JB pilots file with NMB

[A350]

The union did not furlough me....you are correct. But they were complicit.

They allowed massive outsourcing of my job, and the jobs of many others, to be bid on by the lowest bidder. In almost every case, the lost job was regained by another UNION pilot at a third of the price. No union in the world values seniority and experience with such a casual nature, nor would they allow it at all as it is the foundation of what a union is about. Without that foundation, the union cannot hold the line on wages and benefits and that is what has hamstrung ALPA and nearly evey other union that has represented pilots.

You never replied about the fact that half the JB group was somewhere else and watched the slow decimation of our contracts. Is it any wonder that most of us shy away from it again?

A350

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And...at those union airlines, where they have taken cuts in pay and benefits, they are, according to the PCRB results, still getting better pay and benefits than pilots at B6. Those comparisons are all from "concessionary" contracts, most while in bankruptcy.

LUV pilots are taking pay cuts? In BK?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The union did not furlough me....you are correct. But they were complicit.

Unions don't run airlines and they don't control market forces...

They allowed massive outsourcing of my job, and the jobs of many others, to be bid on by the lowest bidder. In almost every case, the lost job was regained by another UNION pilot at a third of the price. No union in the world values seniority and experience with such a casual nature, nor would they allow it at all as it is the foundation of what a union is about. Without that foundation, the union cannot hold the line on wages and benefits and that is what has hamstrung ALPA and nearly evey other union that has represented pilots.

But do you have answers??? How would unions have stopped the outsourcing?

You never replied about the fact that half the JB group was somewhere else and watched the slow decimation of our contracts. Is it any wonder that most of us shy away from it again?

A350

Yeah they watched.

I never cared for guys who sat in the stands and watch others play with their careers...


The point...

Maybe this time you'll put down the beer and hotdog, come down off the stands and participate in your career....

If your previous union couldn't stop management from destroying your career, what makes you think no one will stop management from ruining your career?

 

[A350]

Rez:

That may be how some MEC's work, but I went to plenty of meetings and you couldn't storm the castle unless you were a brown nosing kiss a#$ and a member of the club.....They didn't take advise and they usually had the meeting because they had to. The path of least resistance had already been chosen (to them anyway).

I watched with disdain as we gave up concessions to get a board seat, and then we became a deer in the headlights as the MEC's leader became a member of the board and subject to NDA's and SEC rules. The union was castrated because the MEC wanted to be management and have closed door meetings where confidential stuff was discussed.....it was like cutting the head off a snake.

Since I desired to be none of the above, I took my leave of the meetings as they usually were disgusting displays of arrogance, stupidity, or both.

A350

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez:

That may be how some MEC's work, but I went to plenty of meetings and you couldn't storm the castle unless you were a brown nosing kiss a#$ and a member of the club.....They didn't take advise and they usually had the meeting because they had to. The path of least resistance had already been chosen (to them anyway).

I agree. ALPA needs to make LEC meetings user friendly... they don't train officers on how to run meetings so that pilots want to come back...

at the same time... pilots will elect an ego maniac, narcissist, or Machiavellian because he promises to kick as$ and "get things done". Well, do you think that is the kind of LEC chairman that will open discussion and take guidance from a membership meeting...


ahhh the complexities of democracy.....

I watched with disdain as we gave up concessions to get a board seat, and then we became a deer in the headlights as the MEC's leader became a member of the board and subject to NDA's and SEC rules. The union was castrated because the MEC wanted to be management and have closed door meetings where confidential stuff was discussed.....it was like cutting the head off a snake.

Again, I agree.... sounds like either a ego maniac, narcissist or Mach.... why elect them in the first place...

Since I desired to be none of the above, I took my leave of the meetings as they usually were disgusting displays of arrogance, stupidity, or both.

A350

If I read you correctly you'd rather not take on the chore and burden of self rule and governence and just operate under 'ignorance is bliss'... I hope management takes care of me....

 

[A350]

Rez:

Standing on the sidelines does not guarantee ignorance....however, in this industry, and the times that I have been employed at JB, management has taken care of me.

Are they perfect? Not at all. All the whining I hear is from a select group who feel a CBA is the only way to get anything. I disagree.

