is fair, not by a long shot, but to make the 320 pilots the scapegoats for this is dishonest.

I, while only speaking for myself, wants what is best for all of us, I don't think that is what the company wants, they wants was is best for keeping us divided and I hate to say this, but some are taking the bait hook, line and sinker!

I want to be compensated at the level of my peers, compensated according to what I contribute to the company. The PCRB report spoke volumes as did the MIT study.

You and I are not enemies, we are brothers in arms, and if we don't stand together, we will most assuredly fail!

 

[Splert]

Would someone post this PCRB report or link.

 

[elag777]

Here's why a 3rd year E190 FO who sent in his card is now on the fence. With no chance in the near future to move seats, I've had SEVERAL A320 captains tell me they're supporting JBPA because they didn't get a raise and that by giving me a merely 5% (still less per hour than those 500 numbers junior to me) that the wealth is being spread around. Know your audience. I don't want the top guys having any more influence than they already have. Do they need a raise, yes, but they'll throw me under the bus to get it. Is that short sighted, maybe, but I assure you my current obligations to my family are not and I don't live beyond my means. I appreciate the way the JBPA constitution allows for equal representation but the senior guys' "robbing Peter to pay Paul" arguments are falling on deaf ears. You senior guys are not helping your cause. My raise is not coming at the expense of yours. Do you really think a $3 raise for 50-100 guys is anything other than a drop in the ocean? Maybe someone can tell me how it's management's fault that I can't bid off the 190 without growth, but I don't see how that will change with JBPA. Now, convince me that a true seniority system will pay in accordance with seniority and you may have another "yes" vote. I'm not ideological, I'm pragmatic. One list, remember.

Bingo! someone gets it! I'd rather take my 2% and turn it into a $150k IRA by the end of my career. It has and always been the old (senior guys) eating the young.....(junior guys) don't dignify the "fight" to be anything else but me me me and I I I... first on the "blank" piece of paper will be furlough and displacement language...can't wait!uke:

 

[ArmadilloJackal]

I cannot control that, the company can, yet, you insinuate that I have some control over the issue, but I know you know better.

No, I don't think that is fair, not by a long shot, but to make the 320 pilots the scapegoats for this is dishonest.

I, while only speaking for myself, wants what is best for all of us, I don't think that is what the company wants, they wants was is best for keeping us divided and I hate to say this, but some are taking the bait hook, line and sinker!

I want to be compensated at the level of my peers, compensated according to what I contribute to the company. The PCRB report spoke volumes as did the MIT study.

You and I are not enemies, we are brothers in arms, and if we don't stand together, we will most assuredly fail!

I agree with you, we're on the same side. I do not blame the 320 guys, I just haven't made up my mind and want to hear all arguments. The PCRB report was a Herculean achievement in a short amount of time. We definitely have talent in our ranks. Regardless of anyone's personal choice, I trust they are making what they think to be the best decision with the information they have. I don't think anyone has nefarious motives.

 

[Dave's kid]

Bingo! someone gets it! I'd rather take my 2% and turn it into a $150k IRA by the end of my career. It has and always been the old (senior guys) eating the young.....(junior guys) don't dignify the "fight" to be anything else but me me me and I I I... first on the "blank" piece of paper will be furlough and displacement language...can't wait!uke:

It often amazes me that union's turn to the eat their young mentality quickly. Everyone says they want to protect all people, but when it comes time for someone to get screwed it almost always is done in reverse seniority order.

 

[Dave's kid]

Would someone post this PCRB report or link.

Nope. It's 64 pages long and proprietary. If you know someone at JB ask them to give you a copy.