I spent the first 20+ years as an airline pilot being a union member. It didn't work out so well. When I interviewed, I liked the concept and the working agreement. Since then, there have been improvements to the agreement, all made quickly and without outside involvement. I understood what I was getting by coming to JB.

A lot of the whining I hear comes from forces which cannot be controlled by the company and for which the only cure is a healthy, growing company.

A350

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Good reply.....

If standing on the sidelines is not ignorance, then are you saying that you knew that the union was FUBAR but did nothing to make it better?

How is it SWA runs a successful company with SWAPA as a partner.....

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Here's the answer, JBPA is not Swapa, and Jetblue is not SWA. SWA has disappointed pilots in their ranks as their flying to Canada and now Mexico was given to "partners"... Management early on could have given our 190 flying to a partner airline, but has decided to keep it under the same roof to protect our brand. There is no perfect model, but I do know this-- JBPA is not the answer, not right now and maybe not ever. We all joined this airline because of its uniqueness, why dilute this to become something we know has failed time and time again!!!

 

[CaptainSpaz]

Rez:

Standing on the sidelines does not guarantee ignorance....however, in this industry, and the times that I have been employed at JB, management has taken care of me.

Are they perfect? Not at all. All the whining I hear is from a select group who feel a CBA is the only way to get anything. I disagree.

I spent the first 20+ years as an airline pilot being a union member. It didn't work out so well. When I interviewed, I liked the concept and the working agreement. Since then, there have been improvements to the agreement, all made quickly and without outside involvement. I understood what I was getting by coming to JB.

A lot of the whining I hear comes from forces which cannot be controlled by the company and for which the only cure is a healthy, growing company.

A350

A350,

I see in your status that you are keeping your 2.5%. The JBPA apparently is budgeting at 1.5% down to 1% after 6 months. Will that work? If you run a lean operation, why not? If they want to be a different association, thats a helluva start, IMHO.

I also noticed your use of the word "whining". A term also used very frequently around our shop as a noun: "whiners". To be sure, there are a select few who make whining a day to day practice. However, are you going to tell me that at least 700 JetBlue pilots are just whiners? Surely there is no substance to back up their support of JBPA?

In my humble opinion, at 2000+ pilots, this group is growing out of the cult culture that has fostered the misconception that we are better than everyone else simply because we are JetBlue. I believe this is a great company, with a great culture, that can continue to be all those things with an informed and organized pilot group.

Spaz

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Here's the answer, JBPA is not Swapa, and Jetblue is not SWA. SWA has disappointed pilots in their ranks as their flying to Canada and now Mexico was given to "partners"... Management early on could have given our 190 flying to a partner airline, but has decided to keep it under the same roof to protect our brand. There is no perfect model, but I do know this-- JBPA is not the answer, not right now and maybe not ever. We all joined this airline because of its uniqueness, why dilute this to become something we know has failed time and time again!!!

If it has truly failed then pilot groups nationally would be rejecting their unions, decertifying representation and putting themselves at the whim and mercy of our managements that view our careers as jobs....

In addition it seems that 700+ pilots feel like management has taken advantage and not recognized for work completed...


Sorry, but I keep thinking of the fatigue experiment and how if there was an association or representation, that would have not happened....

 

[DIAMONDDD]

LUV pilots are taking pay cuts? In BK?

I'm not sure what your argument is with my quote. Someone stated that JetBlue never furloughed and didn't have to give concessions like those airlines with "unione protections". My statement was to that person and it said that, even without pay cuts, Jetblue's pay and work rules were below the average. AND, included in that "average" were most groups that had BK and/or concessionary contracts forced upon them. In short........

His argument "We never had pay cuts and furlough"
My Argument "We still make less even after their pay cuts and furloughs"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

copy that.... thanks...

 

[coogebeachhotel]

Here's the answer, JBPA is not Swapa, and Jetblue is not SWA. SWA has disappointed pilots in their ranks as their flying to Canada and now Mexico was given to "partners"... Management early on could have given our 190 flying to a partner airline, but has decided to keep it under the same roof to protect our brand. There is no perfect model, but I do know this-- JBPA is not the answer, not right now and maybe not ever. We all joined this airline because of its uniqueness, why dilute this to become something we know has failed time and time again!!!

What would stop Jetblue from giving the 190's to a regional to operate them?

Blue Bayou at one time I was a naive go getum kool aid type. Once you get burned you will know. Only a matter of time before your blue haze goes away.

 

[A350]

Spaz:

I am keeping my 2.5% is a statement from old...how I am not a member of ALPA anymore. I currently do not wish to pay any of my salary to fund a failed strategy......

Whiners is not a word I would use to describe 700 of my brother and sister pilots....however, I read a lot of what is posted and it is the same 100 or so complaining about the same stuff over and over. It gets the others going and before you know it you have a vote for representation. Not everyone who signed a card will vote for representation.

If 700 of the JB pilots want representation....good on them. They have their reasons and I have mine for not. I feel that in this industry, with what we have seen post 9/11, post $147/bbl oil, and now with a sagging economy, that JB management is doing the right things. Rome wasn't built in a day and the idea that a CBA or a union will take away a lot of the ills of the industry and this pilot group, and therefore make the company more money, fund a B fund, pay more hourly wages, etc..... is a fantasy.

IMO, there is no way the JBPA can make it work at 1.5%....and if you are going to build a war chest to whether a strike, I would say 3% is more likely. And lets face the brutal facts. If a union is worth a #$#@, then the ability to strike to force an employer to capitulate is the only weapon you have. Is the JBPA going to be willing to go to the mat on stuff or be another mealy mouthed union who says one thing and does another?

A350

 

[A350]

Rez:

I felt the union was FUBAR and after watching several meetings and several "administrations", knew it was doomed to fail from the beginning.

A350

 

[coogebeachhotel]

Who is going to protect your butt when you roll off a runway?

A committee?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez:

I felt the union was FUBAR and after watching several meetings and several "administrations", knew it was doomed to fail from the beginning.

A350

And I agreed.... the problem is pilots want unions to be autocratic and mx-free.. IOW they want the milk for free.... they wnat results without the effort

You are right about JBPA dues... it will need to be at 3%. One reason ALPA dues is 1.95% is because different pilot groups support each other at different times....

Interestingly.. the Airtran pilots are looking for National support..... IBT maybe... or ALPA...


I am not sure how the jetblue pilots are going to make it in the 21st Century. Even SWA is realizing their market niche is going away. They are going to have to play the international market.

What happens if Jetblue gets bought out? What happens when Congress changes Federal law? When ICAO changes policy. JB management is represented by the ATA in Congress and at ICAO, but jB pilots are not.

The next 5-10 years is going to be very defining for the Air Line Pilot Profession. Luckily there is an incoming Admin that will favor us... but in 4-8 years it could change..

There will be a continuing non stop effort by management to turn our profession into a job. Unfortunately JB and VA management are slowly taking away professional status...

You guys have to stop the slide.....

 

[coogebeachhotel]

And I agreed.... the problem is pilots want unions to be autocratic and mx-free.. IOW they want the milk for free.... they wnat results without the effort

You are right about JBPA dues... it will need to be at 3%. One reason ALPA dues is 1.95% is because different pilot groups support each other at different times....

Interestingly.. the Airtran pilots are looking for National support..... IBT maybe... or ALPA...


I am not sure how the jetblue pilots are going to make it in the 21st Century. Even SWA is realizing their market niche is going away. They are going to have to play the international market.

What happens if Jetblue gets bought out? What happens when Congress changes Federal law? When ICAO changes policy. JB management is represented by the ATA in Congress and at ICAO, but jB pilots are not.

The next 5-10 years is going to be very defining for the Air Line Pilot Profession. Luckily there is an incoming Admin that will favor us... but in 4-8 years it could change..

There will be a continuing non stop effort by management to turn our profession into a job. Unfortunately JB and VA management are slowly taking away professional status...

You guys have to stop the slide.....

The Jonestown mentality of some Blue guys is scary. The zombie brigade

F&H is all over this thread btw

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

F&H can pound sand!

 

[A350]

Cooge:

Ask anyone of our pilots who have been involved in an "incident" of some kind and they will tell you the support they received was way beyond expectations....

A350